Newbie 1561: Puppies! (Game Over)

[copper223]

Is it possible to blackilist a player from your games?

[Hostile Intent]

There's Wisdom of the Crowds, but you're not a crowd.

Your ego might be.

[copper223]

Nope I still think the retard is town, mainly beacuse of that post where he calls me town for unvoting yesterday, to bad because I'd enjoy burying the shit oit of him. I am policy lynching him in every game I find him D1 from now.

@++--
what are your updated reads?

@Jason
Why aren't you voting EW, did you change your mind from yesterday?

[Drixx]

I'll give you complete insight into how I think Copper. I try and think of every possibility. I read people's posts assuming they are town and assuming they are scum. I try and figure out the game as fully as possible. I'll give you an example for the thought process I used concerning scum, when I saw the PR flip. I was rather surprised not to see your name there, given how strongly you have basically steered the game, and how very townie you look doing it. You probably have contributed the most to this game, and I suspect a great deal of conversation and scumhunting (or such an stellar job of acting like scumhunting that you would live up to how good you say you are) would simply vanish from this game.

I asked myself why the scum would choose not to target you, as my first thought. In order to have any reasonable guesses about that, I needed to figure out what scum could know that we couldn't. The first thing was setup. I realized that if the scum had a roleblocker, then they would know the setup was one of only two setups, and if not then they would still be able to eliminate those two, and be ahead of us in terms of knowing the pieces on the board, if you'll allow the analogy. I also realized that even in the best (scum) case, they couldn't actually rule out any role from being in the game. I asked in the thread a question concerning how the newbie game matrix thing worked to ensure I understood correctly.

My guess going into the night was that you would be killed, or if not you then someone to frame either me or EW, as the day 1 wagons that weren't taken to full lock. If I had to bet something meaningful on it, I would guess the scum team wanted to kill you, but was concerned about some role interfering. Given how boldly town you have played, you would probably be my choice to save if I were a doctor, for example. You could also have drawn the 1-shot bulletproof, or even been the doctor yourself and self saved. Any one of those things, which taken together are a fairly large collective possibility, and the scum team would have had a no kill. Now, it's also possible that the scum team just read Cabd's play as PR and all of this thinking about why you didn't die (from both of us) is completely wasted.

You've also seen my walls of text. I try to think things through very thoroughly. The vast majority of the time ... that's the only power I'll ever have in mafia: my ability to read people and think logically about things and figure out the game in order to figure out the scum. If you play more games with me, I think you'll find me quite consistent in this particular aspect, although I vary my aggressiveness and verboseness from game to game just to avoid being easily pegged when I draw an actual ability role.


@HI - When you get a chance, can you explain that vote? Despite some imprecise explanations and unexplained leaps of logic, the only serious scum tell I've gotten from Copper is the use of "Honestly" in 530. At the moment, I feel like Copper has played very townie. That said, he made sure to tell us how good he is, so I'm open to this being a clinic on how to play scum. I just haven't seen the kind of slips I would expect to see from a scum posting so prolifically as he is. A different perspective (yours) would be helpful if you're willing to give it.

[Hostile Intent]

That's the first time you've legit broken rule number seven.

You shouldn't do that, champ.

That said, "it was a reaction test" is a likely story.

Pedit: give it some posts and I'll get back to you, Drixx.

[Drixx]

Nope I still think the retard is town, mainly beacuse of that post where he calls me town for unvoting yesterday, to bad because I'd enjoy burying the shit oit of him. I am policy lynching him in every game I find him D1 from now.

Come on mate ... keep it civil. That first bit is uncalled for.

[copper223]

Fair enough, sorry for the insult.

@Drixx
If a player lurks all the time, doesn't bother to defend himself, and promptly claims vanilla chances are his win con does not involve surviving at all costs, it was the correct lynch only because there was an imposed vote from the people on his wagon (and his lynch was definitely better than NL). How would you feel if your scumbuddy behaved like Mallow in a game?

