Newbie 1561: Puppies! (Game Over)

[toolenduso]

Vote Count 1.8

Epic Warrior (2): copper223, JasonWazza
Hostile Intent (0):
paulw556 (0):
++-- (1): Hostile Intent
copper223 (0):
singersigner (0):
mallowgeno (1): singersigner
JasonWazza (1): Cabd
Cabd (0):

Not voting (4): Epic Warrior, mallowgeno, ++--, paulw556

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: December 24, 7:40 a.m. Pacific Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2014-12-24 07:40:00)

[mallowgeno]

I agree plusle, so it looks to me like plusle is thinker and Paul is a spontaneous player, reads on them should be developped according to these baselines.

It would appear you are a thinker also, maybe even an over thinker (not that that is a bad thing maybe I should replace the word over with meticulous?) I wouldn't say I'm spontaneous more I just say it as I see it but I suppose that would be for other people to decide!!!

Are you then a thinker for thinking that he is a thinker?

I don't really think this will lead us anywhere.

I really don't think you need to worry so much about that in the RVS...

I can't remember if I posted the below before or not but still...

*have voted

I know that it's probably too early to do so, but I think now I'll say that, currently, I have a slight townread on copper for his generally helpful comments and questions, and, at the same time, not trying to lead.

Could he not be intentionally trying not to lead? Whereas a townie would act more naturally? Think it's still too early for town/scum reads. But then again, this is my first game

I also think it's quite early for reads

, but I also think that a weak, initial read might help scumhunting. (However, this is also the first game (at least on this website) for me, so feel free to correct me if I'm totally wrong.)

Followed shortly by

UNVOTE: Cabd VOTE: choof

And I also have my first scumread, namely, choof, for being generally unhelpful in the discussions with their randomish messages, which are not anywhere near a certain scumtell, but definitely worth taking into account. As he had no votes on as of this point, I changed my vote to him.

And then we have this...

Don't hold back observations. That being said, the whole "baiting" thing by withholding information really pisses me off because it's like "oh I was purposefully acting scummy or being coy DUH" which is just a lame excuse for "oh shit you caught me."

Why would withholding information in order to get better reads be acting scummy?

Gonna be voting plusle soon.

So you don't vote me but you... announce that you'll vote me soon. That probably is the most pointless thing that could ever happen.

And I don't like posting votes without reasoning. Now that I have sufficiently done so

Vote Plusle

[mallowgeno]

@Mod finals are done now

[++--]

And I don't like posting votes without reasoning

...says, then proceeds to vote calling a bunch of randomly selected quotes a "reason".

[Cabd]

If by "pretty ba show" you mean that I was flying halfway accross the USA to be home for the holidays and that I'm here now, then yes. Otherwise, no.

[singersigner]

@Mod finals are done now

That's great maybe you can play this game now? I'm not moving my vote until you do.

Well that and O think you're town. But mostly I have nothing but your inactivity to go on and that's not cool man.

[mallowgeno]

And I don't like posting votes without reasoning

...says, then proceeds to vote calling a bunch of randomly selected quotes a "reason".

Hey there Mister Grumpy Gills

@Mod finals are done now

That's great maybe you can play this game now? I'm not moving my vote until you do.

Well that and O think you're town. But mostly I have nothing but your inactivity to go on and that's not cool man.

That's fair

[mallowgeno]

@Plusle

You must have missed my reasoning between quote posts. It's alright dude, happens to the best of us

[++--]

@Plusle

You must have missed my reasoning between quote posts. It's alright dude, happens to the best of us

"followed shortly by" isn't a reasoning, especially, since you obviously missed the following parts:

"but I also think that a weak, initial read might help scumhunting" in 36

"are not anywhere near a certain scumtell" and "As he had no votes on as of this point, I changed my vote to him." in 54

Everything else you've written is not anywhere near something that could possibly be considered a reasoned thing in your post, and, thus, is not worth answering to.

[mallowgeno]

If you say so

[Cabd]

Also I am going to flat out state I disagree heavily with singer's opinion that posting reads ITT is a bad thing. I've played many a scum game and I can think of maybe two kills out of a hundred or so that actually were targeted because of what a town player said their reads were. I have a well above average scum win rate.

[singersigner]

I didn't say posting reads was a bad thing. That's pretty wildly taking what I said out of context, so next time you try to paraphrase something (incorrectly), try quoting so it won't confuse people. I said reads LISTS are terrible. I've always thought so, and probably always will. The difference between read lists, and reads in general, is that it benefits scum more than town.

I'm also calling bullshit that your nightkills weren't influenced by town's reads, list or otherwise. You either kills someone based off of what other people feel about them, or how they feel about you, or how you think other people might feel about you if they die, or wifom based on the above. Every choice scum makes boils down to reads or PRs and I doubt you're that accurate with PR hunting.

[copper223]

@Singer
If a player hates your guts and is on the right track you don't need a readlist as scum to figure out if it's time to silence him, the cases I can see where scum would benefit from readlists are in pushing mislynches and if they want to kill universally town read players, but you are ignoring the benefits as well. If scum has to start from early D1 regularly giving reads on every player they are going to trip up, they have to because some of those reads will have to be made knowingly on townies and will have to be changed later when they don't fit the scum agenda anymore, and that's where you catch them.

Regardless you saying read(lists) are bad in a newbie game has already caused Paul to decide it's better not to give his reads, a very unwelcome development for me.

[Cabd]

In fact... Reads list incoming.

[singersigner]

@copper...you're more than welcome to ask how he feels on specific players in you think it's my fault he won't volunteer information on ALL OF THEM AT ONCE ZOMGZ. And that's the fucking point of being scum. You have to make up reads. Giving a list they have to change later is not some miraculous thing townies have invented to trip them up. It's part of the fucking game. Scum are more likely to be stubborn and stick to their reads because they have insight to everyone's play already. Town are the ones who change because they're in the dark. I don't even know why that's something I have to explain. Making scum commit to reads D1 (when no one can btw) is like saying "here, hope your mislynches work out!"

