Open 577: Hope Plus One! (GAME OVER - SCUM WIN)

[acryon]

I could say the same thing about the fact that his misrepping of me served little purpose considering pretty much no one agreed with him in the first place.

Well not exactly, because subtle misrepresentation is a proven way for scum to drive mis-lynches.

And overaggressiveness is a proven way to get yourself lynched.

Eh, I don't know that the two are on equal footing, at least in my experience. Obviously the data doesn't really exists to properly compare how often the two achieve the particular outcomes, so we will have to agree to disagree on that point I think.

[TellTaleHeart]

I wouldn't say it's simply for playstyle. Aggressiveness and domineering is certainly present in scum. However, the way he's doing it leaves him very open to backlash, especially the way he was tunneling me for fairly minute details.

I think "the way he's doing it" says a lot more about his personality than the contents of his role card.

I guess the root of

my

issue with House is that he's another one who's hard to pin down in terms of purpose and what he's trying to do. There's a fair number of posts that are just kind of there to take up space. I actually thought House's reason for voting GGG in post 579 was valid, but it dried up for no apparent reason. I don't care for the latching onto acryon's Rudolph scumread, especially for the given reason of "white knighting." It doesn't seem like MathDino's fairly aggressive defense sent up that many red flags for House and I'm left wondering what why the discrepancy in treatment exists.

[Mathdino]

Aggressive defence of who? C+A?

Definitely see why you may have issues with me this game. I need a perceived townsperson to talk to if there's no one already confirmed. Wisdom was it in 575 (yes I know I was wrong) and C+A is it this game. I will say that I'm much more confident in this read than the Wisdom one.

[TellTaleHeart]

I could say the same thing about the fact that his misrepping of me served little purpose considering pretty much no one agreed with him in the first place.

I just don't see the scum motivation in a lot of his posts.

MathDino, we're already having the

exact same problems

from Friends and Enemies because you've made up your mind that House is town and that's that. I'm giving you an outside perspective on it and you're shooting it down in a matter of minutes and it makes me feel like it's because you think I'm stupid and I don't have anything worth saying.

It's not a good feeling.

Please let my posts sink in and then if there's something I'm completely missing or you think I overlooked, please point it out (preferably with evidence to back it up).

[Mathdino]

AtE much?

I don't think you're stupid. I already said that your read on Wake was excellent. I just don't think the read on House holds much ground.

I want to hear Wake before we move forward with this read. Unfortunately you haven't really said anything on House I haven't seen before this game. Doesn't mean it's stupid or pointless, I just don't agree with it.

[acryon]

Aggressive defence of who? C+A?

Definitely see why you may have issues with me this game. I need a perceived townsperson to talk to if there's no one already confirmed. Wisdom was it in 575 (yes I know I was wrong) and C+A is it this game. I will say that I'm much more confident in this read than the Wisdom one.

I just want to echo what TTH was saying. Don't treat anyone unconfirmed like they are confirmed, because that is exactly what scum is hoping you will do with them.

Maybe this is just the problem with hydra in general and why I don't care for them, but it seems silly that we are discussing them like two separate players. If that is how they are treated, how is it any different than having two players that are the same alignment?

[Mathdino]

It's exactly the same thing, haha. The only difference is they share a vote and know each other to be the same alignment.

[acryon]

It's exactly the same thing, haha. The only difference is they share a vote and know each other to be the same alignment.

The existence of hydras makes zero sense to me, but I digress. A question that truly affects us: If Wake were to just never show up again, does that big post of his just get completely ignored? Seems crappy. It's like an inactive player that can never be replaced.

[TellTaleHeart]

AtE much?

No, it's

a major hatred of mine

(that's carried over from real life) and don't give me whatever MafiaScum's little cutsie 3 letter acronym for it is because that's not what it is at all.

[Mathdino]

Cool. That's your pet peeve.

That doesn't mean that everyone is triggering it, though. If people disagreeing with you is a pet peeve of yours, that's not really on me. But I always do my best to separate the argument from the person.

@acryon: If he just leaves, then I'll look over his posts with a fresh look and wipe my read on C+A, okay? You guys can walk me through exactly what makes what he's done inconsistent with town.

[TellTaleHeart]

I've got few things to think about, but in the meantime, the only way to go is forward.

VOTE: GGG

[copper223]

I'm reading TTH pretty town here, so I'm interested to see what C+A and Wake in particular has to say about her points.

@TTH
What did you think about my tonwread of C+A and House in particular in 615?

[TellTaleHeart]

Cool. That's your pet peeve.

That doesn't mean that everyone is triggering it, though. If people disagreeing with you is a pet peeve of yours, that's not really on me. But I always do my best to separate the argument from the person.

I'm going to make one more attempt at this.
People not listening because they are so sure of themselves is my pet peeve.