That lynch was the path of least resistance and I'm convinced at least one scum player or more likely both were on it. The fact there was such a strong resistance on EW strongly hints he is scum, the alternative is scum really wanted a lynch on Mallow and thst seems a really ballsy play coming from a declared passive player like Singer and from HI or scum got the lucky brake of the century letting town lynch town while sitting confy on the EW wagon.

Unfortunately HI is dropping associative tells with Singer like flies so idk, EW still seems by far the scummier and if he is scum most likely so are you.

[singersigner]

VOTE: copper223

Nah.

This is not what I was thinking.

We are not on the same page here.

/mod mode
Also, just a general PSA: please refrain from using certain buzzwords as attacks. There are other/better ways to engage with someone and I'd like to avoid any reports or consequential bans for using personal attacks such as "retard."
/out of mod mode

<3

[copper223]

@Drixx
You are doing a fair job of looking town I'll admit, 553 is pretty good and your analysis of the NK is deeper than mine, I don't know if that's because you had to think of this as scum or if it's playstile related (it does fit), who do you think is scum now and why?

[copper223]

@Singer
my bad.

[Hostile Intent]

Sometimes even a blind squirrel can find the nut.

Goodnight for now.

[copper223]

@HI
After re-reading it's true that that was pretty uncalled for since this is still a game and I have likely not been making it fun for you, sorry and goodnight.

[Drixx]

@Drixx
You are doing a fair job of looking town I'll admit, 553 is pretty good and your analysis of the NK is deeper than mine, I don't know if that's because you had to think of this as scum or if it's playstile related (it does fit), who do you think is scum now and why?

EW is my top scum read atm. For the reasons I first questioned him "yesterday", and also because his contribution today reads like he's afraid to own up to being experienced with the game. He went out of his way to ensure that the idea he was experienced was tied to you. More than 2 real time days in, and his contribution is almost nil. I argued to let him live on the premise he would continue to be active and we could firm up our reads. Well ... so far all he's done is reinforce the things that made me think he was scummy. The more time that passes, the less I can rationally make a town case for his play.

Beyond that I need to do a thread re-read. A lot has happened since I read the thread, and generally putting everything in fresh context with updated priors is a good idea.

[copper223]

@Drixx
See here is where I stop buying what you are selling.

You are telling me you have thought in minute detail about the night kill, down to how the setup would modify the preffered scum kill, but you are unable to give me any insight on town objective number 1, who the scumteam is, without a re-read?

To me this indicates your considerable analytical power is bent on working from a scum framework and not from a town mindset where trying to find the two scumbuddies would be your top priority.

Your only scumread being a likely bus also doesn't endear you to me.

@All
I'm sticking with EW/Drixx.

[Drixx]

Let's recap shall we Copper?

I made a case against SS yesterday. Nobody agreed with me. I don't see anything today from SS that will change that.
HI makes succinct posts which don't really give a whole lot to analyze.
Jason has been strategically lurky bordering on outright lurky.
++-- seems moderately active to me. I can't recall anything off the top of my head.
You have a few minor things which can mostly be explained away, apart from the "honestly" bit, and what I'm going to talk about after this list.
EW I also made a case against yesterday, and has only the one real thing to analyze from today.


You are comparing apples and oranges by the way. Me thinking about the night kill and trying to figure out as much as I could from it was just that: thinking. All it required was a general read on people and general recall who had FoS'd whom or who drove a wagon against whom, and some thought about the game setup and what might have motivated the kill we saw. Ultimately I think that the scum team just read Cabd as a PR; however, there are any number of other explanations that could be correct, including your supposition that he croaked simply because he was the IC.

Doing a thorough read on someone, especially in light of the kill and who might fit probable motives for it ... that's not something I can just think about in the abstract. I don't have an eidetic memory (if, in fact, such a thing exists), so I've got to re-read and look at interactions, look at what people avoided responding to vs. what they did respond to, etc...

