Open 579: Pick Your (Chocolate) Power -- Game Over


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Post Post #475 (ISO) » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:33 pm

Post by TheAdrienC »

In post 472, Flubbernugget wrote:But why should I think you're seeing it from a town perspective.


I don't care if you see it coming from a town perspective or not. It's called scumhunting. I saw something that didn't sit right with me as a town thing for you to do and I'm calling you on it. Hence, you are my top scum read. I tend not to worry too much if someone I feel is scum agrees with me or thinks me suspecting them is coming from a town perspective.

Think about this, if you saw me jumping from wagon to wagon and saying I'm just abandoning this wagon on going to another under the guise, "I suck, I'm sheeping this guy", what would YOU be doing?

Oh and if calling something out like that which could be a scummy act on your part is something that isn't coming from a town perspective, then we really need to rethink how this game is played.
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Post Post #476 (ISO) » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:59 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Siv has updated his wiki (nothing gets put on da wiki without me knowing) so I'm going to meta his more recent games. Also, pist your fudge top 3 reads people!!!
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Post Post #477 (ISO) » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:02 pm

Post by Mathdino »

I'd have to say
Cloud Atlas
,
Jurassic Park
, and
Frankenstein
. Maybe
Game of Thrones
.
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Post Post #478 (ISO) » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:03 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Top 3 reads doesn't apply for me. I have 2 scenarios with very different gamestates in my eyes.

Read my posts, basically.
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Post Post #479 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:04 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

I still think wgeurts is town for this though.
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Post Post #480 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:32 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

In post 325, insanity018 wrote:
Votecount 1.7


Siveure DtTrikyp
(5): wgeurts, Mathdino, Alchemist21, Ankamius, davesaz
wgeurts
(2): Siveure DtTrikyp, Flubbernugget
Aneninen
(2): Amy Farrah Fowler, droog
Alchemist21
(1): farside22
Flubbernugget
(1): Venrob

Not Voting
(3): Aneninen, TheAdrienC, Romitelli


So this is when my wagon really gets going.

In post 464, insanity018 wrote:
Votecount 1.11


Siveure DtTrikyp
(5): Alchemist21, Ankamius, davesaz, Venrob, wgeurts
Alchemist21
(3): Siveure DtTrikyp, farside22, Mathdino
Aneninen
(2): Amy Farrah Fowler, droog
wgeurts
(1): Flubbernugget
Flubbernugget
(1): TheAdrienC

Not Voting
(2): Aneninen, Romitelli


And this is the most recent vote-count.

If you don't count the non-siv wagons, which tbh really havent done much, there's been very little progress in the past 3-4 days. 10 players' votes are in the same place lol (sure, some of them probably moved in the meantime, but not more than 1 or 2). Wgeurts is trying to do something to get the game going again. It's not going to work, but he's trying. Actually, file adrien under that too.

On that note, can people please do stuff? Like, stop screwing around on vanity wagons waiting for everyone else to see the light and make them see it? Something?

Flubber, it depends on the game in particular but the self-preservation mentality probably has to do with the pressure I'm under.

Adrien, afaict the case on me is similar stuff to what you're pushing flubber for. I think..
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Post Post #481 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:31 am

Post by davesaz »

Running through the players. Doing this in chunks to try to avoid text walls.

I previously posted my reasons for thinking Siv is scum. Haven't really seen anything to change it. An analysis of the wagon stall should be worthwhile.

From what little Romitelli has posted, I get a weak scum. He questions Amy about the setup speculation. Points out a contradiction between two of Amy's posts, which can be paraphrased as "Mathdino dragging out theory discussion" and "There was nothing else to talk about yet".
At best it isn't really a contradiction, and I lean toward this being scum pushing a false/fake contradiction.

Venrob has substantial meta for a chronic internet problem. I didn't like the other parts of his AtE. Overall I can't get a solid read, very null.

I did not like the way that farside was approaching the vig / vengeful discussion. The "if I were a vengeful I would kill X" thing seemed like role fishing. I didn't understand how droog's "no confidence in Amy wagon" post was scummy, as town could also have low confidence. But showed good analysis, and the overall feeling is townish.

Ankamius feels town. The analysis in feels legit.

