Newbie 1572 - Chicken Parmigiana Mafia (Over)

[Diego1487]

@Zombiekitty

My Ika vote was random. I'll wait to see if Bitmap defends himself or

anyone else looks scummy.

So you're only looking for people who "looks" scummy rather than someone who actually IS scummy? Hm.

This is the third version of my post. It's finding hard to put this into words, but uh lessee here
Your argument is that I used the word "looks" instead of "is", correct?
This implies, in your mind, that I am mafia/really bad town (actually the latter is true but I haven't played this for a year so) because ???
At this stage in the game (Day 0 or 1 [?]), with no night actions, and not a whole lot of posts, the difference is arbitrary. Nobody

is

scum– well, as far as any of us know (except for scum I guess :\). We can only go off of who

looks

like scum.
Does any of that make sense? Right now, the difference between the words is negligible and hardly an indicator of my mafia-ness.
Or something ¯\_( )_/¯

I'm going to take a crack at this one. As you said, only scum know who scum are, so they are trying to find others that

look

scummy. He's making the argument that you scum slipped by admitting that is what you're doing.

While I'm not willing to classify you as scum based solely on this, I will keep it in the back of my mind.

[Diego1487]

I do a meta read on Drixx later.

That will be a bit of a waste of your time. I'm in my 2nd and 3rd games on site, and I was posting huge walls of text and using hyperactivity in my first game when I replaced into a scum slot. I'm intentionally avoiding doing that as a general rule, and my posts are therefore more succinct, and sometimes truncated for that reason.

It seems interesting how much you seem to be attempting to run/guide the game.

There is more to meta than finding post lengths and activity level. What I find interesting is your annoyance of Bitmap's playstlyle when you also try to run/guide the game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I would be interested to know why you think VCA is rubbish, but that can be after the game if you don't feel it's useful to the game at hand to discuss it.

I'm not DDD but good scum can manipulate VCA.

I don't think you even need to be good scum to manipulate VCA; just don't care about VCA as scum and it generally won't be accurate. As far as I can tell there's two types of VCA: 1) relational which usually comes down to "I think there's only one scum on this wagon" or "both scum are on this wagon" which I've never seen a good explanation for and is basically thwarted by the fact that scum don't have daytalk and thus there's no elaborate scheme of "make sure we're not on the same wagon" because things like that are too complicated to arbitrarily force. 2) positional and this just usually boils down to old scumtells like scum are most often third on the wagon and I've simply never seen any sort of credible analysis for such things; I might be convinced that scum are slightly less likely than town to start a wagon but even then there's a difference between starting a wagon and being the first vote on it in some cases. All in all I've never seen it been demonstrated to have repeatable success of any sort.

[fjkldsjh]

Read Diego.

#23 and #51 aren’t thrilling. I don’t have a problem with #17 and #31 is good. #62 is boring but I honestly like his sass in #66 even if it’s misplaced. Yeah, I’m not seeing why I needed to read Diego. And I've read your inane question argument and I find it doesn't hold water, I've asked some weird nonsense over the years to try and get in someone's head (both trying to understand them and throw them off to get a more accurate read).

In fact, let's ask you an inane question... Do you have the same alignment as ika?

Well what sort of nonsense?

As for ika, I read him. He seems more likely to be town than scum at this point, so I would say yes.

[fjkldsjh]

Now do I vote fjk because of his scum statements about me and how he quickly backed off without using a vote the whole entire time or do I push Drixx who has been flinging nonsense at me. I don't think ika is scum and I have a relatively good town read on DDD.

Well, at least Drixx tried more than fjk.

VOTE: fjk

I think I misread you. I just confused myself I guess. You are my biggest TR right now, and as my biggest TR, you are to explain your TR on DDD.

Alright initial thoughts:

Bitmap is leaning scum. She's townreading and scumreading people based on nonsensical reasons and both times they are 'light reads' or 'gut reads' (which apparently warrants a vote). She's reading people based one one post on what on the surface are nothing but null tells.

After closer inspection, Bitmap is probably town. Diego is scum.

I would like to thank DDD for shifting my focus on fjk and being able to see this.

@fjk:

So what changed here?

I explained above. I don't see why a scum would out arbitrary TR's and SR's, as it makes the job harder for the player in the long run. When I applied logic, I realised you were most likely town, so I just backed off.

Bitmap is leaning scum. She's townreading and scumreading people based on nonsensical reasons and both times they are 'light reads' or 'gut reads' (which apparently warrants a vote). She's reading people based one one post on what on the surface are nothing but null tells.

His next 3 posts are trying to get people to reveal likely as underdeveloped reads, being this was the second page, as bitmap. Those series of posts don't really make sense to me.