You seem absolutely intent on making everything I say or do fit your conception of EW and me as a scum team, but you aren't being logically or rationally honest about it. You can't possibly believe that thinking about possible motives for the NK we saw is analogous to giving a proper evaluation of the game so far and scumhunting. In fact, I suggest that if I were scum you would see just the opposite from me. Rather than taking the time to go back and look at everything with updated priors and and updated perspective, don't you think a scum me (or a scum most anybody) would spend that time using my "considerable analytical power" to give a well reasoned scum read on someone?

And with each post that you make where you leave behind logic and rational thought in order to try and bend whatever I say to fit your theory, it's starting to look a lot like you're the one using your "considerable analytical power" to drive the game the way you want it to go. You tell me that my posts read as town, but then when I tell you I want to take time (we have like 10 more days available, after all) and re-read before I suggest possible partners and reasons to go with EW (whom we both seem to agree is pretty scummy), you turn around and try to make that seem like a bad thing.

Why did you unvote EW yesterday? If you were so sure he was scum, why did you see a need to ensure nobody could prematurely hammer him? The obvious answer is because we had time and rushing is not desirable. Why, then, is it scummy for me to want to take my time? The only reason I can think of is that you have tunnel vision. You are so focused in on your stated theory that EW and I are scum partners that you will twist anything into looking sinister to try and support it. Now ... that seems an awful lot like what scum generally does. They make a seemingly reasonable argument and do everything they can to push it. The more they can get a target to respond, the more chance they can find something to "support" the argument. After the target flips town, to most players it looks super reasonable and the scum player can just explain away the "unfortunate misread".

I've been reading you town for a lot of reasons, but the "honestly" language is a strong scum tell, and your "do as I say not as I do" thing where you wanted to slow things down with the EW wagon (even though you claimed to be convinced he was scum, both then and now), but you turn around and say that me wanting to be thorough is even more scummy.

I'm pretty close to agreeing with HI at this point.

[Drixx]

I have found it very hard to talk myself into you being scum Copper, because it would take exceptionally bold scum to run the game the way you have, but I can't explain away your obsession with a theory you admit has several points of possible failure. I can't explain away how you can say I look townie in one post and then make a completely invalid analogy in another post to advance said theory. I know you are smart and can reason quite well, so simple mistakes like glaringly bad analogies shouldn't come from you. As much as I wouldn't have believed that this would happen today, perhaps the reason scum didn't kill you last night is because you are on the team.

Vote: Copper223

[copper223]

@Drixx
Yup that pretty much seals it, after trying really hard to buddy buddy you are going with the only other road left open. I don't mind lynching either you are EW today, I'm not lynching anyone else.

[Drixx]

What bizzaro universe do you live in Copper? I've been questioning your posts all day. In what world does me pointing out your over the top bragging, your poor reasoning, your slips, and calling you out for a rather nasty personal attack on another player (who, from what I can see, only committed the sin of disagreeing with you). Now that I'm being critical of your obsessive tunnel vision and horrible logic, shall I be the next one you toss a slur at?

I made a case against you, and your response was to ignore the case and OMGUS me (sans the vote), whilest also implying that I somehow spent any part of today trying to curry your favor. FYI: you did really well when I questioned your logic the first time. I even got a town read from your responses, and said so. Apparently in the world you live in, calling a townie looking post a townie looking post constitutes "trying really hard to buddy buddy" someone. Seriously? That's how you come back at me after I eviscerate your terrible analogy and point out your hypocrisy?

Heck, your insistence on EW and me even makes sense with you as scum. If you get the town to kill me today and I flip town, then you have your teammate left to bus. If you get the town to go after your scum pal EW (with you safely on the wagon early), you push your theory about me and him being partners tomorrow, fresh off having been "right" about EW and get yourself into LYLO where you can point out your "success".

[Drixx]

2nd sentence of 567 should end with "... constitute "trying really hard to buddy buddy you" following the parenthetical observation.

Also, it's late (or early, whichever). I'm off to bed.

[copper223]

@Drixx
1. Your only scumread before your about face on me was EW, the player I have been wanting to lynch for most of the game.

