Micro 438: Greatest Idea Mafia - Game Over

[theslimer3]

Mylo, not lylo

[Alchemist21]

btw istott a post of yours this page pinged me. I might come back to it tomorrow.

im putting off vote for a few minutes.
In your pm, do you determine guilt, or mafianess?

Mafianess

okay,my hats what I've got. Still, you might not nessesarily be town, even if you are cop (unlikely).

V0te: Diego

So, what are you really?

Was this 141 of his the post that pinged you?

[MrTrow]

I'm liking mrtrow's argument against Eye's claims here. But Eye has a pretty scope on the mass claim thing here. Despite his logic for doing so, this may well be lylo.
I don't think he's a cop, and I don't trust his result, but somehow I don't think he's scum. Especially not the one to preform the night kill. Probably because of his hammering a cop.

So you think he is a townie who fake-claimed cop to get someone (who flipped cop) lynched?
Sorry but one of us is missing something here.

Also, yes it is possible we are in mylo.
So?
The only reason we know we weren't in lylo yesterday is the fact espeonage and eyestott rammed through a town-lynch and the game didn't end

Do you see any possible outcome of this mass-claim, where powers and allignments don't need to have anything to do with one-another, that would make the D1 lynch any less scum-driven?
Or any other effect on allignment?
(e.g. even it it were to convince you eye is indeed a cop, how would that exclude the possibility of a werewolf-alligned cop?)

Alchemist:
what do you think about my assessment the lynch must have been scum-driven?

[Alchemist21]

I'm liking mrtrow's argument against Eye's claims here. But Eye has a pretty scope on the mass claim thing here. Despite his logic for doing so, this may well be lylo.
I don't think he's a cop, and I don't trust his result, but somehow I don't think he's scum. Especially not the one to preform the night kill. Probably because of his hammering a cop.

So you think he is a townie who fake-claimed cop to get someone (who flipped cop) lynched?
Sorry but one of us is missing something here.

Also, yes it is possible we are in mylo.
So?
The only reason we know we weren't in lylo yesterday is the fact espeonage and eyestott rammed through a town-lynch and the game didn't end

Do you see any possible outcome of this mass-claim, where powers and allignments don't need to have anything to do with one-another, that would make the D1 lynch any less scum-driven?
Or any other effect on allignment?
(e.g. even it it were to convince you eye is indeed a cop, how would that exclude the possibility of a werewolf-alligned cop?)

Alchemist:
what do you think about my assessment the lynch must have been scum-driven?

Well there was Christmas, but his RVS on Diego was the only post he had. Eyestott might actually be Town. I don't see scum motive in how he was claiming Cop D1. I think Guille looks pretty scummy. He initially pushed the wagon to L-1. He unvoted sometime later, but Eyestott somehow magically convinced him Diego was scum.

I think if there's a second scum here, it's Guille, but I'd say the wagon was more derp-driven than scum-driven.

[MrTrow]

You think a D1 less than 24-hour (3 players effective afk and 2 rvs-votes) lynch (of a cop) is not scum-driven?

leaving espeonage, eyestott and guille on the lynch. (your vote obv-rvs and your allignment not in question (i agree with the 'scum wouldn't have thrown out vanilla-izer power' and christmas rvs, despite the detail we now know he had reason not to jump in and stop this, i think we can agree he wasn't driving this thing)

i assume we agree guille wasn't driving either (and i can see his vote being 'derp' , though i would like to know what made him

magically convinced

)

espeonage and eyestott however both pushed bullshit to make sure this lynch got through (preferably before either of the RVS-voters on him would return)

[MrTrow]

As for 'not seeing the scum motive' regarding the cop-claim.
Do you see a town motivation?
Diego's claim(in response to an 'intend to hammer') was already considered 'questionable', by the player who had taken the town-leader position at that point.
There was no reason why a town-cop would counter-claim over hammering, especially in a game where the counter-claim is not conclusive.

[Espeonage]

I had a quick look at the thread via phone and someone said something about a vig. Which is hella unlikely with so few kills. Chances are one shot was mafia, other shot was wolves.

One of istott and Trow is scum.
guile may be scum but I don't really think so.
slimer is probs scum due to numbers.
Alch is still conftown

massclaim is a bad idea.

[MrTrow]

ah.
espeonage, good to see you're here.
Lets start this off lightly:
- what is thread-diving and why is it an excuse to wait with voting a person you consider likely scum for discarding 'investigates as cult' till after you figure out what the role does thus shattering the entire 'prob-scum due to discard (only to still place exactly that vote)
- what did you think that role did?
- what numbers in this 'balance explicitly not guaranteed'-game are the basis for your slimer-accusation

after those answers we can move on to the interesting stuff (can you guess what?)

[Espeonage]

1. Because I didn't know that was what was chucked. And also not the reason I voted him.
2. Town recruiter.
3. The fact that the game didn't fly first roll because too much scums.

[MrTrow]

1. still leaves: 'what is thread diving?', am i to assume 'didn't know that was what was chucked' refers to the misunderstanding what the role was? And also what was the reason you did vote him?
2. sounds fair.
3. this was what i was looking for: you were aware it was 'too much scums'(not too few) why the first roll failed(thanks for confirming the 1st roll anti-town claim and your assumption it would still be the case).
Yet you claim you chose to be town out of fear of being on your own as scum.
Can you explain this?

