Mafia 66: Freelancer - Game over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Since no one seems to agree with me about Ryan, I'll go to my second choice.

unvote, vote: Ksc0pe

I think Jordan is right that at least one SK is hiding on his list, and Ksc0pe is the most suspicious.

[ryan]

It's also possible the SK's target eachother and thus we lose no townies at night

[ButteBlues]

Why would a no lynch be bad in this situation? I would rather no lynch than lynch randomly. If we no lynch, we lose no one. If we lynch randomly, we most likely lose a townie. Having no one die is better than having a townie die. That's why we need to make an informed lynch instead of randomly wagoning, because that's not going to help us.

A random lynch has been and always will be better than a no lynch. This is basic friggin theory. You should know better. In fact, I'm damned sure that any player who's been here more than a week knows this.

Unvote, Vote: Mastermind of Sin

No lynch'ing in this game is a death wish. I'm confident that any player worth their salt knows this. So either you've got to be a complete noob at mafia or you're scum. Plain as that.

Ah, yes. Basic game theory. However, you forget the fact that this game does not apply to basic game theory.

Every game ever is subject to the relevancy of some or most of basic game theory.

Not to mention the fact that there are numerous situations where no lynch is better than a random lynch. For example, when you get down to a point in the game where there is only 1 kill a night, and there are 10 or less people alive, at an even number, you should always no lynch to get it to an odd number of people. This is

basic friggin theory

, ya know.

Yeah - there are also other times like when it's -1 to LYLO and nobody has a clue who scum is.

The current status of the game is nothing like that. You're talking about a moot point here. It's really essentially a strawman when you boil it down.

Anyways, the normal rules do not apply to this game.

You should rethink that. Basic theory, while not universal or ubiquitous for all setups, is often quite relevant in some part or another in every setup imaginable.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

This setup would be slightly more balanced if each SK had a list of a few people that were guaranteed to be protown, just to help them make lynch and NK decisions.

Are you

serious

?

Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

But it

does

apply in this setup, so stop avoiding the claims I've put forward and start answering for your play throughout this game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why would a no lynch be bad in this situation? I would rather no lynch than lynch randomly. If we no lynch, we lose no one. If we lynch randomly, we most likely lose a townie. Having no one die is better than having a townie die. That's why we need to make an informed lynch instead of randomly wagoning, because that's not going to help us.

A random lynch has been and always will be better than a no lynch. This is basic friggin theory. You should know better. In fact, I'm damned sure that any player who's been here more than a week knows this.

Unvote, Vote: Mastermind of Sin

No lynch'ing in this game is a death wish. I'm confident that any player worth their salt knows this. So either you've got to be a complete noob at mafia or you're scum. Plain as that.

Ah, yes. Basic game theory. However, you forget the fact that this game does not apply to basic game theory.

Every game ever is subject to the relevancy of some or most of basic game theory.

Not to mention the fact that there are numerous situations where no lynch is better than a random lynch. For example, when you get down to a point in the game where there is only 1 kill a night, and there are 10 or less people alive, at an even number, you should always no lynch to get it to an odd number of people. This is

basic friggin theory

, ya know.

Yeah - there are also other times like when it's -1 to LYLO and nobody has a clue who scum is.

The current status of the game is nothing like that. You're talking about a moot point here. It's really essentially a strawman when you boil it down.

You're the one who said that a random lynch will

always

be better than a no lynch. I merely proved your base assumption wrong, which makes your entire argument unstable. You can't dismiss this fact just because the example I used does not apply to this game. I used an example that is a set in stone obvious situation where your assumption is wrong. I can hardly use the current game as an example, since this is the situation we are arguing over. I'd really like to see you argue that the example I gave applies to your assumption that a random lynch is better.

Anyways, the normal rules do not apply to this game.

You should rethink that. Basic theory, while not universal or ubiquitous for all setups, is often quite relevant in some part or another in every setup imaginable.

