Open 580: Tit For Tat - Game Over!

[davesaz]

Anyone else notice how Xayzeck is defending Shinobi by questioning his attacker, while Mala is just flat out defending him?
I'd think this is the scum team, if it weren't so unlikely that they'd be so obvious about defending each other.

[Xayzeck]

You can't just sweep your predecessor's actions under the rug and pretend they didn't happen. Newb scum could be replaced by experienced scum who knows how to talk his way out of a tough spot. That doesn't make the earlier actions any less scummy.

I'm not ignoring my predecessor's actions, I'm saying they're not from a scum-perspective. I believe my predecessor was newbtown, and I'll defend him that way.

Yes, newbscum can be replaced by experience scum to save the slot. What's your point? Do you think it's happening now with me replacing Spitfire?

No, just because someone more experienced replaces in, doesn't mean the predecessor is less scummy. But what are you suggesting? That I openly accept that my predecessor is scummy, claim scum, and vote myself?

[Xayzeck]

Anyone else notice how Xayzeck is defending Shinobi by questioning his attacker, while Mala is just flat out defending him?
I'd think this is the scum team, if it weren't so unlikely that they'd be so obvious about defending each other.

Confbias.

[Netherspite]

Well, you're criticizing my case using mostly "he's just newbie" argument and I strongly dislike the idea to give a free pass to any newbie just because he's a newbie.
People sometimes are faking being a newbie to excuse their scummy looking mistakes.

That's not true, I used that argument twice, not for the whole case.

The only reason I bring this up as newb is because it struck me as a newb not being able to articulate why he scumreads someone, and when it gets shot down he tries to bring up something else.

Do you have anything to suggest he's not a newb?

Oh well, there also were some "Why is this scum?" answers.
If you don't see these actions as scummy I can't help there. For me it looked scummy.
May be every single point alone was not VERY scummy, but I don't believe someone could do ALL of this as town.
Just does not fit in my head.

Of course you won't admit that your predecessor was scum. That would be stupid. So I expect you to not consider things he did scummy.

Regarding the newbie part: Since it is easy to fake being a newbie I just don't consider such arguments ("he's newbie, not scum") worthy.
If he is experienced there won't be slips helping to determine whether is he newbie or not.
If he is not, well, he is newbie

Also, in my first game on this forum we had VERY newbie-looking player, I even got convinced at D2 that he's just a newbtown. However, I was wrong. At D3 I realized it and we nailed him. He was scum.

[davesaz]

Nice buzzword. I asked Mala about why she was so sure about Shinobi well before deciding that Shinobi was scum.

But let's explore this. Why do you feel like Shinobi needs defending?

[Xayzeck]

Oh well, there also were some "Why is this scum?" answers.
If you don't see these actions as scummy I can't help there. For me it looked scummy.
May be every single point alone was not VERY scummy, but I don't believe someone could do ALL of this as town.
Just does not fit in my head.

Some of them, I don't really get how it points to him being scum.

I think the main bulk of your case is that his reads are inconsistent, and that they change a lot, really quickly, with no new input, yes? None of these reads are very critical, that allow him to support major wagons, so there's no explicit scum motivation.

The only way to push it is that his reads keep changing because they're fabricated, and so he can't remember what he said last time so he pulls something out of his ass, but that seems like a pretty weak reason to push to me. Maybe because I know he's town.

[Xayzeck]

Nice buzzword. I asked Mala about why she was so sure about Shinobi well before deciding that Shinobi was scum.

But let's explore this. Why do you feel like Shinobi needs defending?

Because Shinobi is town.

I don't get how you asking Mala about Shinobi has anything to do with this.

[Xayzeck]

2. You call TSO scum without a reason, then specifying "starting the joke" as reason, then changing your reasoning to "only claimed scum and yelled at Waffle" and "not being productive".
4. You claim that joking on p1 "only muddies the water". But there's really no "water" on p1. You seem to be attempting to justify your suspicion towards TSO by using this weak argument.

I kinda just accepted that you were right, but I figured to go back and check these out for myself.

He didn't call TSO scum without a reason, he called TSO scum because he claimed scum. 25 49

After that, he adds not doing anything to the list of why he scumreads TSO.

I myself don't really get the "muddies the water" argument though, because I don't really know what it means lol

[Netherspite]

Faking reads served the purpose to appear doing something useful while not really doing it.
I don't see any town motivation behind posting random reads and changing them within few posts. I can't recall any townie forgetting the reads they had 3 posts ago.

Speaking of his reasons for suspecting TSO.
I was talking about this:
1. In #103 he says that TSO is scum because he participated in the joke.
2. In #104 he's being asked by Aquanim "what makes TSO different from the rest?"
3. In #105 he says that the difference is

TSO was the starter of the joke

.
4. In #106 Aquanim asks him what's his "reason for thinking that that makes him scum".
5. In #107 he states that his reason is basically

TSO did nothing except participating in the joke

.