It's okay. I'm pretty sure you're butt buddy fjkldsjh will sheep you hard.

hahaha I haven't even voted anyone.

Why not? What's your opinion on RVS and votes in general? Even after declaring diego rather confidently as scum (for reasons I don't agree with, but I'll get to that latter), you remain voting no one.

I also fail to see why a scum would out arbitrsty TR's this early on, it's narrowing down the lynch pool and with town having 2 ML's, it's not a wise strategy.

What does this mean? What is a TR?

His case on diego is pretty awful, asking questions, whether you deem them 'inane' or not can really be helpful.

How was mine? Was my "No." less appeasy?

Why is he asking Bitmap this? Bitmap can be scum fhpov and again, it's a pretty inane question.

I agree with diego's question... I don't understand how my question was more 'appeasy' then any other answer. Do you not think "Are you scum?" is an inane question?

1. Read above.

2. RVS just seems pointless, it's just players voting other players for an easy laugh. It's a random vote, scum know not to take it seriously. It's content that starts discussion, not random votes.

3. TR = Townread. SR = Scumread.

4. Well that's your opinion I suppose, what's your read on him? I scumread Diego because he looks contrived and is constantly safeguarding himself. He's playing cautious and nervous and I don't like it.

5. It's as inane as asking someone else (who could be scum fhpov) on a whim d1 if they thought their 'no' was appeasy.

Also what is a VCA? This is only my second game on MafiaScum.

[Drixx]

I do a meta read on Drixx later.

That will be a bit of a waste of your time. I'm in my 2nd and 3rd games on site, and I was posting huge walls of text and using hyperactivity in my first game when I replaced into a scum slot. I'm intentionally avoiding doing that as a general rule, and my posts are therefore more succinct, and sometimes truncated for that reason.

It seems interesting how much you seem to be attempting to run/guide the game.

There is more to meta than finding post lengths and activity level. What I find interesting is your annoyance of Bitmap's playstlyle when you also try to run/guide the game.

I don't feel like I'm overly dominating the game or trying to push it in any particular direction. I do have a severe dislike for lurking. I suppose I probably get pretty pushy when it comes to that. If you elaborate, it would be helpful to me to be more aware of what I'm doing. It's fairly easy to do things without intending to.

[Pramitz]

4. Well that's your opinion I suppose, what's your read on him? I scumread Diego because he looks contrived and is constantly safeguarding himself. He's playing cautious and nervous and I don't like it.

I have a solid null read on him. You're one to talk about playing cautious... why aren't you voting your only scumread?

[Diego1487]

4. Well that's your opinion I suppose, what's your read on him? I scumread Diego because he looks contrived and is constantly safeguarding himself. He's playing cautious and nervous and I don't like it.

5. It's as inane as asking someone else (who could be scum fhpov) on a whim d1 if they thought their 'no' was appeasy.

Also what is a VCA? This is only my second game on MafiaScum.

Well clearly my intent wasn't clear to you. I wasn't asking bitmap for confirmation or safeguarding or anything else you want to call it. I was calling bitmap out for his BS. I don't care what answer he gives, if he ever gives one, "nope" is no worse or better than "no" to that answer. However your need to harp on this is scummy when I have given answers to your claims.

Vote count analysis. The theory that one can find scum based on voting history and patterns.

[Diego1487]

@Drixx
57 you tell us not to listen to bitmap'a lesson and then proceed to give a lesson of your own.

92 you tell us specifically not to meta you for reasons that only cover half of the reasons to meta.

[Drixx]

Any tricks in that bag of yours besides throwing out random "pasta" and seeing where it sticks, Diego?

[Diego1487]

You mean scum hunting as opposed to posting wall posts on how your theory is so vastly different than this site's generally accepted theory? No, I think I'll stick to scum hunting

[Drixx]

What constitutes a "wall" post? I don't believe I even have the longest post in the game, nor are my posts consistently long. From the newbie games so far (of which I've completed one and am playing in two others), this site doesn't appear to actually have 'generally accepted theory'. If you think I can't talk theory a bit and scumhunt at the same time, you're sadly mistaken.

I'm sorry you didn't like post #57.

I don't particularly believe that evaluating someone's play on a meta level is necessarily useful. You seem to think it is, and that I don't understand. I came to this site specifically to learn from folks here and to improve my own play. I'm interested in what you find useful about evaluating someone's meta-play, especially what I'm not accounting for. If it's game-sensitive, feel free to wait until after game.