I didn't say that it wasn't relevant to some part of this game. You cut off my statement where I explained what made this game different from others. Taking my quote out of context isn't going to help you.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

And what's your point? Just because there could be another setup with only SK as scum doesn't change the fact that not all basic theory applies. Not to mention the fact that I have never played in a setup on Mafiascum where there has only been an SK as scum. The only other setup I have seen where there is no informed minority was Committee Mafia, in which the normal basic theory did NOT apply. I would know, since I modded the game.

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

That's not an advantage. That's taking away an advantage from the town. If you want to argue about basic, the

basic

mafia setup did not include power roles, anyways. That's what mountainous games are. A mafia versus a bunch of townies. The scum are further handicapped in this game by having no information.

This setup would be slightly more balanced if each SK had a list of a few people that were guaranteed to be protown, just to help them make lynch and NK decisions.

Are you

serious

?

This is a pointless question. The game is balanced in the town's favor, so I made a suggestion that would make it better for the SKs without really hurting the town. Anyway, though, this branch of discussion isn't really relevant. I was just rambling on in continuation of the statement that the SKs lack the information that most mafia games give to scum. This is why SK is a notoriously difficult role to play, in any setup. They lack the information that makes a regular mafia powerful.

Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

But it

does

apply in this setup, so stop avoiding the claims I've put forward and start answering for your play throughout this game.

Are you

serious

?

Need I say more?

Seriously, though. I have nothing to answer for. You have made no claims against me. Your only "claim", per se, is that I'm either a noob or scum. All other statements you have made regarding your suspicion of me have been addressed repeatedly, in this post and others. If anything, you're the one who's been avoiding. You have yet to explain how it could possible apply in this setup, whereas I have given reasons for it not to apply. All you have said so far is that "it

does

apply in this setup". That's not a very convincing reason, and frankly, I'm tiring of hearing you repeat your useless propoganda.

Explain OR Refrain

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Then kill me, at least we have some progress in this random game then.

Unvote Vote: Kscope

[ryan]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Then kill me, at least we have some progress in this random game then.

Unvote Vote: Kscope

[/quote]

You are voting yourself? Heh?

[YagamiLight]

You know, I've never liked when people vote for themselves. It always just seems like they are giving up.

[ryan]

I would hope people would NOT jump on KaleiÐoscøpe's bandwagon. I'd much rather see a townie replaced than obviously killed. For those of you who have voted, for the towns sake, please unvote. It is pretty obvious KaleiÐoscøpe is a townie who's bored, so let's get somebody in here that wants to scumhunt instead of lynching an obvious townie

[yellowbounder]

Actually wait, that was wrong. The sun's not setting. And those aren't drums, they're just that bird singing. That's interesting.

DEADLINE REMOVED

Discussion has increased to an acceptable level. However, the next deadline will be unremovable. Feel free to ask for prods at any time, and don't forget to post.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

You know, I've never liked when people vote for themselves. It always just seems like they are giving up.

Well, that's not true. It's just that this day leads to nothing. Everyone votes and everyone unvotes and everybody doesn't know what the hell they are doing. We're not going to get any scumsigns because there aren't any. The only thing the SK have to do is secure their own lives. That's it. There just needs to die someone. Then we can make progress.

so let's get somebody in here that wants to scumhunt instead of lynching an obvious townie

Define "Scumhunt". There is no scumhunt. It's random guessing and hoping we are right. SK's relate to no one, so we should not try to think logical and just lynch random for the first few days and then analyse the people who got targeted and who the victems attacked.

[ryan]

Why are you acting protown after you just wanted us to kill you?

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Being pro-town is subjective this game. Technicly everyone plays for themselves.

[bethelmark]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Being pro-town is subjective this game. Technicly everyone plays for themselves.[/quote]

You know, he's kinda right. When push comes to shove, Townies are just gonna make sure that it isn't their head being fitted into the noose. Same with the SKs, althought it's a bit more vital for them. Technically, everyone

is

playing for themselves.

