Open 579: Pick Your (Chocolate) Power -- Game Over

[droog]

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.

scum have daytalk

[droog]

@davesaz: Also, as trust tells are banned, you might wanna read up to make sure and contact the mod and not us.

@farside: It's an extra lynch if we lynch town. Lynches are good, especially since leashing the vengeful essentially gives us a redo if they flip town. 2 town COULD be dead but we face that danger with any lynch.
And if the venge is scum then it's just a waste of time.

Here's my idea:

If we L-1 someone and they claim vengeful, we agree to lynch that person no matter what because leaving them alive puts them in the scum's hands and we don't want to get into a NK WIFOM discussion of why they're alive the next day. At that point, we start voting on who they should vengekill. If you're a town vengeful, you need to know that giving town discussion on kills is absolutely best for town.

@Alchemist: Pressure vote is meh, wgeurts could just not be online. Don't like it.

something about this screams scum to me
the helpful "trust tells are banned contact the mod"
the explication on setup theory
'wgeurts could just not be online'
your vengeful proposal

all things that scum would perform to say
'look at how much im helping town'

[Aneninen]

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.

scum have daytalk

That's true. However, what really disturbed me was eg. her 40. She tried to explained that those roles are not scummy. That may be true – but, she just ignored the possibility that towns could take those roles too just for hindering the scums.

[Aneninen]

I disagree with your MathDino-read.

[droog]

something about this screams scum to me

all things that scum would perform to say
'look at how much im helping town'

do you disagree with my premise
(("scum do things to say 'look at how much im helping town"))

that im applying it to math dino in this instance

or that im scum reading him at all

[Aneninen]

I don't think he's scum, eg. because of his 85, I think his intent to stop the Vig-conversation was genuine.

[droog]

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.

scum have daytalk

That's true. However, what really disturbed me was eg. her 40. She tried to explained that those roles are not scummy. That may be true – but, she just ignored the possibility that towns could take those roles too just for hindering the scums.

i dont understand
surely not every possibility occurs to everyone
whats scummy about it?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Siveure is being Siveure.

YAAAAAY.

Scratch the entire vig discussion then. However, I still think all this applies to vengeful. If someone claims vengeful, we should immediately start voting on who they should shoot IMO. And... scream at them if they don't shoot town's choice?

I think trying to get people to follow a majority decided plan for vigs is naive. Expecting it for vengefuls is absolutely insane, because there's no incentive at all for them to follow you. If I was a vengeful and a conf-town told me who to shoot and I had a scum read, I'd be running off my own read. And what you're proposing is worse than that, because a majority of players is not conf-town. And town will probably be/get a little apathetic on voting for something that isn't guaranteed at all.

I'm kindof seeing what droog sees on math and not really of a mind that it's anything other than paranoia. What he's doing can be scum but overly helpful townie can just as easily be town. More null than anything.

[Alchemist21]

@Ane, I don't understand your sentence responding to my 52, "according to site rules I can't explain why." What were you saying with that statement?

[Mathdino]

MathDino, 63, why is Druuge incredibly town? Why are 37 and 61 so town?
Amy, 65 so, you dislike discussing theories and you've still done that. Hmmmmmm... and in 67 I think you misrepresented Venrob.
MathDino, 85, good idea, stop that discussion.
By the way, do you want a trust tell? Here it comes!

Spoiler:

You Have Been Pigeoned!

Hint: you can see this pigeon ONLY IF I'm town, OR if I'm scum. Trust me, this tell works all the time![/img]

Deleted everything I'm not responding to.

On droog, I can't explain much more than I already have. 61 shows clear scumhunting. That said, his recent 'too townish to be town' read is weird, though it does seem like something he'd come up with from what I know of his thought process. Regardless, replacing him with you as top townread.
Agree on Amy.
On the vig discussion, I don't think PRs are stupid enough to out themselves during setup spec, especially since it's pretty easy to WIFOM the scum. I think setup spec is healthy if only to generate plans. But again, if you want to preserve the roles of the people most likely to have gotten PRs, we can always leave setup spec to the bottom of the draft order; scum's not exactly looking there.
On the trust tell... I think this guy's not a serial killer, everyone.