[Pramitz]

you just generally have long, boring, posts

[Drixx]

I'm still learning my way Pramitz. It probably doesn't help that I'm an academic in a field that most people find very boring. I'll check out your ISO and try to pick up some ways to make my posts less boring. The main points of this game are to have fun and to match wits with people. Neither are much fun for everyone else if I'm a bore.

[DeasVail]

Vote Count 1.05

fjkldsjh (3)- Debonair Danny DiPietro, Pramitz, Bitmap
Bitmap (1)- Drixx

Not voting: zombiekitty, fjkldsjh, ika, Diego1487, Kaleidoscope, Debonair Danny DiPietro

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

4th February, 11pm AEDT. This is in (expired on 2015-02-04 08:00:00)

[Diego1487]

I don't believe I even have the longest post in the game, nor are my posts consistently long.

I apologize, you are correct. Your post are not wall posts now that I look back at them, but they sure do feel like wall posts once I've finished reading them.

I don't particularly believe that evaluating someone's play on a meta level is necessarily useful. You seem to think it is, and that I don't understand.

Question: Do you believe that playing with the same people multiple times improve your ability to read them? If so, you agree with the premise of meta. The site is large, and playing games with the same people is unrealistic. However, reviewing previous games does give the ability to "manufacture" the playing experience with that player.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well what sort of nonsense?

Well I'm not just going to give them away; what if I need to use them this game?

As for ika, I read him. He seems more likely to be town than scum at this point, so I would say yes.

And that is a far more definitive answer than I expect.

I explained above. I don't see why a scum would out arbitrary TR's and SR's, as it makes the job harder for the player in the long run. When I applied logic, I realised you were most likely town, so I just backed off.

Scum have to pretend to have town and scum reads because if they didn't we'd just sit back and lynch the guys without scum and town reads; having reads is not a towntell. That being said Bitmap is reading town to me just not for "having reads".

You mean scum hunting as opposed to posting wall posts on how your theory is so vastly different than this site's generally accepted theory? No, I think I'll stick to scum hunting

This right here is a knockout punch; beautiful.

[Drixx]

I'm a little confused by the atmosphere of this particular game. It's in the newbie queue, and I understood the point of this queue is to let folks come and learn. I've played essentially all of my forum mafia with a small playgroup on a website and forums meant for something else, where mafia was just a side thing. If I don't clear out the stuff that only applies to that playgroup or that became "accepted theory" in that much smaller group of players and set of games, and if I don't ask questions, how am I meant to learn and adapt to the theory and players here?

I do know that the SE/IC slots are supposed to be in the game to help those of us newer to the game, and yet an SE came after me personally and flung a homophobic slur at me and another player in the process, then later said they were going to enjoy the IC "ripping me a new asshole", and now the IC is enjoying a "knockout punch".

Is the point of the games in this queue to beat up on new people and mock them and attack them if they don't automatically understand everything the way it has been established here over what looks to be the course of a decade+ and thousands of games? That seems sort of quite opposite the point of the newbie games, at the very least.

And before someone makes some claim about "constructive criticism" or some such, it's only constructive when you criticize someone's play (and not when you attack them personally or publicly relish in "knockout punches" and "ripping of new assholes"),

and also

give them feedback to correct and improve said play. For people who are supposedly volunteering their experience and time to "help" me and other new people learn and get better, I see an awful lot of "it's really fun to abuse and knock around the n00bs" attitude here. What's up with that?

[ika]

-snip-

this is a game of mafia, players are not meant to be "nice". That being said the 2 thing you have brought up (rip you a new one" and "knockout punch" are really not all that offensive (at least IMO) its common for players to use offensive terms to try to rile or incite a player provoking a reaction

IMO they have yet to really even start to insult you on a personal level (i know where that line gets corssed tbh and the mod knows full well as well). If you think they are PM the mod of the game and let him know.

I personally know bitmap and will state that a lot of his attack right now are just gamestyle play and not a reflection of how he really is. Its common for players to be more aggressive and bitchy to put it to each other. The main thing is that what you say in the game stays in the game.

You dont even /have/ to adapt to whats accepted and whats not (really the only big one that people have that i know of is don't fake cop guilties) If you want to talk about whats "accepted" and whats not take it to the mafia discussion threads and ask there. A newbie game is more or less here to introduce people to the game and get them the ropes of mafia and some of the site meta. A single newbie game isn't really going to get you everything you need to know Its a good baseline starter but only after you play some games will you start to understand.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm a little confused by the atmosphere of this particular game. It's in the newbie queue, and I understood the point of this queue is to let folks come and learn. I've played essentially all of my forum mafia with a small playgroup on a website and forums meant for something else, where mafia was just a side thing. If I don't clear out the stuff that only applies to that playgroup or that became "accepted theory" in that much smaller group of players and set of games, and if I don't ask questions, how am I meant to learn and adapt to the theory and players here?