In later days, we'll have tons more information, and it will be easier to catch the SKs than now, but that's just how this game works. Voting habits reveal nothing at this point, and there aren't any obvious, legitimate scumtells to rely on, so we really don't have too much information.

[YogurtBandit]

Vote:Ksope

Still WIFOM, Sk Or Mafia.

[ryan]

I think we have more information about players and their tendencies than you are letting on. People who haven't been active with content can be looked upon as people just sailing by and blending in. I think the way people have posted, voted and what content they've given be looked upon as information

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not playing for myself. I would defend myself, should I be attacked, but I care far more about the well-being of the town on the whole than my own townie life.

[ButteBlues]

Why would a no lynch be bad in this situation? I would rather no lynch than lynch randomly. If we no lynch, we lose no one. If we lynch randomly, we most likely lose a townie. Having no one die is better than having a townie die. That's why we need to make an informed lynch instead of randomly wagoning, because that's not going to help us.

A random lynch has been and always will be better than a no lynch. This is basic friggin theory. You should know better. In fact, I'm damned sure that any player who's been here more than a week knows this.

Unvote, Vote: Mastermind of Sin

No lynch'ing in this game is a death wish. I'm confident that any player worth their salt knows this. So either you've got to be a complete noob at mafia or you're scum. Plain as that.

Ah, yes. Basic game theory. However, you forget the fact that this game does not apply to basic game theory.

Every game ever is subject to the relevancy of some or most of basic game theory.

Not to mention the fact that there are numerous situations where no lynch is better than a random lynch. For example, when you get down to a point in the game where there is only 1 kill a night, and there are 10 or less people alive, at an even number, you should always no lynch to get it to an odd number of people. This is

basic friggin theory

, ya know.

Yeah - there are also other times like when it's -1 to LYLO and nobody has a clue who scum is.

The current status of the game is nothing like that. You're talking about a moot point here. It's really essentially a strawman when you boil it down.

You're the one who said that a random lynch will

always

be better than a no lynch.

And I'm sure I'm the _only_ person on the face of the Earth who's ever used a hyperbole to get a point across too.

I merely proved your base assumption wrong, which makes your entire argument unstable.

What you did was take a hyperbole and apply it at literal value rather than looking at the intended message it sends.

You can't dismiss this fact just because the example I used does not apply to this game.

What you said was that not all of the basic theory applies in every game. Okay. Fine. I'm not arguing.

But that doesn't mean that it is applicable, which is why I _can_ dismiss the argument.

I used an example that is a set in stone obvious situation where your assumption is wrong. I can hardly use the current game as an example, since this is the situation we are arguing over. I'd really like to see you argue that the example I gave applies to your assumption that a random lynch is better.

That hypothetical is not the point here. It is completely moot. It offers no relevancy to this game whatsoever.

Anyways, the normal rules do not apply to this game.

You should rethink that. Basic theory, while not universal or ubiquitous for all setups, is often quite relevant in some part or another in every setup imaginable.

I didn't say that it wasn't relevant to some part of this game. You cut off my statement where I explained what made this game different from others. Taking my quote out of context isn't going to help you.[/quote]

Since we're taking things at face value here, you're the one who claimed your statement was ubiquitous first.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

And what's your point?

Just because there could be another setup with only SK as scum doesn't change the fact that not all basic theory applies.[/quote]

Much of basic theory applies in such setups as I described. There's a slight additional layer of complexity in this one. Other than that, not much has changed.

Besides, as I said, my statement was an obvious hyperbole intended to drive a point home rather than be entirely, 100% accurate.

Not to mention the fact that I have never played in a setup on Mafiascum where there has only been an SK as scum.

That's unfortunate.

I have played in SK-only setups numerous times (though, not here).