[Espeonage]

I was looking through Grand Ideas thread.

Ok, now as I said I feel far less comfortable as scum in a game such as this because I have no idea if I will have a balanced scum group. There may be a heap of scum but I have no guarantee that I will actually be able to survive if all the other people that were to choose scum were in different factions.

I went SK last roll because I would have been hella strong with my role combo and SK is reward in itself because it's my favourite alignment.

[MrTrow]

So in a multikill-frenzy(pretty much the worst case scenario if you were to choose scum and not extremely likely at that) you felt safer as 'team target' than as effectively your favorite alignment (with a nightkill) AND a power which is useful to a killing faction?
I don't think we're gonna get any further on this, guess possible but very unlikely is where it stays.

So what exactly about reading the Grand Ideas thread (in which i can find what Evangelistic does btw) is a reason to claim: you have a reason to claim there is a 'prob-scum due to discards' but not vote?
What was the reason you did end up voting diego?
What is your reason for not voting now?

[Espeonage]

1. Can you rephrase that? Don't really get what you're asking.
2. For wagon.
3. Shrug.

[Alchemist21]

And this still doesn't cover;
1. Why he took Cop when he didn't think it was that big of a deal when he also had MASON. and
2. Why he wouldn't just take Mason from those cards in the first place which is the stronger role.

I wold have taken Cop rather than Mason. I actually did take Cop over Mason in my last roll. I don't see how mason is a better role. And Any Newbie would think like that.

alright you have convinced me.

VOTE: Diego

@Trow, here we see Guille trying to say how Diego's cop claim is feasible, but then suddenly voted because he was convinced. Convinced by what? It's not even clear who convinced him.

You might have a point about Esp though. I didn't catch his scumminess at first, but looking back I saw where he explicitly said he didn't mind a short D1.

I'll need to look back at the context of Eyestott's claim, but my gut still tells me he's telling the truth.

[Espeonage]

Contrary to didn't mind, the word is "wanted".

[Alchemist21]

Ok, Eyestott was counterclaiming Diego's Cop claim. It seems reasonable to me to think he'd take the 1-for-1 trade because he thought he was catching scum.

I think I want Esp and Guille both dead now.

[Espeonage]

Actually just remembered something.

guille is the crux here.

I'm pretty sure I can correctly guess what guille will claim. However, given the lack of kills I'm thinking it might be a fake claim.

I covered this day 1 cryptically.

[Alchemist21]

should I really?

Yeah, looking from it, he's not receiving help and town players are likely to be loaded with useful actions.

Just from a theory perspective, this exists in the night is important part of Nati's spectrum.

Which is why I don't mind a stupidly short day phase

.

The wording of "wanted" doesn't make it sound better anyway.

[Espeonage]

Ok, Eyestott was counterclaiming Diego's Cop claim. It seems reasonable to me to think he'd take the 1-for-1 trade because he thought he was catching scum.

I think I want Esp and Guille both dead now.

I might claim my intentions from day 1.

My aims for day 1:
1. Become a kill target.
2. Avoid town power roles wanting to target me.

I figured that the easiest way to do this was to;
a. Clear someone so any protective actions hit them.
b. Be in a position where I could get investigates to not target me.
c. Either be super townie, which was never going to happen given my history of preferring scum roles.
d. Find a way to get shot outside this.

When diego was getting run up and was put under pressure I wanted to try and see if he would crack under extra votes, as I could then get a quick lynch, quickly cover what I needed to for (b) and then take a leadership role in the town to draw the kill. This was backed up after I accomplished (a) with my setup spec so scum wouldn't shoot alch. If I ended the day spearheading a quick scum lynch I'd get shot thus accomplishing all of my goals for the day.

I am a 1-shot PGO.

[Espeonage]

I evidently wasn't targeted last night which make sense because my spearhead of a scum lynch wasn't a scum lynch.

[MrTrow]

1.
You claimed to have found a reason in the discards to call 'someone'(explicitly unnamed at that point) prob-scum
You claimed to have a reason to not vote (only implied to be related after you revealed(in a way that was apparently clear to all but me) what the reason was)
You later revealed the reason for not voting to be: actually not knowing what was discarded.
Aren't these things mutually exclusive?
Also isn't this whole 'i found prob scum, here somewhere, but i'm not giving further hints', standard fake-hunting?

Also why were you trying to find the role in 'the discussion thread that inspired this mechanic' rather than the wiki-page containing the role-list the mod provided in the rules?

2.
so basically you ordered a quick-hammer on a town-cop for rvs-wagon? (this might actually be the most honest thing that happened in yesterday's lynch
was it also 'for wagon' you discarded the 'no i didn't claim cop because of the discussion how useful this is, i crumbed the role prior to that discussion' or was that 'for shrug'?

