Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[Flames682]

Votecount 1.17

VictorDeAngelo - 5 (Toon Fighter, Boonskiies, copper223, acryon, RadiantCowbells)

copper223 - 4 (VictorDeAngelo, Elbirn, MonkeyMan576, Formerfish)

MonkeyMan576 - 2 (eektor, Cheetory6)

Not Voting - 2 (Futan, SiX)

With

13

alive, it's

7

to lynch.

Day One's deadline is Monday, February 2, @ 12:11 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2015-02-02 12:11:00).

[Flames682]

Searching for replacement for SiX.

[Boonskiies]

Produce.

Prodge.

[Cheetory6]

VLA.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm going to go on the record as saying Cheetory is my #2 for being scum.

I hate his interactions with Victor, like hate hate hate them, I hate his vote.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like, he's got piles of perfunctory posts, some of the recent ones being 357, 359, 367 (followed by 100 posts absence), 517, 525, 526.

Even his content points like 365 seem really off, and you can really see him having a hidden agenda.

Usually I see early replacements as usually townsided (maf don't usually feel bad about lurking the game away) but not this time.

Like look at

Victor's Case on Copper
i) I think this point is far too subjective for me to feel any kind of inclination to want to lynch Copper. I find it much easier to believe he just messed up, which rings as pretty nulltell to me. Don't think there's anything more to say here other than that we just disagree on the interpretation of the entire situation.
ii) On the gambit point, I could kind of see what Copper is trying to say, so I'm not sure I agree that this is deflection on his end. Without absorbing your clarification that he was apparently just casually trying to buddy the IC and thus because it wasn't a largely premeditated decision, it wouldn't be considered a 'gambit' becomes a very semantic argument over whether buddying the IC in the first 3-4 pages is a gambit or not. I don't see him not understanding such a small detail in your argument as being inherently scummy.
iii) I can kind of see this point, but do you think town doesn't sometimes make shitty tunnelly cases on people that they're convinced are scum?
iv) Weird/unnatural posting habits is a shoddy scumtell IMO.

Copper's Case on Victor
i) Fuck you Copper this isn't a concise point. Your definition of buddying feels like it's too general. To me, Victor is saying that you're buddying someone who everyone knows is town because they're going to be someone who town will be most likely to sheep and buddying can also yield reactionary townreads if it isn't thrown out in the open.
ii) Do you think town can't be abrasive or ridiculous while tunneling? Do you not also think you're guilty of some of the things you're describing here?
iii) Fuck you Copper this isn't a concise point. This feels like a rehash of 168. If there's something in here that hasn't been addressed, say words at me.
iv) Most convincing argument I've seen from either side of these two arguments. Tell me what you make of point acryon brought up regarding this.

Huge wall of text and it's all totally meaningless because he doesn't change his vote or try to convince anyone of anything or change any of his own opinions. He doesn't even hard support Copper who he's leaning on supporting; he sort of is like oh Victor kind of has a convincing argument of you, but tell me this 1 thing and I'll completely forget about you.

The other big scumtell is that even on the victor half, it's all about what Cooper says and does. He really sort of ignores the topic of Victor and just talks a lot about Cooper.

Which suggests a Victor/Cheeto scumteam with Copper as town caught in the crossfire.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also, he's not in any games besides this one but that V/LA seems extremely tactical. Park a vote on someone who seems scummy enough to sit on then V/LA the final days away so you don't have to be responsible for a lynch.

[Flames682]

A reminder: if you want to get my attention then use bold. I almost missed the replacement request and V/LA.

[copper223]

@Radiant
I agree about the tactical part if he does not change his vote before the deadline.

[RadiantCowbells]

HELLO MOD

[Flames682]

[VictorDeAngelo]

So RC finds more bad reasons to call players scum, and then Copper manages to find something amongst the badposting to agree with.

It is bad form to use vla's as reasons to scumread someone and without any information about why he's had to go vla it is wrong to simply say someone is tactically vla.

[Toon Fighter]

Like, he's got piles of perfunctory posts, some of the recent ones being 357, 359, 367 (followed by 100 posts absence), 517, 525, 526.

Even his content points like 365 seem really off, and you can really see him having a hidden agenda.

Usually I see early replacements as usually townsided (maf don't usually feel bad about lurking the game away) but not this time.

Like look at

Victor's Case on Copper
i) I think this point is far too subjective for me to feel any kind of inclination to want to lynch Copper. I find it much easier to believe he just messed up, which rings as pretty nulltell to me. Don't think there's anything more to say here other than that we just disagree on the interpretation of the entire situation.
ii) On the gambit point, I could kind of see what Copper is trying to say, so I'm not sure I agree that this is deflection on his end. Without absorbing your clarification that he was apparently just casually trying to buddy the IC and thus because it wasn't a largely premeditated decision, it wouldn't be considered a 'gambit' becomes a very semantic argument over whether buddying the IC in the first 3-4 pages is a gambit or not. I don't see him not understanding such a small detail in your argument as being inherently scummy.
iii) I can kind of see this point, but do you think town doesn't sometimes make shitty tunnelly cases on people that they're convinced are scum?
iv) Weird/unnatural posting habits is a shoddy scumtell IMO.