The only other setup I have seen where there is no informed minority was Committee Mafia, in which the normal basic theory did NOT apply. I would know, since I modded the game.

I find it hard to believe any one setup defies _every_ bit of basic theory, but again, hyperboles are fun, aren't they?

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

That's not an advantage. That's taking away an advantage from the town.[/quote]

Okay, so in a more common setup, you'd have the informed, powered minority versus the powered majority. Let's say the power of each side equates to one apple. Now, we're going to make the minority uninformed, but keep their power, and take the power away from the majority. One side still has the power roles (ie. killing roles/SKs), while the other relies entirely on the lynch to win.

That's giving the minority a hand, even if they're playing blind.

Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

But it

does

apply in this setup, so stop avoiding the claims I've put forward and start answering for your play throughout this game.

Are you

serious

?

Need I say more?

Seriously, though. I have nothing to answer for. You have made no claims against me. Your only "claim", per se, is that I'm either a noob or scum.[/quote]

My claim is that since you're not a noob, and your entire stance on the "let's no lynch" thing is only something a noob _would_ say, you've got to be scum. There is absolutely _no_ logical reason not to lynch on Day 1 in this setup.

All other statements you have made regarding your suspicion of me have been addressed repeatedly, in this post and others.

You still haven't made any case as to why a no lynch is actually the right play that has stuck.

If anything, you're the one who's been avoiding.

Oh?

You have yet to explain how it could possible apply in this setup, whereas I have given reasons for it not to apply.

You supplied hypothetical scenarios where a No Lynch is the right play. Awesome. Have a cookie. But they're entirely irrelevant to THIS setup. You've explained nothing.

All you have said so far is that "it

does

apply in this setup". That's not a very convincing reason, and frankly, I'm tiring of hearing you repeat your useless propoganda.

To be candid, I'm surprised no one else has taken as much notice of your proposed No Lynching this early in the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm omitting the top part, because it is rather pointless and off-topic for us to argue those things, as I'm sure you agree. It just wastes space and time for the both of us. I also edited out parts where we both would've just degenerated into mindless insults over something that wasn't really relevant.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

And what's your point?

Just because there could be another setup with only SK as scum doesn't change the fact that not all basic theory applies.

Much of basic theory applies in such setups as I described. There's a slight additional layer of complexity in this one. Other than that, not much has changed.

Much of basic theory does apply. However, it is not a fact that random lynches are better than no lynch in an SK-only setup. That's what we're arguing about. There is no proof that your statement is correct in the other setups you described, so we do not know whether or not it is true in this setup.

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

That's not an advantage. That's taking away an advantage from the town.

Okay, so in a more common setup, you'd have the informed, powered minority versus the powered majority. Let's say the power of each side equates to one apple. Now, we're going to make the minority uninformed, but keep their power, and take the power away from the majority. One side still has the power roles (ie. killing roles/SKs), while the other relies entirely on the lynch to win.

That's giving the minority a hand, even if they're playing blind.

That's just wrong. The "common" setup is an informed, doubly-powered (kills and other abilities such as godfather) minority against a powered majority. You take away the power from both sides, leaving you with the powered, informed minority against the majority. This is the basic, balanced setup originally created by Dimma Davidoff in Moscow. This setup takes the informed minority and makes it uninformed, but gives it a few extra kills a night. Then it gives the majority even more people to balance out the extra kills, but does not make up for the fact that the minority is no longer informed. Sure, the game is still winnable for scum, but it's much harder now.

Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

But it

does

apply in this setup, so stop avoiding the claims I've put forward and start answering for your play throughout this game.

Are you

serious

?

Need I say more?

Seriously, though. I have nothing to answer for. You have made no claims against me. Your only "claim", per se, is that I'm either a noob or scum.

My claim is that since you're not a noob, and your entire stance on the "let's no lynch" thing is only something a noob _would_ say, you've got to be scum. There is absolutely _no_ logical reason not to lynch on Day 1 in this setup.