[copper223]

@Singer
Yes and if their mislynch dies or gets lynched they have to pick a new one, not only that, having more info than the rest of us is going to show long term if you force them to make statements where having these information is relevant, they are biased in that they know our alignment and have to selectively chose what to include and what to hide in their reads, especially in a newbie game, if scum are new players not used to do this I see no better way to catch them, and if we don't find any readlist suspicious that is also a hint that mafia may be hiding ib the more experienced players.

[singersigner]

I mean, I don't know about you, but I find myself wrong at least 50% of the time, so I'm constantly having to change or evolve my reads. Maybe I just have higher expectations for people who play scum, but there are certain things that seem like a standard of a player, regardless of alignment. If you can't do that as scum, then what CAN you do?

I see your point about reads evolving based on the knowledge that someone's town, but that's going to be true whether they're asked to give a full list all at once or not. Have you ever heard of confirmation bias? That's the town form of what scum do all the time, so we just have to deal with it, I guess?

But yeah, I hope you've concluded that you'll never get a full reads list from me. Whether or not you find it scummy that other people won't/don't is up to you.

[copper223]

@Singer
Pretty much, I am certainly not going to call you scum for it and I already meta checked you for consistency and it matches, although I am going to disagree with you. My peeve her is I think it is sending the wrong message to newer players, that giving reads in general is bad, which I hope you will join me in saying is not the case at all.

[Cabd]

The game has gone on long enough that impressions have been made and there's no reason to withhold reads, so....

Town:

5.

copper223

-Mindset, actions, very town-oriented views of the game. If scum he's playing out of his mind. (I liked the prior avatar better though, Persona 4 is awesome)

4.

++--:

In addition to his very subtle points on copper-town, he's got a very "extinguish flames" style ISO.
it firms up as a town read for me because of the way he use the data accumulated. I'm usually quite weary of "just kidding guys not scummy just a reaction test" but if this was a scum-made test then my hat is off to this player.

8.

JasonWazza

: Jason's pride about his scumgame rings true here, so I'm taking this as tryharding jason. THat said, post 134 is actually pretty damn good and he's in my townpile for now. "Why aren't you guys fucking noticing me" isn't something I see scum-jason using as his re-entry ticket into the thread.

Not so Town (null):

6.

singersigner

: At first I liked singer for town. Later posts and hostility made me re-evaluate but I actually like that she's sticking to her guns here regarding reads lists and answering aggression with aggression. This might be higher but I'm leaving her here for now.

2.

Hostile Intent (formerly choof)

: Post 41 actually worries the fuck out of me given who replaced in. HI, did you replace in with a read on this slot of having read any of the game beforehand? I'm actually partially gutting some weird fowl play here but I suppose it is what it is. That said, incredibly unlikely to be scum with paul, so.

Below line of Lynch-ability (Scumreads):

3.

paulw556

: Post 24 pings my scumdar because of the weasel-words where we see "Honestly" inserted into a sentence it has no need to be in. Additionally, paul seems to be talking out reasoning and justification when in general, town just does things and feels zero need to preemptively justify them. Note "I suppose that is what the RVS is for" has no actual content and the post looks the same without it. 28 directly contradicts the point made in 24. Post 56 screams of "fell for bait" Unvoting the RVS vote and not re-voting, in addition to sheeping singer's logic, gives him good reason to not post ANY of his reads or opinions. Can anyone think of a single actual stance paul has taken since post 150?

1.

Epic Warrior:

I covered a bit of it in earlier posts, but the awkwardness here is very scum-ringing. More about this read later.

7.

Mallowgeno

: I dislike the "extending by choice" of RVS in post 108 as a reason to excuse fluff posting. I also dislike that "interesting" in post 108 followed by an unvote was never followed upon. The telegraphing of the ++-- vote when there was no vote in play from him makes me :~( And then the reasoning is poor as well. I started this as a null read but I couldn't justify leaving it there.




If I were to be calling a scumteam right now it'd be paul and EW, with Mallow being the incorrect scumread of my three.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: paulw556

[Epic Warrior]

Hey guys sorry I haven't said anything in a while. Im not going to make excuses because everyone has the same excuses, but I will be able to be on a lot more after Friday. Ok, posts to follow!

[copper223]

@Cabd
That's a readlist I am willing to call you town for.

[Epic Warrior]

What you've said so far makes sense to me, I wouldn't mind a readlist, or reads on the players you have them on, though.

This struck me as weird. What had Jason said so far that made sense? Taking his ISO, the only posts to that point that mentioned other players specifically was his vote on me and a comment asking about choof. With the read list discussion that followed, it struck me as very odd that you would ask for a read list from him and that he would give it to you so readily. This could be a scumtell. So far, I've been looking for scum pairs rather than individual scum, so this was the first big potential scum pair indicator that has been posted so far. Copper, I'll reply to your post in my next one.

[copper223]

@EW
For starters he said he thinks you are scum, which obviuously makes sense to me, secondly being annoyed that nobody was scumhunting him was also something I see as making sense for a townie expecting scum pressure for being absent at the start and wondering what is going on.

Why does it strike you as odd that ai asked him for a readlist, given I've been arguing with Singer about the merits of giving them up to now?

[Cabd]

@Cabd
That's a readlist I am willing to call you town for.

Why?

[copper223]

@Cabd
You hit all the relevant points in the game from which I also got my reads on other players, particularly JW and MG, and the Paul read proves you are not sheeping me because based on contribution I may look obv. town to scum but actually looked for these information on your own.