That's where I'm leaving this. If you want the last word go ahead and take it because if you're reading this as anything other than me giving you a pretty well-deserved kick in the pants then there's nothing more I can say to you.

[TellTaleHeart]

I haven't changed my read on C+A, I think House in particular is likely town, you can really see from his latest posts that what he was doing before was putting on his "scumhunting persona" and basing his interactions on his notions of how town should play.

At first blush, I don't really get what you're saying. I'll think on it.

In the meantime, if you would like to detail the read any more, that would be helpful.

[copper223]

@TTH
Sure, if you check House's games you will likely notice a very dogmatic approach to mafia, he seems to have a list of do's and don'ts on subjects like lurkers, bans, townblocs, RVS... and if you "don't" he will call you out for it, regardless of what exactly you are saying, like Acryon with: bans are not alignment indicative

but

... and then he gives a read on Pastro, House just ignores the but and slams Acryon for using bans to get reads, he does this on multiple occasions with players he townreads or scumreads. That was the focus of Acryon's scumread based on misrepping, to me that just shows he is scumhunting in his own way, what I called his "persona", so it's more likely town indicative. You can see a complete change in the way he writes when he explains he is not an experienced player, i.e. when he is not in House scumhunting mode.

Your point on read consistency and being aimless is totally different though, and I'd like to see where that line of questioning goes.

[GGG]

Post 323 from GGG is a really odd line-up of reads that clash at points. The notreallygood scumread clashes with the nullreads on MathDino and Gravity and the scumread on Rudolph. The comment about townreading acryon for his readslist (post 149) is also strange given that out of 11 slots, he agrees with acryon on only 3 of them. I'm also not sure how the notreallygood vote follows from the reads list.

I'm still thinking about what kind of logical framework could have been used to obtain this reads list, but there isn't an obvious one.

The answer is no logical framework. I had never replaced into a game before and did a very poor job of it. 388I did a read through made some notes and posted without checking any kind of logical consistency between early reads.

[GGG]

I've got few things to think about, but in the meantime, the only way to go is forward.

VOTE: GGG

Can you outline your reasons for voting for me? From what I can tell you didn't like my first post and you didn't like my NRG push.

I agree my first post sucked and have addressed it. I also stand by my position that the correct play if the day wasn't going to be paused lynching the scummiest inactive was the right play. I should have pushed it harder, instead we got the acryon claim.

[Wake]

Aiming to be active tomorrow. I am not in good health right now.

[copper223]

I also stand by my position that the correct play if the day wasn't going to be paused lynching the scummiest inactive was the right play.

This sounds a lot like choosing the path of least resistance to me, which is what many as scum see as the best way to lock in mislynches. Didn't you have any scumreads on the players active at the time?

[Bookitty]

I'm currently fighting off a cold, so my reread has not been as productive as I'd like.

Mathdino, can you expand on and explain your townread on Cane + Able? Explain it to me like I'm five, please.

[GGG]

I also stand by my position that the correct play if the day wasn't going to be paused lynching the scummiest inactive was the right play.

This sounds a lot like choosing the path of least resistance to me, which is what many as scum see as the best way to lock in mislynches. Didn't you have any scumreads on the players active at the time?

Yes Anen, the train was and still is going nowhere. It was also the correct play until the game was paused. Trying to lynch an inactive certainly isn't the path of least resistance as you can see no one was interested in doing it and rarely is. Also I heavily defend Acry which definately wasn't the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance would have been voting for him.

[Mathdino]

I'm currently fighting off a cold, so my reread has not been as productive as I'd like.

Mathdino, can you expand on and explain your townread on Cane + Able? Explain it to me like I'm five, please.

I don't know what else to explain to you. I feel like I've restated it and reworded it about a dozen times now, sorry. Anything else or more specific you want to know?

[Bookitty]

I have read and reread your ISO and done some contextual reading of your posts. I don't see how you went from arguing with C + A to "not feeling a lynch on C +A" to "I'm more confident on this townread than I was on Wisdom in another game." I'm asking you to walk me through your thought process to show the evolution of your read on that slot.

[texcat]

Thanks to all the subs for being here!

I'm about a third of the way through the reread (page 9) and I have to come back to this later since my attention span is nearing an end.

I'm working from townreads on MathDino (though I can already tell we're going to be having the same problems as last game), Gravity, acryon, copper, and Rudolph.

TTHeart, can you explain this read on Gravity? I agreed with his vote of Pastro, but really didn't like his unvote after NRG called him out. Very little to go on for a town read to me.


I, of course, did notice C+A asking me numerous questions. I can tell you what I was thinking at the time, but will wait to hear from Wake.

[acryon]

Hoping to hear from My Milked Eek today. He's the only replacement we haven't really heard from yet, and especially given the cloudy nature of the game-state, the fresh perspective is incredibly useful.