There is also no logical reason to random lynch on Day 1. Which is why we should neither no lynch nor random lynch.

All other statements you have made regarding your suspicion of me have been addressed repeatedly, in this post and others.

You still haven't made any case as to why a no lynch is actually the right play that has stuck.

It's

not

the right play. Neither is a random lynch. You have yet to make a case as to why a random lynch is actually the right play.

If anything, you're the one who's been avoiding.

Oh?

You have yet to explain how it could possible apply in this setup, whereas I have given reasons for it not to apply.

You supplied hypothetical scenarios where a No Lynch is the right play. Awesome. Have a cookie. But they're entirely irrelevant to THIS setup. You've explained nothing.

And you have? You have yet to supply ANY scenarios, this setup or otherwise, that show that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. I, on the other hand, have explained how random lynching and losing an extra townie is not beneficial in this situation. We have plenty of time to catch the three SKs, let's not squander it by randomly lynching protown people. The more informed our lynches are, the better chance we have to find scum.

All you have said so far is that "it

does

apply in this setup". That's not a very convincing reason, and frankly, I'm tiring of hearing you repeat your useless propoganda.

To be candid, I'm surprised no one else has taken as much notice of your proposed No Lynching this early in the game.

You need to pay more attention before you get all gung-ho next time. Nowhere have I said that no lynch is my preferred plan of action right now. Do you see me voting No Lynch? No. That's because I want to have an informed lynch, which gives us a better chance of finding scum than either a no lynch or a random lynch. I merely support no lynch over the proposed random lynch, which would not help us at all.

[Estes]

I appreciate MoS actually thinking and discussing suggestions.

and, for the moment I'm going to

unvote, vote: no lynch

while I think about what has been said.

[YagamiLight]

Right now I believe we wont find any logical reasons to lynch because the SK's don't know who each other are yet, and in a game like this everyone is going to look the same until the scum go after each other. Also, after rethinking the game, it doesn't matter how many people die, the SK's will probably go after each other shortly after discovering each other. In other words I'm at a loss about what to do now.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Vote:Ksope

Still WIFOM, Sk Or Mafia.

Omg, you got me. I'm scum.

[ButteBlues]

I'm omitting the top part, because it is rather pointless and off-topic for us to argue those things, as I'm sure you agree. It just wastes space and time for the both of us. I also edited out parts where we both would've just degenerated into mindless insults over something that wasn't really relevant.

Quite.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

And what's your point?

Just because there could be another setup with only SK as scum doesn't change the fact that not all basic theory applies.

Much of basic theory applies in such setups as I described. There's a slight additional layer of complexity in this one. Other than that, not much has changed.

Much of basic theory does apply. However, it is not a fact that random lynches are better than no lynch in an SK-only setup. That's what we're arguing about. There is no proof that your statement is correct in the other setups you described, so we do not know whether or not it is true in this setup.[/quote]

For Day 1 it _is_. At a later point in the game when we don't have 15 town, then sure, I can see scenarios where NL is definitely the right play.

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

That's not an advantage. That's taking away an advantage from the town.

Okay, so in a more common setup, you'd have the informed, powered minority versus the powered majority. Let's say the power of each side equates to one apple. Now, we're going to make the minority uninformed, but keep their power, and take the power away from the majority. One side still has the power roles (ie. killing roles/SKs), while the other relies entirely on the lynch to win.

That's giving the minority a hand, even if they're playing blind.

That's just wrong. The "common" setup is an informed, doubly-powered (kills and other abilities such as godfather) minority against a powered majority.[/quote]

That's dependent on a few things (number of players mainly), but sure, I can go with that.

You take away the power from both sides, leaving you with the powered, informed minority against the majority. This is the basic, balanced setup originally created by Dimma Davidoff in Moscow. This setup takes the informed minority and makes it uninformed, but gives it a few extra kills a night. Then it gives the majority even more people to balance out the extra kills, but does not make up for the fact that the minority is no longer informed. Sure, the game is still winnable for scum, but it's much harder now.

