Open 580: Tit For Tat - Game Over!

[Shinobi]

It is.

I get what you're trying to say but the idea you're bringing across, when taken at face-value, is really dumb.

[Shinobi]

@TSO: How common is it on this site for one of the scum to be really active and act pro-town? There was a scumtell I used on a previous site which I call "scum leading town" where scum would try to drive the conversation by pushing others, sometimes even to vote people the scum themselves were not voting. I used this tell to correctly scum read our host BBT in a newbie game, but failed to push it through.

There is someone here to whom this scumtell might apply, but using it in this game would be a mountain of work because I haven't been keeping track of it in the flow. Do you think it's worth the effort to check, or is that a really uncommon thing here?

This is basically exactly what scum is supposed to be doing.

Who's the accused? Enlighten me.

[Netherspite]

It is.

I get what you're trying to say but the idea you're bringing across, when taken at face-value, is really dumb.

Give me a single reason to care

only

about surviving yourself as town not in LyLo situation?
You don't win by surviving. You can lose while being completely alive.
If you're town of course.

[Shinobi]

When you're one of the prime lynch targets and you're trying to survive a lynch.
When scum fakes a redcheck on you.
When you have a valuable role and you want to ensure that you don't have to claim.

That's just off the top of my head. When you're town, any other person in the game getting lynched has a higher chance of producing mafia than you do. There are plenty of times where survival as town is your highest priority. Why would you ever let confirmed town get lynched?

[Shinobi]

I don't really find it all that strange that most of TSO's posts are centered on defending himself.

This is kind of why I want the Aqua/TSO fight to stop: it isn't accomplishing anything and it's not moving the game forward. Nobody is going to lynch either player based on the cases they're presenting against one another and, if either of them is scum, the fight will make them harder to look at objectively.

[Netherspite]

When you're about to get lynched the things that should concern you way more are:
- who is pushing you and why?
- who is defending you and why?
- who is the scum and what information that you have can help town find it after your town flip?

Strategically it is more useful to focus on advancing town as far as you can in catching scum after your death rather than spending all your remaining time in attempts to survive.
Any sane town will provide as much information as he can if he's about to be lynched. Focusing only on self-defense does not help town to solve the game after your death.

Of course if you're a PR you can want to survive, that's logical.
But if you're VT I don't see why should you furiosly defend yourself instead of helping town to catch scum.

[Shinobi]

Duh to the top three points.

But there's nothing wrong with being defensive, and the fact that you're trying to pass it off as a scumtell is really weird because it doesn't really mean anything, especially in this circumstance. (Information lynches are also stupid and people who suggest them are usually scum for that reason.)

[Shinobi]

Theoretically it's suboptimal to get defensive, sure, but it doesn't matter because there's no chance of it being a characteristic displayed only by scum.

[Netherspite]

Isn't it a common meta at this forum to policy lynch for the information sake?

Anyway, I still don't see anyone who is spending his last hours of life to self-defend instead of helping the town with catching the scum. Seems we won't agree on this matter.

What do you think about #1221 ?

[Shinobi]

I don't really think it is, but I'm still relatively new to MS compared to how often I play on my home site.

I don't have much of an opinion on that post one way or another atm. Kind of why I want focus to shift off of him for the time being so I can see what he does when people aren't pouncing down his throat.

[T S O]

There's fun observation:
All the votes TSO made were OMGUS votes.

Push this and see where you go with it, please.

[T S O]

Half the town is lurking and sinking into apathy - come on, you lot.

[T S O]

Isn't it a common meta at this forum to policy lynch for the information sake?

Anyway, I still don't see anyone who is spending his last hours of life to self-defend instead of helping the town with catching the scum. Seems we won't agree on this matter.

What do you think about #1221 ?

Hey, you just mentioned meta! Good idea.

Go and find me some games where I, as town, rolled over and took my lynch like a good townie. Go on. You're pushing it as a scumtell, so let's see you back it up further.

[Netherspite]

It's either a scumtell or a sign of townie who is playing against his win condition (because it is suboptimal play as Shinobi agreed).
That's my opinion.

As of the OMGUS votes thing, I'm not sure what to make out of it yet.
I brought it up so everyone can tell their opinion on this matter.

[Shinobi]

It's either a scumtell or a sign of townie who is playing against his win condition (because it is suboptimal play as Shinobi agreed).

That's my opinion.

As of the OMGUS votes thing, I'm not sure what to make out of it yet.
I brought it up so everyone can tell their opinion on this matter.

It's neither of those things, though.

[T S O]

Have you ever considered the problem is you, Netherspite, and your method of thinking? Because you probably should.

[T S O]

Shinobi, who are you scumreading?

[Shinobi]

Tbd.

I want to say Nether but that could just be confirmation bias on my part. I still have to elaborate on my case on him because I've been lazy.

[Netherspite]

My method of thinking earned me many scum caught in my previous games.
This game I played D1 terrible but it does not mean my method of thinking is wrong.
Personally I find your playstyle awful yet you won't change it just because I don't like it.
Same with my playstyle.

@Shinobi

VT not in LyLo situation focusing

only

on self-defense is playing against his win condition.

[T S O]

Yes, I'm clearly focusing only on self-defense by asking Shinobi who he's scumreading.

When you blatantly don't read the game, your credibility gets shot in the foot. Helpful hint from your pal TSO.

[T S O]

Ribbing you is too much fun, though, so I'll stop for now.

Any updates on that OMGUS argument? Saying it exists and then not producing it would be an actual scumtell (unlike some of yours).

[Shinobi]

My method of thinking earned me many scum caught in my previous games.
This game I played D1 terrible but it does not mean my method of thinking is wrong.
Personally I find your playstyle awful yet you won't change it just because I don't like it.
Same with my playstyle.

@Shinobi

VT not in LyLo situation focusing

only

on self-defense is playing against his win condition.

This argument is so important to me that I'm going to go do something else now.

[Netherspite]

In fact it's pretty tempting to do something resulting in a mod-kill for a couple of reasons:
- I'm pissed by my reads in D1;
- I'm pissed by people being so stubborn and believing their PoV is the only right PoV.

On the other hand, I'm never giving up no matter how much I'm pissed.
So no, you in fact will have to lynch me to get rid of me insisting on my PoV.

@TSO

While you're not focusing only on self-defense anymore, the point stands. I was more like defending the point itself rather than calling you scum.

Regarding the OMGUS argument, the point stands too. All your votes were OMGUS votes. As I said, I don't know what to make out of it and I brought it up so others may be will have some idea on this matter.

[T S O]

No, I don't think you understand what I am saying. I am not asking you to randomly drop the point for no reason, I am saying I don't believe you and I'm asking you to present the OMGUS case here.

[Netherspite]

There's no "case".
There's an observation. I stated it in the original post. Can you read?