Wgeurts feels town. My vote on him was only for pressure, and he handled it well. His efforts to get / keep discussion going seem legit.
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Post Post #482 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:47 am

Post by Alchemist21 »

In post 474, wgeurts wrote:
In post 453, wgeurts wrote:
wgeurts

Flubbernugget
droog
davesaz
Alchemist21
Ankamius
Amy Farrah Fowler
Siveure DtTrikyp

Aneninen
Romitelli
TheAdrienC
Mathdino
farside22

Venrob

Those that aren't bolded post your top 3 scum reads and provide reasons.


Top read is still Siv. First reason is because he said it was OK to not scumhunt. Now we have him claiming Vanilla after trying to get doc, followed by him saying in 356 that doc wouldn't be priority for top 3 town in the draft, and saying that the slot is likely a roleblocker instead and doubting the doc/roleblocker slot is town in 385.

I still don't like Dave that much. The last post he just made looks more town, but not enough to make me lean town on him yet. Still looks like he could be trying to fake his way through the game.

I don't really have a 3rd read. My gut would say Flubber, but he reminds me of randomidget and Gaiden, so I'm a little weary of a scumread there. Next choice would be Romitelli due to his lurking, but the 2 prods make me think his lurking isn't scummy, so he's null for me.
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Post Post #483 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:16 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

Why the hell is ANY of the stuff you called out on me scummy?
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Post Post #484 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:16 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

^ That's @ alchemist btw.
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Post Post #485 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:35 am

Post by davesaz »

Droog feels weak town. The observation that Mathdino gets cold feet on every wagon is a good one. Meta analysis of flubber is accurate from what I've seen.
But the vote on Aneninen and stating in that he'd like a compromise lynch will turn scummy if Siv is lynched and flips scum.

Flubber is null leaning town, via meta.

Adrien pretty thin, not enough to read. null

Alchemist is pretty interesting.
points out double standard on sheeping. more about the sheeping. But did this double standard actually go anywhere? I don't think so, would have to look.
rules out Mathdino and wgeurts being scum buddies based on draft order. I'm not sure I buy this completely. Scum could pick the same number on purpose to make people think they can't be buddies. A scum team with one high and two low would make fairly good sense. This makes me want to check interactions between alchemist, wgeurts, and Mathdino.

Alchemist makes a point that scum might bus Siv, if siv is scum and got null. Good point... But in my experience, scum often point out potential reasons to bus when they are bussing, so that the suspect pool is larger after the scum flip. So pointing out the opportunity to bus is actually null or slightly scummy, not the obvious town you'd think on the surface.

All things considered, I get a weak scum on Alchemist. It needs associations to make it a real case, which we don't have yet.
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Post Post #486 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:31 am

Post by farside22 »

In post 469, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 446, farside22 wrote:
In post 438, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 432, farside22 wrote:
In post 431, Flubbernugget wrote:He wasn't trying to excuse his play in the last pyp.


Why is that scummy?


Not playing to town meta, not taking responsibility for his actions, playing defensively, etc, etc.

Are you asking this out of disagreement or asking out of thinking I'm a moron?



I'm missing what your putting down.
How does not excusing his play in pyp make him scummy this game?



Why does he have a self-preservation mentality he didn't have as town?


I don't know.
What I know is what siv sai here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6414560

I don't dive into meta for too often because people can be misinterpreted. I recall vezo and I agruing about meta and how I play and how he played. We thought because of our meta of each other, the other was scum and we were both town.
I have to remind myself when I play with someone I know, they change playstyles for whatever reason. I want to scum read them for there differences, but I step back occasionally and say what kind of case are they making? How are they coming across in there views?
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #487 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:36 am

Post by davesaz »

Amy's and engage in point by point with Aneninen. is trying to extend the case on Aneninen. and respond to criticism of her case on Anen by asking her critics to point out exactly where she's a hypocrite. This seems to be a reasonable approach. Weak town read.

Aneninen's posting style is a mixture of matching what I have seen before (but cannot be quoted) and different from what I've seen before. Previous experience has tended toward longer posts. I have seen some tunneling. The analysis in looks town motivated, though scum could also do that if it would either clear a buddy or frame a townie. It may be strange to say this on someone with so many posts, but my read is null. I don't know how to read the change in posting style, and some of the posts which seem town have plausible (and perhaps even expected) scum possibilities.