I think you're putting too little off-set in the increased number of kills. Sure, it is, by definition, harder for any one given scum to win because there's not a team of scum working together. On the other hand, the other scum are going to be getting nightly kills as well, to which the given SK afore-noted is immune. What it all boils down to, is we have three needles in a haystack and they have a damn good shot at this game.

Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

But it

does

apply in this setup, so stop avoiding the claims I've put forward and start answering for your play throughout this game.

Are you

serious

?

Need I say more?

Seriously, though. I have nothing to answer for. You have made no claims against me. Your only "claim", per se, is that I'm either a noob or scum.

My claim is that since you're not a noob, and your entire stance on the "let's no lynch" thing is only something a noob _would_ say, you've got to be scum. There is absolutely _no_ logical reason not to lynch on Day 1 in this setup.

There is also no logical reason to random lynch on Day 1. Which is why we should neither no lynch nor random lynch.

There are plenty of reasons for which a Day 1 lynch is a very good, and in many cases, necessary thing.

Especially given that in this setup we have no power roles amongst the town by which information can be gleaned (ie. cops), we need to start narrowing down the number of folks among the town who could be scum. Lynching, along with the SKs night kills, will accomplish this, and as a result, move us along towards ratting out the SKs and lynching _them_.

All you have said so far is that "it

does

apply in this setup". That's not a very convincing reason, and frankly, I'm tiring of hearing you repeat your useless propoganda.

To be candid, I'm surprised no one else has taken as much notice of your proposed No Lynching this early in the game.

You need to pay more attention before you get all gung-ho next time. Nowhere have I said that no lynch is my preferred plan of action right now. Do you see me voting No Lynch? No. That's because I want to have an informed lynch, which gives us a better chance of finding scum than either a no lynch or a random lynch. I merely support no lynch over the proposed random lynch, which would not help us at all.

[/quote]

This setup cannot possibly have an informed Day 1 lynch. Most setups don't. The fact of the matter is, in either case, for this Day, in order to start progressing, we simply need to make a lynch. If it has to be a random lynch in order to achieve it, then so be it. Then we can finally move on to the part of the game where we can start making informed lynches.

[ButteBlues]

I'm omitting the top part, because it is rather pointless and off-topic for us to argue those things, as I'm sure you agree. It just wastes space and time for the both of us. I also edited out parts where we both would've just degenerated into mindless insults over something that wasn't really relevant.

Quite.

This is not

mafia

per se. There is no informed minority. We have an uninformed majority against and uninformed minority.

Which is no different from any other setup with only SK as scum, except there are no power roles.

And what's your point?

Just because there could be another setup with only SK as scum doesn't change the fact that not all basic theory applies.

Much of basic theory applies in such setups as I described. There's a slight additional layer of complexity in this one. Other than that, not much has changed.

Much of basic theory does apply. However, it is not a fact that random lynches are better than no lynch in an SK-only setup. That's what we're arguing about. There is no proof that your statement is correct in the other setups you described, so we do not know whether or not it is true in this setup.[/quote]

For Day 1 it _is_. At a later point in the game when we don't have 15 town, then sure, I can see scenarios where NL is definitely the right play.

There is no advanatage to the SKs, because they only know their role, and no one else's.

Yes there is. There are no power roles among the town by which scum can be ratted out.

That's not an advantage. That's taking away an advantage from the town.

Okay, so in a more common setup, you'd have the informed, powered minority versus the powered majority. Let's say the power of each side equates to one apple. Now, we're going to make the minority uninformed, but keep their power, and take the power away from the majority. One side still has the power roles (ie. killing roles/SKs), while the other relies entirely on the lynch to win.

That's giving the minority a hand, even if they're playing blind.