Do you see the difference between his reasoning in his consequent posts #105 and #107 ?
He's not only changing his reads rapidly, he's also changing the reasons of his reads. The only sane explanation for that is him forging his reads and reasons for them and forgetting them fast.

[davesaz]

Nice buzzword. I asked Mala about why she was so sure about Shinobi well before deciding that Shinobi was scum.

But let's explore this. Why do you feel like Shinobi needs defending?

Because Shinobi is town.

I don't get how you asking Mala about Shinobi has anything to do with this.

You used confbias, in response to my post about you and Mala defending Shinobi.
I pointed out that thinking you three might be scum together can't be confbias because I questioned Mala's townread before I had a scum read on Shinobi.

Saying Shinobi is town doesn't mean he is. He's not scum hunting, and in fact he's actively avoiding doing any hunting. Something like 75% of his posts are dodgy one-liners. Playing like this is different than what I've seen from him as town in the past. What evidence do you have that he's town?

It might be arguable that I should be scum reading Mala for her town read of Shinobi before he had posted anything meaningful. But there's no reason they can't both be scum, and I'm working on Shinobi right now.

[Xayzeck]

You used confbias, in response to my post about you and Mala defending Shinobi.
I pointed out that thinking you three might be scum together can't be confbias because I questioned Mala's townread before I had a scum read on Shinobi.

Saying Shinobi is town doesn't mean he is. He's not scum hunting, and in fact he's actively avoiding doing any hunting. Something like 75% of his posts are dodgy one-liners. Playing like this is different than what I've seen from him as town in the past. What evidence do you have that he's town?

It might be arguable that I should be scum reading Mala for her town read of Shinobi before he had posted anything meaningful. But there's no reason they can't both be scum, and I'm working on Shinobi right now.

Confbias is that you're suggesting Shinobi/Xay through that interaction only because you scumread Shinobi and I, when in fact I would be pushing you regardless of whether it was a Shinobi vote or not, because the whole point I'm pushing you is that the vote came out of nowhere.

Only his recent posting has dodgy one-liners, the rest are questions and pushes. If you just scroll through his ISO, he's not as useless and sideline as everyone makes him out to be.

I was considering them being scum together, since Mala's defence didn't feel very justified, but I don't think that's the case.

[Xayzeck]

@Nether: I'll get back to you tomorrow. Honestly it's quite tiring having to defend my predecessor, since I myself have no idea what the fuck he's tryna do

[davesaz]

Only his recent posting has dodgy one-liners, the rest are questions and pushes. If you just scroll through his ISO, he's not as useless and sideline as everyone makes him out to be.

Show me an example of something you consider useful.

[davesaz]

@Nether: I'll get back to you tomorrow. Honestly it's quite tiring having to defend my predecessor, since I myself have no idea what the fuck he's tryna do

Seems to me I've seen something about a "my predecessor sucked" scum tell, somewhere. Can't remember where.

I've also seen people who continue to tunnel a slot regardless of the replacement's actions, and flip scum.

[Xayzeck]

I should be sleeping

Amished tell is what it's called

Also how is that relevant. The "smth like this has happened" is so fucking dumb

I've seen people replace in that cannot defend their predecessor but flip town

What's the relevance in that

[Xayzeck]

Only his recent posting has dodgy one-liners, the rest are questions and pushes. If you just scroll through his ISO, he's not as useless and sideline as everyone makes him out to be.

Show me an example of something you consider useful.

200

[Netherspite]

I've seen people replace in that cannot defend their predecessor but flip town

Exactly. Defending your predecessor is null tell.
Not alignment-indicative.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Mod

- Any chance of a slight deadline extension? I want to really go to town on this game over the weekend.

There will be no deadline extension.

Replacements were found within a suitable time to avoid needing an extension on deadline.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

V O T E C O U N T

1 . 1 4

[/b]

(3)

Xayzeck -

Netherspite, T S O, Paschendale

(L-4)

(3)

davesaz -

Malakittens, acryon, Luca Blight

(L-4)

(2)

Luca Blight -

Bulbazak, Tempest

(L-5)

(2)

Shinobi -

davesaz, Aquanim

(L-5)

(1)

Paschendale -

Shinobi

(L-6)

(1)

Not Voting —

Xayzeck

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch

Mod Notes;

• acryon is V/LA until 15/12

[/font]

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-12-15 23:00:00)

[Paschendale]

No, I'm well aware of who you're scumreading, and how much effort you're putting into actually seeing one of them lynched.