2. You just finished telling HI how you now had a solid town read on me a few posts before the vote.

3. After what clearly is a buddying attempt that did not pay off you switched your read on me, saying my posts are now full of slips (once again in your previous posts I had made one possible slip in the use of the word honestly and the rest was pretty clear to you).

4. As I said before you decided to go ahead and vote, it looked like you were trying desperately to call me scum but decided it was better for you not to, HI voting for me must have given you the courage to go through with it. I think Singer picked up on this and that's what she was referring to with the 11.02 analogy.

Unfortuantely for you there are people here willing to slog through all the walls you write and find the obvious inconsistencies in your posts.

[Hostile Intent]

I'm going to wait for the rest of the tribe to speak before I re-enter discussion.

I'm looking at you Jason, Epic, and plusplus.

[Drixx]

@Drixx
1. Your only scumread before your about face on me was EW, the player I have been wanting to lynch for most of the game.

2. You just finished telling HI how you now had a solid town read on me a few posts before the vote.

3. After what clearly is a buddying attempt that did not pay off you switched your read on me, saying my posts are now full of slips (once again in your previous posts I had made one possible slip in the use of the word honestly and the rest was pretty clear to you).

4. As I said before you decided to go ahead and vote, it looked like you were trying desperately to call me scum but decided it was better for you not to, HI voting for me must have given you the courage to go through with it. I think Singer picked up on this and that's what she was referring to with the 11.02 analogy.

Unfortuantely for you there are people here willing to slog through all the walls you write and find the obvious inconsistencies in your posts.

And still you don't address the case I made against you. I never called your opening "theory" post townie. I said the fact that you responded to it and the way you did so was townie. In those responses you admitted there were loads of places where the theory could go off the rails. But your continued pushing of that theory, to the point of using awful analogies and hypocritical statements and basically grasping at anything I said and trying to make it look scummy didn't line up with someone who realized his theory was vulnerable, at best.

BTW, read my 2nd post in the game. I pointed out my early scum reads on 3 different people; none of whom were EW. I wasn't super suspicious of EW (See: me staying off his wagon and giving no intent to hammer) until you pointed out some inconsistency in how he was playing and the skill level he was passing himself off as. I didn't grow really sure until he basically dropped off the face of the earth today.

One of the most important tells in mafia is consistency. You said one thing when I went after you hard early in the day phase, and I gave you town credit for doing so because of reasons that are pretty easy to find in my ISO if case you missed or forgot them. But then you didn't act as if you believed what you said in those posts. You behaved as if you were operating under an entirely different reality. Thus, your actions don't line up with the posts that made you look townie.

As for your 4th point: smoke, mirrors and a lie all in one. You saw me putting your reasoning and actions under a microscope and commented that it looked like I wanted to vote you, so that if you slipped and I made a case, you could say that. It's a move lots of players make. You've been acting like you wanted to vote me all day long (see what I did there? Now I can say I predicted your vote later on if I want to emulate your playstyle). As for SS, she merely asked HI if HI had the same feeling. HI is the one who made reference to what google shows is a children's song that people frequently ask a question about (if Yahoo answers are any indication). Given your ugly to watch contempt for HI, it seems unreasonable that you actually mixed them up. You have basically fawned over SS this game and been over the top nasty to HI. No way on earth you mix them up.

You did a stellar job of playing townie. You basically ran this game. You only tripped up when you let your planned win path get in the way of keeping your play consistent with your say. This seals it. Vote stays where it is.

[Drixx]

I'm going to wait for the rest of the tribe to speak before I re-enter discussion.

I'm looking at you Jason, Epic, and plusplus.

+1 from me. I've done all I can to point out how Copper's play is scummy and motivated by a pre-determined goal instead of the goal of finding scum. That's the biggest scum tell there is. At this point it's really down to what the less active folks make of all this mess. No sense adding more for them to read.

[++--]

(Posts, reacting to the posts written after the night, and, updates scumreads coming today, starting in at most 30 mins. Probably in multiple posts to avoid getting one, huge post.)

[toolenduso]

Arf arf!