That's just wrong. The "common" setup is an informed, doubly-powered (kills and other abilities such as godfather) minority against a powered majority.[/quote]

That's dependent on a few things (number of players mainly), but sure, I can go with that.

You take away the power from both sides, leaving you with the powered, informed minority against the majority. This is the basic, balanced setup originally created by Dimma Davidoff in Moscow. This setup takes the informed minority and makes it uninformed, but gives it a few extra kills a night. Then it gives the majority even more people to balance out the extra kills, but does not make up for the fact that the minority is no longer informed. Sure, the game is still winnable for scum, but it's much harder now.

I think you're putting too little off-set in the increased number of kills. Sure, it is, by definition, harder for any one given scum to win because there's not a team of scum working together. On the other hand, the other scum are going to be getting nightly kills as well, to which the given SK afore-noted is immune. What it all boils down to, is we have three needles in a haystack and they have a damn good shot at this game.

Sure, anyone who's played more than a week knows that a random lynch is better than a no lynch. However, anyone that's played more than 2 weeks should know that no game theory applies in 100% of all situations, and that one should always be willing to question game theory when it seems unsound.

But it

does

apply in this setup, so stop avoiding the claims I've put forward and start answering for your play throughout this game.

Are you

serious

?

Need I say more?

Seriously, though. I have nothing to answer for. You have made no claims against me. Your only "claim", per se, is that I'm either a noob or scum.

My claim is that since you're not a noob, and your entire stance on the "let's no lynch" thing is only something a noob _would_ say, you've got to be scum. There is absolutely _no_ logical reason not to lynch on Day 1 in this setup.

There is also no logical reason to random lynch on Day 1. Which is why we should neither no lynch nor random lynch.

There are plenty of reasons for which a Day 1 lynch is a very good, and in many cases, necessary thing.

Especially given that in this setup we have no power roles amongst the town by which information can be gleaned (ie. cops), we need to start narrowing down the number of folks among the town who could be scum. Lynching, along with the SKs night kills, will accomplish this, and as a result, move us along towards ratting out the SKs and lynching _them_.

All you have said so far is that "it

does

apply in this setup". That's not a very convincing reason, and frankly, I'm tiring of hearing you repeat your useless propoganda.

To be candid, I'm surprised no one else has taken as much notice of your proposed No Lynching this early in the game.

You need to pay more attention before you get all gung-ho next time. Nowhere have I said that no lynch is my preferred plan of action right now. Do you see me voting No Lynch? No. That's because I want to have an informed lynch, which gives us a better chance of finding scum than either a no lynch or a random lynch. I merely support no lynch over the proposed random lynch, which would not help us at all.

[/quote]

This setup cannot possibly have an informed Day 1 lynch. Most setups don't. The fact of the matter is, in either case, for this Day, in order to start progressing, we simply need to make a lynch. If it has to be a random lynch in order to achieve it, then so be it. Then we can finally move on to the part of the game where we can start making informed lynches.

[ryan]

Rules

You don't need me to tell you the reasons you're going around killing people, or how you're going to kill them. In fact, you need to tell me.

Each night, you can target someone to kill in your own special way.

If you target another SK, then you can't kill them because they're out killing. If, for some horribly unknown reason, they're not out killing, then they've locked the door. You cannot kill another SK at night. Stop trying.

You win by killing everything else in Redtown, except potted plants. You can understand them.

To confirm, PM the mod why you're a SK in Redtown, and your unique method of "disposal". By the way, just because there's some flavour in this town doesn't mean you have to listen to it. Hell, you could be a evil alien zombie robot vampire from the future, and I still wouldn't care.
(Note that I am not permitting evil alien zombie robot vampires. Even if they're from the past.)

This is being forgotten so I'm bringing it back up. SK's can't kill eachother, we as a town have to eliminate them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Out of curiousity, what made you think that was forgotten? Neither BB nor I said anything about the SKs killing each other, and no one else is talking about the setup...