Open 580: Tit For Tat - Game Over!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

V O T E C O U N T

1 . 0 7

[/b]

(4)

Spitfire216 —

Netherspite, Bulbazak, T S O, Paschendale

(L-3)

(2)

davesaz —

Malakittens, acryon

(L-5)

(2)

Shinobi —

Luca Blight, Aquanim

(L-5)

(1)

WaffleGhost —

davesaz

(L-6)

(1)

Netherspite -

Shinobi

(L-6)

(2)

Not Voting —

SpitFire216, WaffleGhost

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch

Mod Notes; acryon is V/LA until 15/12

[/font]

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-12-15 23:00:00)

[Aquanim]

So... four lurkers/VLA, a bunch of stonewalling, and one player hiding behind insults. Gonna be one of those games, I see.

Anyone want to talk in the next hour?

[Aquanim]

Ah well, some other time.

[Paschendale]

@Pasch: The alternative is that scum comes up with reasons to continue their bad behavior.

That sounds an awful lot like "standing their ground and defending their actions/beliefs". The only difference seems to be your bias as an observer.

Aw, I see it, my uneasiness was how this post

He didn't really say much about my actions, like he was just jumping onto the easiest lynch.

But further investigation shows that he actually has had a considerably strong scumread on me this whole time. So it's not as out of the blue as it appears to be. So my suspicion is relieved.

You're just going to ignore the past posts where I have been talking about your actions and pretend that I haven't been criticizing you for a while? This is a pretty sad lie to try to peddle.

Does anybody else notice Spitfire trying to keep his options open?

Yes. Generally, this far into the game, town players have a few specific targets and want to pursue them. Spitfire has one incredibly week vote and apparently is pushing an OMGUS case on me. Everything else from him seems very fuzzy.

[Shinobi]

@Pasch: No it doesn't.

[davesaz]

I have time, yay. My first deep dive will focus on Aquanim. I chose him as my first deep research because of a feeling that he had been asking a lot of people their opinion on other people, and I wanted to see if that was in conjunction with scum hunting or as busy work in lieu of scum hunting.

Spoiler: stuff

Volunteers meta
daychat question
commented on the scum bussing joke, you should bus the 3rd
agrees with Mala, TSO/Never town, but not solid reads. Bothered by WaffleGhost #34
agrees with my observation that the town slip does not rule out scum (pre-empting)
Reads the scum bussing joke as town; as scum would have trouble fitting in
doesn't agree with acryon thought that some of tso/nether/mala is scum
votes acryon, lack of curiosity
asks for my read on acryon
asks spitfire why TSO is not town from the bussing joke
votes spitfire, claim that reason for scum reading tso changed
reinforces, spitfire's reason for scum reading TSO bad. Says not defending TSO
asks spitfire about acryon
spitfire gives acryon interest in pasch as town read reason. Aquanim attacks spitfire's use of that reason because pasch's interest in acryon replies is "pointless excuse for content"
returns to voting acryon, #57 looks productive but not scum hunting
Asks TSO for thoughts on anyone other than spitfire
Asks Bulbazak which is scum, him or acryon, in reply to a post with unclear references
Asks Netherspite for read on acryon
Asks spitfire for impression of Bulbazak
Notes that Bulbazak has good history as town, why would he be misreading Spitfire
Reply to acryon on "so many people talking about me"
Votes Shinobi for Netherspite portion of #222. Ignores Bulbazak portion of the same post
Pressures Shinobi to answer questions

Analysis:

• Volunteering meta seems a little off, but still null
  
• The daychat mention is not necessarily a townslip, scum could do it too. He agrees with me.
  
• The probes of Acryon, SpitFire, Shinobi show a progression of making pushes to get reactions
  
• Asks a lot of people their opinion on the players he's pressuring
  
• Engages about half of the player base, perhaps a little more than half

My read: weak town. The concern from asking other people about 3rd parties was unfounded, it was in conjunction with scum hunting. Note: I rarely have strong town this early in the game. Weak is usually about as good as it gets.

[davesaz]

I picked Acryon for my 2nd deep dive. This was initially prompted by the density of comments regarding him, by Aquanim and those who replied to the requests for reads on him.

Spoiler: stuff

First post #57 answers my questions. Finds Paschendale's answers interesting. Thinks one of the "bus jokers" may be scum.
Responds to Aquanim and Netherspite questions on 57.
More reply
More reply. Paschendale interesting because answer to Q2 differs from most others
Less frustrating to be scum
"Interesting post" was interesting to make future note of, not useful without some dialogue
After Paschendale says he was kidding, questions that it was not clearly a joke since others thought it might not be
Suspicious of Aquanim's volunteer meta
Questions Bulbazak on 128 (same post as Aquanim questioned) Goes on to question Bulbazak on why his vote is on spitfire if one of Aquanim/acryon is definitely scum.
Notes that people are talking about him instead of people they are voting
Votes me over being awkward. Strange reason to vote...
Analysis on why talking about him when people are voting Spitfire, including a reference to "no resistance to spitfire wagon"
Reiterates that scum could be in on the joking, so one of the 3 is probably scum. But not a solid read.
Notices that Paschendale mentioned a death miller, and asks why.
Replies to Nether and TSO on why spitfire is a gut town read.
Replies to Mala's "I like Acryon he's relaxed" with "scum is stressful"
Replies to Paschendale, who said he understood and didn't agree with vote on me, "my apology you didn't understand"

Analysis

• Replies to my questions. Didn't think they were contrived.
  