[Mathdino]

@droog: Remember the argument I was obsessed with in 574? Namely: Is what I'm doing

inconsistent

with town, or is it simply consistent with scum? Because if it's consistent with both, what you're saying doesn't really hold much ground.
On the 'helpful townie' thing, I basically need to be involved and responding to people to stay on top of it. Side effect of extraversion. If I DON'T respond to people constantly and get input, I'm liable to forget things.

@Siveure: Mehhh. I find inexperienced town killing roles pretty irritating tbh, since lynches are inherently more accurate than shots in the literal dark. And you're right, majority isn't conf town. However, majority is all we have to get a lynch and that's not conftown either.
Lynching is good for town.

[droog]

'too townish to be town'

no, thats not it
its that your behavior is filled with moments scum would love to point at
"im discussing the setup in a really good way that's definitely pro-town"
etc. i went through a few of those already

so to reverse my point:
in all your posts i havent seen anything that convinces me of town-motivation

[droog]

If I DON'T respond to people constantly and get input, I'm liable to forget things.

we're alike
when im not posting in the thread its hard for me to keep up

[Mathdino]

Fair enough droog. You should know that trying to point at ANYTHING I wrote and trying to tell you all it's town would be scummy in itself.
So would your read on me be more accurately described as null then if nothing convinces you I'm town so far?

In other news, it's kind of refreshing to see someone who doesn't just townread or scumread me solely for effort, haha.

[davesaz]

I have mixed feelings on the setup speculation. Past results don't necessarily predict the future, for several reasons. I think hunting scum by behavior is much more accurate than hunting by setup. And when people claim I think it would be a big mistake to read alignment solely from the claimed role. But general discussion of strategies can be useful at times. I can occasionally read scum from the options they leave out of strategy discussions.

Mathdino, was there anything specific which led you to respond the way you did to my comment regarding the possible trust tell?

Aneninen, is there any particular reason you mangle people's names? I have found it disconcerting.

Flubber's RVS is not out of character for him, IMO. I think there will be a lot more to read from his 2nd round of comments.

[Mathdino]

I've never argued setup spec should be the foundation for scumhunting, and I actually argued against reading based on claims. You're basically mirroring my opinion; if someone tries to ONLY use setup spec, I'll be more than a bit weirded out. Setup spec should

supplement

scumhunting, just as setup supplements the game.

I don't know what you're asking me, I just found your talking about trust tells without researching and doing so in thread to be pretty bad. It's useless; if it's not a trust tell, doesn't matter, and if it is, you're asking for the slot to be modkilled due to alignment compromising.

We have differing opinions on Flubber's meta.

For those who've played with Flubber, can you link to his RVS behaviour please?

[Mathdino]

Addendum: Your lines of questioning suck, no offence. Your thoughts on setup spec and Flubber are enough to stop me from scumreading you, but yeah, those questions along with the paragraph on setup spec that mostly parrots popular opinion is kinda useless.

[davesaz]

I often post my opinion without regard to whether it happens to match things that others have posted. I don't see having similar opinions to others as being alignment indicative, unless that's the only thing someone posts.

[Aneninen]

Okay, Druuge, here's an Amy-mix.

Spoiler:

Mathdino, why are you so sure of vig/pgo/vengeful roles being taken by scum? And if someone claimed one of those later on in the game would you be more inclined to lynch them? Surely vig and vengeful would help town by eliminating scum/idiots. And PGO... I guess it depends on who picks that, but it's a potentially useful role. The opposite is obviously beneficial to scum, but they're not exclusively scum roles.

If you're scum then this is a nice way early on to start lining up mislynches for later on in the game.

Why is she telling that? Does she have any of those PRs? Does she know who's the Vig and/or the Vengeful because she's scum? I can see no reasons for a townie making a post like that. If she's town-Vig/Vengeful (most probably Vengeful, it's unlikely that she has the Vig-PR as being 8th in the draft) she should not talk about that at all. Or at least I would do so.