------------------------------------

I saved Mathdino for last because there is so much information.
Lots of setup speculation. I'm not really comfortable with town trying to direct vig / vengeful because of the high probability that outspoken scum could control it by urging town to make bad suggestions. looks busy but boils down to null reads. Votes Amy in for "doing x would be useful as scum", which is a pretty null thing to say. More vig/vengeful discussion.

Post "I'd like farside and Hayate to be town" jumped out at me, this always strikes me as odd. Post could be role fishing. switches to wgeurts, but would get back on Amy if necessary. unvotes wgeurts, worried about wagons forming easily. (I disagree, the time to be worried is when they dissolve easily). Says in that the amy wagon was different.

creeped out about people joining wagons he starts. This bothered me a bit, as town I want people to join my wagons. I can see that it's about the speed of the wagons, but even that is questionable to me as others could easily be reacting to what they see happening in the thread, not to who started the wagon.

is the post where he splits the player list into groups which "can't be scum together". This post is one which looks townie but is probably more useful to scum. is again on the setup speculation. unvotes (from Siv) votes Alchemist, doesn't have a "top 3" -- has 2 lists based on flips. Looking back at that...
post 375 wrote:
If Siv's scum: Siveure, Romitelli, Amy, wgeurts, Adrien, Ankamius
If Siv's town: Alchemist, Aneninen, Amy, wgeurts, Flubbernugget, Ankamius


Which boils down to siv+romitelli+amy/wgeurts vs. Alchemist+Anen+amy/wgeurts. I find it interesting that the 3rd scum position, in both of these lists, is Amy or wgeurts, who he unvoted as being creeped out about how fast the wagons went. If he really thought they were scummy, why jump off the wagons so fast?

Overall, I get a weak scum on Mathdino.
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Post Post #488 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:44 am

Post by Ankamius »

Top 3 scumreads:

Siveure DtTrikyp: My ISO really shouldn't leave any room for doubt as to why I'm scumreading him
Romitelli: Says nothing when he contributes. Pretty much classic scumlurking.
Flubbernugget/davesaz: Both are pretty weak reads overall and roughly equivalent in read strength; Flubber for #469/470 and davesaz for the earlier posts in his ISO I mentioned before.
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Post Post #489 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:45 am

Post by Ankamius »

wgeurts is probably town but the metadiving thing is maddening.
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Post Post #490 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:51 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

Okay, legit question, why don't we lynch romitelli?

VOTE: romitelli
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Post Post #491 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:52 am

Post by droog »

other games slowed so i will finally get to this tonight/tomorrow
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Post Post #492 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:58 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

Also pretty sure math's list isn't ordered by scumminess.
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Post Post #493 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:59 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

Wait, why am I assuming that?
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Post Post #494 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:02 am

Post by davesaz »

In post 488, Ankamius wrote:davesaz for the earlier posts in his ISO I mentioned before.

I don't really get this. I pointed out something of the form "anyone knows if I don't do x it's scummy" (in a game state where we were basically still in RVS), and then posted that I had researched it and that it wasn't unusual. How is that in any way scummy? From someone with meta saying that I'm getting old and I tend to post immediately when I see something, vs. trying to remember that I need to research it? (That meta may not yet be in a usable state, TBH)
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Post Post #495 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:09 am

Post by Mathdino »

Hey. Hey davesaz. Couple things.

By 'check interactions between Alchemist, wgeurts, and Mathdino', you're claiming that that has a chance at being the scumteam? I think it's notable that bagging PRs is generally more important than trying to WIFOM everyone; people will inevitably ask "Why isn't this conftown not dead yet" and if the scum give up PRs, we'd have more than enough to start working at the puzzle. It's just not a reasonable move, PRs are extremely important this game.

Your definition of rolefishing is a bit wonky. farside's vengeful thing doesn't read like rolefishing at all.

Also, I feel there's a miscommunication between you and like half my posts, will get to that. Just one thing though; in scumreading me, I'm supposing you agree with Alchemist in that Siveure is a highly bussable scumbuddy?
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Post Post #496 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:15 am

Post by Ankamius »

The kitty case makes absolutely no sense and there's no way you can link that to alignment either directly or indirectly, making it a bogus point. The argument that it helps end RVS can't really be used either since your ISO#4 has very little content for the amount of words in it. The entire sequence doesn't really make sense from a town mindset.
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Post Post #497 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:21 am

Post by Mathdino »

In post 487, davesaz wrote:I saved Mathdino for last because there is so much information.
Lots of setup speculation. I'm not really comfortable with town trying to direct vig / vengeful because of the high probability that outspoken scum could control it by urging town to make bad suggestions. looks busy but boils down to null reads. Votes Amy in for "doing x would be useful as scum", which is a pretty null thing to say. More vig/vengeful discussion.