• Finds Paschendale's answers interesting. (I think this shows he still doesn't think my questions were contrived?)
  
• Replies a lot to others' questions
  
• Suspicious of Aquanim's volunteer meta, Bulbazak's vote not matching scum reads, people talking about him instead of their votes
  
• Votes me over being awkward, which is a really strange reason given he has scum reads on other people
  
• Gut reads spitfire as town and defends
  
• Says Scum is less frustrating, then says scum is stressful. This is a contradiction
  
• Replies to Paschendale's "I understand and don't agree" with "my apology you don't understand" which is a misrep.

Read: weak scum. Characterizing being scum as "less frustrating" in one post, and "more stressful" in another is a contradiction.
Has several scum reads, but his vote is on someone for being awkward. That happens to be me, but I'd question the vote for awkwardness when there are others who seem to be stronger scum reads, no matter who the vote was on.
Doesn't seem to be really scum hunting, especially since he's mentioning scum reads but doing nothing to advance them.

[Luca Blight]

I'm gonna try and catch up before I go to bed tonight, bear with me....

[Paschendale]

@Pasch: No it doesn't.

Then you'd better make a compelling explanation for the difference, cuz right now it just sounds like you're making stuff up in order to justify unfounded reads.

[Bulbazak]

Note: I rarely have strong town this early in the game. Weak is usually about as good as it gets.

Why did you feel the need to mention this?

Characterizing being scum as "less frustrating" in one post, and "more stressful" in another is a contradiction.

Can you quote this?

[davesaz]

Quoting as requested:

Acryon did you roll scum again?

So far I haven't lost as scum, so I wish I did. And it's overall less frustrating.

I like Acryon this game. He seems different and more relaxed

Being scum is stressful!

As for the other point, from experience I know that it's likely I'll eventually be questioned about not having strong reads.

[Shinobi]

@Pasch: No it doesn't.

Then you'd better make a compelling explanation for the difference, cuz right now it just sounds like you're making stuff up in order to justify unfounded reads.

Is this supposed to be some kind of joke?

[Shinobi]

If you really can't see that his defense is reasonable and that me saying that it's a towny defense is completely unfounded, then...lol. Just lol.

[Aquanim]

I doubt Paschendale would be asking the question if he didn't want an answer from you.

[Paschendale]

Shinobi... You said that, when confronted, town will change their mind or defend their position, and that scum will defend their position. Only you used negative language to describe scum doing it. That doesn't make the action different. You're making up a semantic difference to justify a predetermined conclusion.

That is actually pretty scummy.

[SpitFire216]

Aw, I see it, my uneasiness was how this post

He didn't really say much about my actions, like he was just jumping onto the easiest lynch.

But further investigation shows that he actually has had a considerably strong scumread on me this whole time. So it's not as out of the blue as it appears to be. So my suspicion is relieved.

You're just going to ignore the past posts where I have been talking about your actions and pretend that I haven't been criticizing you for a while? This is a pretty sad lie to try to peddle.

Oh man I am just sick of these misunderstandings because they could be solved if you would just read it.

Seriously.

Read the post.

That you quoted.

I said I wasn't suspicious of you. I literally straight up said "My suspicion is relieved". With the reasoning being "because he's had a strong scumread this whole time".

And then you quoted that post with those words, and accused me of ignoring your strong scumread, saying it was an OMGUS case against you and that I was peddling a sad lie.

I want to be able to say "it was a simple mistake", but you literally just quoted words, and used the exact opposite of their meaning. It's like me saying "i thought this food was spicy but it isnt" and you saying "stop trying to convince people that the food is spicy".

At this point I'm more frustrated that the people accusing me aren't actually reading what I am saying, to the point where they say things like this.

Read list is coming soon, I don't wanna finish it while being frustrated.

[davesaz]

I was working on Spitfire when the latest post came in. Here's what I had before that post.