At the present time, do you think any of the Spitfire slot, Shinobi or Acryon are likely lynches?

I don't like to make predictions. Any lynch can happen if you push for it hard enough. You're complaining that I'm not going all in on any of these lynches. Have you considered that, just maybe, I don't do that unless I'm more certain than I presently am?

I dislike how Pasch and Nether haven't initiated an interaction with me.

TSO too but he hasn't talked to anyone so

@Pasch/Nether: Why is my slot scum?

I've been less active in general over the last few days. That's why Aqua suddenly thinks I'm scum, and also why I haven't had anything to say to you. Of course, why then did it take you so long to interact with me? Spitfire wasn't pushing any genuine reads. He was playing as if he had no real suspicions, mostly just defended himself, and what little attempt he made to scumhunt that wasn't just OMGUS was more tactical than it was deductive. All indicative of day 1 scumplay without a plan.

Some are a little easier to explain than others. I skimmed quite a few walls in this game, mostly Tempest's, simply because:

So, no actual scumreads? That's suspicious, too.

Also, why'd he even bring up the dave wagon, it's not at all related to what Aqua was talking about.

And yet still never gotten an answer about it.

Anyone else notice how Xayzeck is defending Shinobi by questioning his attacker, while Mala is just flat out defending him?
I'd think this is the scum team, if it weren't so unlikely that they'd be so obvious about defending each other.

Quite reasonable that only one of them is his ally and the other is simply wrong. But which is which...

--------------------------

Nether, you so town it hurts.

Anyone else find it fishy that Acryon is v/la until exactly after the deadline is over? He's basically parked on this unfounded Dave wagon that no one will defend. He's a wasted vote that won't go to helping us lynch scum today.

[acryon]

I still don't get why you are saying this - I have no idea why you feel trolling is more likely to come from town than scum. It makes no sense at all, and you never explained it.

I'm not actually sure what you're referring to. When did I say this? But for what it's worth I do actually think it is

slightly

more likely to come from town, because while newb-town and experienced town may feel comfortable trolling, I think only experienced scum would feel comfortable trolling. I'm not sure newb-scum would. But this doesn't actually relate to my reads at all. It's been a few days so I'm a bit removed from the game currently, but I'm not sure what you're referring to. Quote please.

I appreciate it's been turned into this big... thing, but it bothers me that the first thing acryon wants to talk about on his return is that initial three-way read rather than anything relevant to today's lynch.

I don't think I find it scummy so much as just frusturating.

As I already explained in the post, I had/have a very limited amount of time. It is much easier to use a small amount of time clarifying a point of contention concerning my personal reads than it is to investigate and comment on what's transpired in my absence.

I was hoping to have a little more time today, but I don't. I truly do apologize to the town for not being around during this time, but in a few days, I'll be back to contributing like I normally do.

In the mean-time, I am still happy with my vote. I still feel good about what my gut was telling me regarding his weird behavior early on, and I don't think his actions since have proved to come from town over scum.

[acryon]

Anyone else find it fishy that Acryon is v/la until exactly after the deadline is over? He's basically parked on this unfounded Dave wagon that no one will defend. He's a wasted vote that won't go to helping us lynch scum today.

Sure thing bud. Could be that, or it could be that my wife and I just had a baby, and I'll be at home helping her full-time until that date when I have to go back to work where I can actually access the site during downtime. I guess I'll let you decide what you think is more likely.

[Shinobi]

Break at work, thought I'd devote a little time to the game to make up for whatever it was that people hated about me.

Anyone else notice how Xayzeck is defending Shinobi by questioning his attacker, while Mala is just flat out defending him?
I'd think this is the scum team, if it weren't so unlikely that they'd be so obvious about defending each other.

I'm sorry, but how does this make any of us scum? Xay thinks that I'm town and wants to know the motivation behind your attack on me. Is this only a defense that can come from scum defending scum or what?

I also checked your points on Mala's townread on me, and I don't understand where that's coming from either. Mala didn't call me town until I made my giant reads post in yet you said she townread me before I did anything worth being townread. In fact, her whole modus operandi from the start of the game was pushing me into doing something so she could read me, in yet you're saying that you couldn't reach a conclusion based on what I posted. I understand that your meta might be a little out of whack, maybe because this is only our second game together, but why is it that Mala's defense/read is only scum/scum?

[Shinobi]

Anyone else find it fishy that Acryon is v/la until exactly after the deadline is over? He's basically parked on this unfounded Dave wagon that no one will defend. He's a wasted vote that won't go to helping us lynch scum today.

Nope.

[Shinobi]

Dave's associative read genuinely makes no sense to me because I thought my first wall was okay, but a bunch of people have ignored it as well.

They can't all be mafia. Something is wrong here.