Copper's Case on Victor
i) Fuck you Copper this isn't a concise point. Your definition of buddying feels like it's too general. To me, Victor is saying that you're buddying someone who everyone knows is town because they're going to be someone who town will be most likely to sheep and buddying can also yield reactionary townreads if it isn't thrown out in the open.
ii) Do you think town can't be abrasive or ridiculous while tunneling? Do you not also think you're guilty of some of the things you're describing here?
iii) Fuck you Copper this isn't a concise point. This feels like a rehash of 168. If there's something in here that hasn't been addressed, say words at me.
iv) Most convincing argument I've seen from either side of these two arguments. Tell me what you make of point acryon brought up regarding this.

Huge wall of text and it's all totally meaningless because he doesn't change his vote or try to convince anyone of anything or change any of his own opinions. He doesn't even hard support Copper who he's leaning on supporting; he sort of is like oh Victor kind of has a convincing argument of you, but tell me this 1 thing and I'll completely forget about you.

The other big scumtell is that even on the victor half, it's all about what Cooper says and does. He really sort of ignores the topic of Victor and just talks a lot about Cooper.

Which suggests a Victor/Cheeto scumteam with Copper as town caught in the crossfire.

Hmm I actually think it's more likely both Victor and Copper are town and Cheeto (than Vic/Cheeto scum team) is just taking advantage of the interaction. Not really much basis for it, but if I were scum, I would work a town/town cross accusation like that.

Of course, this doesn't mean Cheeto is scum. In fact, I believe in Victor scum more than Cheeto scum, I'm just saying that we should look for cheeto if Vic doesn't pan out.

I hope that I made myself clear, since the though process is muddy even in my head

[Toon Fighter]

Also I don't think V/LA's should be analyzed like that. Sometimes a V/LA is just that

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hmm I actually think it's more likely both Victor and Copper are town and Cheeto (than Vic/Cheeto scum team) is just taking advantage of the interaction. Not really much basis for it, but if I were scum, I would work a town/town cross accusation like that.

Of course, this doesn't mean Cheeto is scum. In fact, I believe in Victor scum more than Cheeto scum, I'm just saying that we should look for cheeto if Vic doesn't pan out.

This isn't clear at all. AFICT you said you thought that Cheety was liklier scum than me and Copper and then said I was liklier scum than Cheety. Can you me give me a clear read on the three of us please, with order of towniest to scummiest?

[Boonskiies]

Hmm I actually think it's more likely both Victor and Copper are town and Cheeto (than Vic/Cheeto scum team) is just taking advantage of the interaction. Not really much basis for it, but if I were scum, I would work a town/town cross accusation like that.

Of course, this doesn't mean Cheeto is scum. In fact, I believe in Victor scum more than Cheeto scum, I'm just saying that we should look for cheeto if Vic doesn't pan out.

This isn't clear at all. AFICT you said you thought that Cheety was liklier scum than me and Copper and then said I was liklier scum than Cheety. Can you me give me a clear read on the three of us please, with order of towniest to scummiest?

I second this; it isn't clear AT ALL.

[Boonskiies]

You think it's more likely for Victor to be town, and for Cheeto to be scum, but you believe Victor is more scum than Cheeto scum. WTF. Haha.

[Toon Fighter]

I said:

VIctor more likely to be scum (individually) - this is the most important part, I still believe there is a decent chance Vic's scum.
The analysis continues as such:
(
IF victor == Town:
THEN Cheety's probability of scum ++ (INCREASES)
BUT NOT Copper's probability of scum ++

ELIF Victor == Scum:
THEN Copper's probability of scum ++ (INCREASES)
BUT NOT Cheety's probability of scum ++)

(
AND IF Cheety == Scum:
THEN Victor and/or Copper's probability of scum -- [is reduced])

Hopefully is clearer for everyone

[MonkeyMan576]

At this point in the day is it too much to ask for people to be on one of the leading wagons?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I said:

VIctor more likely to be scum (individually) - this is the most important part, I still believe there is a decent chance Vic's scum.
The analysis continues as such:
(
IF victor == Town:
THEN Cheety's probability of scum ++ (INCREASES)
BUT NOT Copper's probability of scum ++

ELIF Victor == Scum:
THEN Copper's probability of scum ++ (INCREASES)
BUT NOT Cheety's probability of scum ++)

(
AND IF Cheety == Scum:
THEN Victor and/or Copper's probability of scum -- [is reduced])

Hopefully is clearer for everyone

I spent the last several days looking through code, and I was hoping for a day off. Can we get clear English please.

[copper223]

@Toon
Why would you think it's more likely I am scum if Victor flips scum and more town if he flips town?

[Toon Fighter]

The town part is explained with the fact that your discussion (if vic is town) looks town on town, with scum taking advantage of it. However, if Vic is scum, I can see you two trying to bus each other for the town cred more likely than one of you actually scum hunting the other.

[eektor]

So Toon agrees with acryon that Victor and copper are scum bussing each other. Monkey wants the other people not on the two leading wagons to join one. This is precisely why I don't want to join either of the two. I'd much rather lynch one of these two people today.

[copper223]

@Eektor
Can you explain your thought process more?

[VictorDeAngelo]

So Toon agrees with acryon that Victor and copper are scum bussing each other. Monkey wants the other people not on the two leading wagons to join one. This is precisely why I don't want to join either of the two. I'd much rather lynch one of these two people today.

With the deadline now a few days away, I don't think Monkey wanting to get people committing to one of the leading wagons is that unusual.

I agree on Toon though. I find notable that both Acryon and Toon are basically saying that me and Copper are either town on town or scum or scum, but both want to flip me first. These need to be the first people looked at after a Copper scumflip.