Spoiler: stuff

Reacted to the scum bus/claim stuff by saying they're scum
Reaction to Bulbazak: pasch is town, doesn't think TSO is. Mala split. Not sure about acyron.
Asks how he's different to get scum read.
Town gains nothing from messing around
Dialogue with Aquanim re: tso & acryon
Doesn't agree with Netherspite's sheeping. If you think i'm scummy, why
Bulbazak town, asking insightful questions which are productive
Response to TSO's warning to not town read Bulbazak too easily
Response to Bulbazak "you two defended each other (acryon)" Show where this defending was
Points out that Shinobi says "no reason not to suspect Waffles" double negative, vs positive statement
Thinks Pasch is scum, like gut
Next post, explains Pasch's 226 talked about shinobi, votes on me, mala; votes Spitfire w/o explanation
Respond to Bulbazak's observation that his options are open, with "would you prefer them closed?"
Why would not be useful as town?
Sees Bulbazak trying to mold him into a scum mold and not caring what doesn't fit
Asks for Aquanim and Mala reads

My analysis:

• Lots of interaction with Bulbazak, seems to be more than half of total posting (rough guess)
  
• Reacted to the scum bus joking period by saying the participants are scummy, town gains nothing from messing around
  
• More defense than offense, overall (rough estimate).
  
  • Responds to people sheeping onto him (Nether as example), wants to know why
    
  • Responds to people accusing him of defending Acryon, show examples
    
  • Pasch scum, in 226 talked about shinobi, votes on dave, mala; but voted spitfire without explanation

My read: Could be scum, though the latest post softens it a bit. The promised reads list may help.

[Paschendale]

Oh man I am just sick of these misunderstandings because they could be solved if you would just read it.

Seriously.

Read the post.

That you quoted.

I said I wasn't suspicious of you. I literally straight up said "My suspicion is relieved". With the reasoning being "because he's had a strong scumread this whole time".

And then you quoted that post with those words, and accused me of ignoring your strong scumread, saying it was an OMGUS case against you and that I was peddling a sad lie.

I want to be able to say "it was a simple mistake", but you literally just quoted words, and used the exact opposite of their meaning. It's like me saying "i thought this food was spicy but it isnt" and you saying "stop trying to convince people that the food is spicy".

At this point I'm more frustrated that the people accusing me aren't actually reading what I am saying, to the point where they say things like this.

Read list is coming soon, I don't wanna finish it while being frustrated.

Sounds like you, just as Shinobi is, aren't being as clear as you think you are. Stop whining about it and do better.

[SpitFire216]

But further investigation shows that he actually has had a considerably strong scumread on me this whole time. So it's not as out of the blue as it appears to be. So my suspicion is relieved.

You're just going to ignore the past posts where I have been talking about your actions and pretend that I haven't been criticizing you for a while? This is a pretty sad lie to try to peddle.

Alright Pasch, where is the confusing part of my quote?

[Paschendale]

But further investigation shows that he actually has had a considerably strong scumread on me this whole time. So it's not as out of the blue as it appears to be. So my suspicion is relieved.

You're just going to ignore the past posts where I have been talking about your actions and pretend that I haven't been criticizing you for a while? This is a pretty sad lie to try to peddle.

Alright Pasch, where is the confusing part of my quote?

It's not confusing. It's simply intentionally misleading. You spend most of that post creating a false narrative, only to then double back at the end. Why bother even making that comment unless you're trying to give people a false impression?

[Aquanim]

@Spitfire, Paschendale:

I don't think debating #263 is getting us much of anywhere. Can we talk about something else?

Specifically I'd like to talk about this:

...
Sounds like you, just as Shinobi is, aren't being as clear as you think you are. Stop whining about it and do better.

I'd like an opinion on this from both of you. Do you think Shinobi is

trying

to be clear? From my perspective he isn't; he's dodging questions and responding belligerently (to myself and Paschendale).

[SpitFire216]

You just went from lack of clarity to intentionally misleading.

And the false narrative is totally not true, the post directly before the post with my so called "false narrative" says that I thought you were scum and was going to go back and reread to find out. That post was merely the follow up post and it was directly AFTER the post about me thinking you were scum.

Post in thread

I feel like Pasch is scum. I'm gonna go back and see if there is any evidence to support that feeling, or if my scumdar sense is just way off.

Post directly after the above post

Aw, I see it, my uneasiness was how this post

Damn that's some fishy shit on page 9, Shinobi...

I don't understand the votes on Davesaz. Someone wanna talk about that and make a solid case there?

Malakittens seems a bit more passive than usual. Not sure what this means.

VOTE: Spitfire

Barring something really significant from him, I don't think Spitfire is going to make me decide that he's just lynchbait. He doesn't quite seem that way.

He didn't really say much about my actions, like he was just jumping onto the easiest lynch.

But further investigation shows that he actually has had a considerably strong scumread on me this whole time. So it's not as out of the blue as it appears to be. So my suspicion is relieved.

So now that we know it isn't confusing although you said it was, and it isn't misleading although you said it was, what else are you going to accuse the post of to make it seem like I'm scum?

[Netherspite]

@SpitFire216

- I assume that you totally agree with my #273 because you didn't care to answer.
- If you're town, can you please do something else besides defending yourself? Say, try to find the scum?
- Paschendale's point is that you claim you didn't notice he was scumreading you for a while before this page. I agree with him on that, it's hard to not notice someone is scumreading you.

[Aquanim]

If you're still here, Netherspite, is there anything you'd like to talk about with me?

[Netherspite]

Well, I'd be interested in your reads on all the players. Better if explained. Except the ones you already posted.