Post "I'd like farside and Hayate to be town" jumped out at me, this always strikes me as odd. Post could be role fishing. switches to wgeurts, but would get back on Amy if necessary. unvotes wgeurts, worried about wagons forming easily. (I disagree, the time to be worried is when they dissolve easily). Says in that the amy wagon was different.

creeped out about people joining wagons he starts. This bothered me a bit, as town I want people to join my wagons. I can see that it's about the speed of the wagons, but even that is questionable to me as others could easily be reacting to what they see happening in the thread, not to who started the wagon.

is the post where he splits the player list into groups which "can't be scum together". This post is one which looks townie but is probably more useful to scum. is again on the setup speculation. unvotes (from Siv) votes Alchemist, doesn't have a "top 3" -- has 2 lists based on flips. Looking back at that...
post 375 wrote:
If Siv's scum: Siveure, Romitelli, Amy, wgeurts, Adrien, Ankamius
If Siv's town: Alchemist, Aneninen, Amy, wgeurts, Flubbernugget, Ankamius


Which boils down to siv+romitelli+amy/wgeurts vs. Alchemist+Anen+amy/wgeurts. I find it interesting that the 3rd scum position, in both of these lists, is Amy or wgeurts, who he unvoted as being creeped out about how fast the wagons went. If he really thought they were scummy, why jump off the wagons so fast?

Overall, I get a weak scum on Mathdino.

Just checking your evidence I'm seeing a lot of misrep.

very clearly has a scumread on Amy, townread on droog, scumread on Flubber, townread on Aneninen. I think you're pulling the "random voting is pretty null" and extrapolating that to the rest of the post.

I disagree on Amy, the idea is that it's mudslinging without actually committing to a scumread.

... well of course it jumped out at you, I was repeating exactly what wgeurts said and applying it to myself, trying to show how it's not really telling. You're gonna have to explain better what makes that weird. farside and Hayate looked like pretty legit players, but also good enough to have faked everything they'd done at the time.

As scum you don't want people to join your wagons? Last I checked, goal of scum was to survive and mislynch. You're comparing our playstyles where it's not applicable; I'm fairly cautious especially when weirded out. The speed of those wagons, the majority of the votes of which were without reason and pretty much sheeping, was just bad. Read my posts before you set up a straw man.

Please explain how is more useful to scum. The idea of "looks townie but is probably more useful to scum" is something that really needs to be backed up with something, because otherwise it's a "too townish to be town" argument.
And yeah Siveure is correct in that that's not an ordered list. That's me picking who the most likely scum is of each of the groups I created. If you read the list you'll see that; I'm not gonna call wgeurts town and then propose that he's my 4th top scumread, lol.

I want to scumread you for misrepping me in like everything, but that doesn't have much scum motivation, so I'm still going with derptown with a couple projection issues. Don't read someone based off playstyle, davesaz. Especially don't read someone by comparing to
yourself
as town/scum.
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Post Post #498 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:31 am

Post by droog »

In post 497, Mathdino wrote:I want to scumread you for misrepping me in like everything, but that doesn't have much scum motivation, so I'm still going with derptown with a couple projection issues. Don't read someone based off playstyle, davesaz. Especially don't read someone by comparing to yourself as town/scum.


oh man
i havent looked through this argument too carefully
and will reread tonight

but 'your argument is bad but you're still probably town'
is a classic scum defense
it is the best way to neutralize an attack on you without appearing scummy yourself
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Post Post #499 (ISO) » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:36 am

Post by Mathdino »

It's unlikely he's scum with either Alchemist or Siveure, and it's HIGHLY likely one of them is scum, so that's definitely a huge factor.

His reads also look pretty townish in general, they seem like the type that he'd find hard to fake as scum, even though as I said a lot of his arguments aren't too good.

Do you disagree or feel that conclusion is unfounded? The fact that scum say that doesn't make it inconsistent with town.

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