I do know that the SE/IC slots are supposed to be in the game to help those of us newer to the game, and yet an SE came after me personally and flung a homophobic slur at me and another player in the process, then later said they were going to enjoy the IC "ripping me a new asshole", and now the IC is enjoying a "knockout punch".

Sure, this is a newbie game where teaching among the goals. It's also a

game

so it's both intended to be fun and is more the place for "learn by doing" than scholarly longform discussion. If that's your interest then might I recommend the wiki or the mafia discussion down below because while things will get discussed in game the more pressing matter is finding scum.

Bitmap's comments were largely inappropriate but...
A) SE's are not a teaching role it's just a designation for a non-newbie player
B) was cited by the mod for his behavior
C) unfortunately, it's going to happen if you keep playing here (it's a game of arguments, sometimes those arguments turn heated and personal, sometimes people are just dicks) so it's best to learn to get over it.

As for my comment, I'm not going to apologize for it. Would you really feel that much better if I said, "Diego, that was a trenchant and appropriate criticism of Drixx's play"; it's a colloquial expression.

So you're faced with a reality that isn't the one you envisioned:
A) You can adapt
B) You can replace out and find a new game that's possibly nicer (possible, I've seen more pleasant games, I've seen much worse) and possibly more to your platonic ideal (unlikely)
C) You can replace out and have the time of your life in the mafia discussion enjoying long form treatises about mafia

[Drixx]

I choose A. I appreciate the responses. I threw that post up during my lunch break mostly out of frustration (obviously). It would be nice to see the game actually motor back to life a bit more and continue on.

By the way, I did some looking for "Amished Tell" and that was thwarted by the existence of a television show about the Amish mafia, although there is a wiki page on this site about/by a player from some years ago named "Amished" who seemed to have a bit of a tough start. I know you said you wouldn't tell me what that is, and perhaps that's an inside joke or something of the sort, or perhaps it's simply pragmatic. Maybe after the game? I'm curious and looking for answers hasn't yielded much that leads to a conclusion.

As far as the game goes in general, I don't want to leave the wrong impression, especially since I don't plan to stop playing and so I'll likely see you folks again in other games. I've been around the internet since before Mosaic and I've seen a great deal more nastiness and ugly crap elsewhere. Mafia is a game that revolves around conflicts, and conflict produces emotion and sometimes things get heated. I get that. I will continue to try and conduct myself with composure and hope my post from frustration isn't a huge problem.

[Pramitz]

I'm still learning my way Pramitz. It probably doesn't help that I'm an academic in a field that most people find very boring. I'll check out your ISO and try to pick up some ways to make my posts less boring. The main points of this game are to have fun and to match wits with people. Neither are much fun for everyone else if I'm a bore.

Don't worry about it. People are allowed to have their own playstyles, and I don't think mine is exactly one you should be idolizing.

Hoping for some more people to post and/or vote.

[Diego1487]

Diego's Reads:

DDD/Zombie Kittie/Bitmap: Town reads. Good posts with sound logic.

Pramitz: Null for now. Going to give more time to post since little activity due to personal issues.

Letters: Scummy. Jumped on Bitmap, and then off extremely quick with no vote. Hasn't responded to any of my responses about me safeguarding. Seems to be avoiding topic?

ika: Bored veteran player? Few posts, and almost zero helpful posts.

Drixx: Leaning scum. Very few helpful town posts. Seems to want to drift conversation away from scum hunting, leading to town apathy. Will give benefit of doubt that he's working on adjusting playstyle.

Kaleidoscope: Inactive player that when does post, is not town helpful. Scum read.

[Diego1487]

VOTE: Kaleidoscope

[fjkldsjh]

Diego's Reads:

DDD/Zombie Kittie/Bitmap: Town reads. Good posts with sound logic.

Pramitz: Null for now. Going to give more time to post since little activity due to personal issues.

Letters: Scummy. Jumped on Bitmap, and then off extremely quick with no vote. Hasn't responded to any of my responses about me safeguarding. Seems to be avoiding topic?

ika: Bored veteran player? Few posts, and almost zero helpful posts.

Drixx: Leaning scum. Very few helpful town posts. Seems to want to drift conversation away from scum hunting, leading to town apathy. Will give benefit of doubt that he's working on adjusting playstyle.

Kaleidoscope: Inactive player that when does post, is not town helpful. Scum read.

So you null read Pramitz and ika for lack of contribution but fos and vote Kaleidoscope for lack of contribution?