I'm not throwing out reasons to be suspicious. While I dislike theory debates, they're pretty null to me. And I can throw out statements without said statement automatically being attached to a read going one way or the other. It doesn't signify a lack of conviction. I'm not going to make a non-RVS vote for someone for one post.

She was involved in those "theory debates", at least twice in four posts (the other one was 48) yet she wrote that she dislikes them. Also, she had no RVS and it's not entirely typical to performe an RVS on page 2. I know it's very minor but what if she doesn't want to get "enemies"? What's that "I'm not throwing out reasons to be suspicious" part?

Did I miss someone asking for your scum history or are you just throwing this out here?
Because if this is out of the blue then saying 'I'm always scumread' is sure a great way to get people off your back for a while.

Posting a history is null in itself. I don't think Venrob did so to suggest that he's always scumread. She's trying to make a case out of nothing here. She tries to defend her "case" in 71 and 74 without voting. Yet again, trying to stay out of trouble...?

Edit: Okay, so what was the point of that statement I quoted?

If you're scum then this is a nice way early on to start lining up mislynches for later on in the game.

It's a statement, not an accusation. Don't know if you've noticed, but there's an if up there.
It's me thinking out loud. If you are scum then this is why you'd have posted that.

Appeasing Mathdino (maybe) and making an excuse for forthcoming scummy posts (perhaps) as for the "It's me thinking out loud" part.

@Ane, I don't understand your sentence responding to my 52, "according to site rules I can't explain why." What were you saying with that statement?

It's not allowed to talk about ongoing games.

On the trust tell... I think this guy's not a serial killer, everyone.

Wrong! I was an SK in this game on a non-mafia dedicated site:

Spoiler:

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/foru ... zawadx/84/

The name of the game is: Find the Pigeon!
On the other hand: since two of you are townreading Druuge, I believe you. At least, for now.

Aneninen, is there any particular reason you mangle people's names? I have found it disconcerting.

F-ck that, 7 out of 10 players are unable to spell my name, sooooooooo, let me have some fun. Period.

[droog]

Fair enough droog.

You should know that trying to point at ANYTHING I wrote and trying to tell you all it's town would be scummy in itself.

So would your read on me be more accurately described as null then if nothing convinces you I'm town so far?

In other news, it's kind of refreshing to see someone who doesn't just townread or scumread me solely for effort, haha.

mafiascum has such weird standards
this is the only website i play on where bolded is a common belief

[Aneninen]

Huh?

[droog]

I have mixed feelings on the setup speculation. Past results don't necessarily predict the future, for several reasons.

I think hunting scum by behavior is much more accurate than hunting by setup.

And when people claim I think it would be a big mistake to read alignment solely from the claimed role. But general discussion of strategies can be useful at times. I can occasionally read scum from the options they leave out of strategy discussions.

Mathdino, was there anything specific which led you to respond the way you did to my comment regarding the possible trust tell?

Aneninen, is there any particular reason you mangle people's names? I have found it disconcerting.

Flubber's RVS is not out of character for him, IMO. I think there will be a lot more to read from his 2nd round of comments.

i agree, hence why i stepped out of setup speculation
((although i would be very interested still
to know if scum in other iterations of this setup
placed a high priority on that jailkeeper/tracker slot))

however it did get us out of rvs effectively

[droog]

Huh?

dino is saying that he talking about his own behavior as town would be scummy
unrelated to the game, i think this is only something taht ever happens on ms

on poin though, when i say scum like to say 'look at how pro-town i am'
i guess that's really imprecise of me
scum don't actually say 'im so pro-town go me'
but this is how they often project themselves
and how they arrange their posts

it's decent scumplay to only make actions that could be interpreted as townie

[Mathdino]

MS is much more focused on offence than defence. I think trying to prove oneself as town is both useless and EXTREMELY WIFOMable. The moment you try to use something you've done for towncred, it becomes something easily faked by a scum-you.

You should all sheep E.B.O.N.Y. Magazine's case on Amy if you didn't believe me earlier. It's a good one.

[droog]

anem, i like your style and i like your amy case
until dino does something that pings me more i'm going to sheep it

VOTE: amy fowler
now that i understand it i especially agree with you re: #40