3.
you have a strong preference for anti-town roles and have referred to 'some good articles about ....'
could refer me to a (preferably non-joke) guide to playing as an anti-town faction which doesn't have 'promote shrug' as a top 3 tool?
alternatively, could you provide any reason why anyone else should vote, on for example either of the 2 in your 'one of them must be scum'-pool or the one who 'must be scum because numbers'(preferably something else than, 'must be scum because numbers')

p-edit:

@Trow, here we see Guille trying to say how Diego's cop claim is feasible, but then suddenly voted because he was convinced. Convinced by what? It's not even clear who convinced him.
I'll need to look back at the context of Eyestott's claim, but my gut still tells me he's telling the truth.

i assume we agree guille wasn't driving either (and i can see his vote being 'derp' , though i would like to know what made him magically convinced)

regarding guille, i think we agree: guille could you clear this up please (i have a suspicion and i doubt you could do worse)

as for eyestott's claim. yes you should go and look at it yourself, but to paraphrase:
eye: i want to hammer
diego: ok i'm about to get lynched, so claim: cop
esp: yeah, not buying it
eye: no, i'm the cop, may i hammer now?
(esp: yes and fast please)
he effectively already had esp's permission to hammer(and wasn't really waiting for anyone else, though later he wanted to show he did wait for others)
there was no town reason what so ever for eye to claim cop(even if it is true).

pp-edit:
ok esp, i'll have to think about this.
That is one weird claim

[Espeonage]

1.
You claimed to have found a reason in the discards to call 'someone'(explicitly unnamed at that point) prob-scum

Yes, it was based on me thinking something incorrectly though.

You claimed to have a reason to not vote (only implied to be related after you revealed(in a way that was apparently clear to all but me) what the reason was)
You later revealed the reason for not voting to be: actually not knowing what was discarded.
Aren't these things mutually exclusive?
Also isn't this whole 'i found prob scum, here somewhere, but i'm not giving further hints', standard fake-hunting?

Nah, I wanted to double check because I might have been incorrect on the evidence I was using which I was.

Also why were you trying to find the role in 'the discussion thread that inspired this mechanic' rather than the wiki-page containing the role-list the mod provided in the rules?

Because I didn't read the rules

2.
so basically you ordered a quick-hammer on a town-cop for rvs-wagon? (this might actually be the most honest thing that happened in yesterday's lynch

Yes and no. My vote was for pressure and is outlined in my post above. I was sure I'd found scum after I applied pressure though so I had no reason not to push through the lynch

was it also 'for wagon' you discarded the 'no i didn't claim cop because of the discussion how useful this is, i crumbed the role prior to that discussion' or was that 'for shrug'?

???

3.
you have a strong preference for anti-town roles and have referred to 'some good articles about ....'
could refer me to a (preferably non-joke) guide to playing as an anti-town faction which doesn't have 'promote shrug' as a top 3 tool?

Probs, look under articles on the wiki. Some of them are good

alternatively, could you provide any reason why anyone else should vote, on for example either of the 2 in your 'one of them must be scum'-pool or the one who 'must be scum because numbers'(preferably something else than, 'must be scum because numbers')

Maybe

p-edit:

@Trow, here we see Guille trying to say how Diego's cop claim is feasible, but then suddenly voted because he was convinced. Convinced by what? It's not even clear who convinced him.
I'll need to look back at the context of Eyestott's claim, but my gut still tells me he's telling the truth.

i assume we agree guille wasn't driving either (and i can see his vote being 'derp' , though i would like to know what made him magically convinced)

regarding guille, i think we agree: guille could you clear this up please (i have a suspicion and i doubt you could do worse)

as for eyestott's claim. yes you should go and look at it yourself, but to paraphrase:
eye: i want to hammer
diego: ok i'm about to get lynched, so claim: cop
esp: yeah, not buying it
eye: no, i'm the cop, may i hammer now?
(esp: yes and fast please)
he effectively already had esp's permission to hammer(and wasn't really waiting for anyone else, though later he wanted to show he did wait for others)
there was no town reason what so ever for eye to claim cop(even if it is true).

pp-edit:
ok esp, i'll have to think about this.
That is one weird claim

[Espeonage]

In case it wasn't obvious. Responses in bold.

[guille2015]

I wasn't convinced that he was scum. I thought that all the time, Well maybe I wavered it a bit when I saw the Crumb. I wanted to wait for those that did not show up to post their remarks. But I was convinced that it would have been detrimental to the game if we waited. I don't think that Esp and Eyestott where wrong in thinking like that so I let it be.

ESP is town. Eyestott is Town too, but he could have still been scum. Remember that he could still be a cop but anti-town alignment. However, His v0te test makes me think that he wanted to honestly test Diego, for which makes me think Eyestott is more likely town than not.

Trow is town because he discarded a "SureWin" card. Gets lynched and everyone on his team wins. Not sure if he would have won himself (Maybe selfvoting), but we can ask Micc if there is any doubt.

That leaves Alchemist and TheSlimer.

And since there is nothing better than a Vanillanizer for scum, That leaves Slimer as scum.

The problem is that If Lynching Slimer keeps the game going. Which would mean that either ESP and Eyestott is the last scum.

Vote: Slimer

[Espeonage]

That's not what Trow's thrown role does.