Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Honey bee]

Vote count 2.05

acryon (3):

prawneater, West9, Aristophanes

Metalcyanide (2):

Lyserg-Zeroz, farside22

West9 (1):

Metalcyanide

Aristophanes (1):

acryon

Ginko (1):

~Jordan`

Not voting: Ginko, VysePresident
With 10 alive It takes 6 to lynch. Day ends in: (expired on 2015-02-08 08:07:00)

[farside22]

Lyse: he wasn't voting for lal. He focused on those not voting lal without taking his own thoughts into consideration. It's not scum hunting basically.
Also his main focus is wolf hunting and not scum hunting for both groups when you read who he thinks is scum.

[prawneater]

Hey Jordan. What do you think of the current wagons? Acryon's is the best right?

[~Jordan`]

Metal's is the best as far as I've read.
But acryon's is cool too!

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Quiet day is quiet.
I thought I'd be here today but turns out I have irl stuff to distract me, in the meantime, homework for people C:

@Prawn: Answer follow up question about preference of Acryon over Metal pls (because I feel everything you told me about Acryon kinda applies to Metal too). Curious, is there offsite meta of you? I might want to take a look later (and all your onsite games are ongoing).


@Ari:

Can't remember what pinged originally. Not liking his interactions though. I feel they're more than the "just metal being metal" we've seen in past games.

Be more specific please.

I didn't post the vote solely to test Metal. Maybe I should have waited for him to respond before I came in with my follow-up, but I'm rather happy with the results and have no regrets about it. I wantedgeneral reactions to the vote more than his reaction to being voted.

I mean, hindsight's 20/20 I guess =/. Curious, what did you make of people's reactions other than Lal's?

I hadn't realized I hadn't really said anything to/about West in that post. I'm gonna have to do a readback and see where I stand on him, because I've already had drastic shifts in that a few times.
From what I can see he's resumed his usual town-leadery, asks a lot of questions role, which I usually like. Without looking back though, that's all I've got on him.

What happened to your suspicion that West could be on a scumteam with Lal?

Secondly, how can you possibly be so sure you've got scum pegged down right now? And if I'm not scum, or if the voting swings more towards West, would you stick to your guns on voting me since I'm so obviously scum or switch to West, since he's now also obviously scum in your mind?

@Acryon: Can you answer the last part of this (about sticking with your vote or not). I want to yell at Ari about it but I think you didn't answer to that in your response to him.

[Honey bee]

*Prodding West9*

[West9]

Hey, I'm here, will read up and make a big ol post later today

[acryon]

@Acryon: Can you answer the last part of this (about sticking with your vote or not). I want to yell at Ari about it but I think you didn't answer to that in your response to him.

Just popping in for a second, but I sort of answered this in 599, but not directly. In short, I would continue to push Ari because he is more likely to flip scum than West is to flip wolf. The town's tide won't affect that.

[Aristophanes]

My apologies, but I got called into work for another long-ass shift tomorrow. I will still make a post, just expect it to be much later in the evening and to be mostly sleepy.

Damned snowstorms...

[West9]

Lys, remember how you were talking about how you didn't like prawn's vote on acyron? Ari's vote is kinda having the same effect on me.

Okay, so here's my 2 cents worth. Whether town or scum, that baited a reaction and got the desired result. If I were town, of course I would expect people to jump on me! That's kinda the point of a REACTION test! If I were scum, what would be the point? I'd be baiting either the two wolfs, or someone from the town's populace into reacting. If I got a town bite, I'd probably end up under fire for leading a mislynch if it went through as it did, and I'd likely be dead that phase otherwise. If I somehow got the scum reaction from one of the two Warewolves, sure, it'd look good, but it's be an unnecessary risk as scum, putting me into the limelight for days to come. I just don't see what you dislike about it so much.

The "why would I do this if I was scum" scenario you outline here is 100% exactly what happened.

@West you've brought up you have a problem with this more than anyone else. Why? I making a read based off of the votes how is this "fake and dishonest". I guess you can call it lazy but at the same time you've gotten real upset about it.

It's Day 2 and there are two scumteams. That you're relying solely on the votes for your reads and not at all on interactions is sketchy when you consider those two things.
On the subject, the whole "you didn't vote Lal thing" is pretty dumb, and mischaracterizes my attempts not to put Lal at L-1 at inappropriate times with an attempt to defend her. This interpretation of my actions is completely wrong.

I cannot even believe there is a wagon on me right now. It's actually crazy.

This doesn't really surprise me coming from someone who thinks that mistakes aren't scummy, that laziness isn't scummy, that not defending your reads isn't scummy, that looking for scumslips is scummy, that questioning things that don't make sense is scummy, and that defending your reads is scummy.

Hmm... @West: You realise when Metal brought you as a scum read this day he was putting you on a trio of people who didn't vote Lal, right? (as, "these people are my wolf suspects" kind of thing). Why did you question purely your own placement there rather than the whole?

I have an almost narcissistic approach to these things, and I always have. It's easier for me to parse through dense arguments and posts when they are about me, so I often make them about me.

West has been the only person harping on the fact I put him in my possible wolf list based off the D1 votes. I feel like I didn't make this a secret that he was there only because of it. He has been over reacting to it and I feel like he is trying to just get his name off any scum list.

lol ok.
Hey, remember last D2 game? With PandoranPsycho? How I "overreacted" to that? That wasn't an isolated incident. It wasn't just because he was fake-claiming a cop read on me. That's how I respond to people to view me as scum for reasons that I don't understand and that they can't back up.
I can understand acryon not really getting that part of my meta. But you don't really have that excuse.

Then finally my recent West vote is because he has been the only one to care that I put a weak wolf read on him. And he wouldn't drop it even though I had Ari as my vote.

I don't even know why you'd think I'd care about that.

[prawneater]

@Prawn: Metal was also voting Ari when you made your vote, moreover, he already had three votes on him while Acryon had none (think one of the problems you had D1 was that your Metal vote didn't develop into a sizeable wagon, why not take the chance then?), why did you choose Acryon over Metal? Also, I don't like that your confTown-Ari idea kinda completely dismisses all: bussing, the idea that at least one of those votes on Ari wasn't meant to last, that the remaining non-Ari voters aren't scum with him (like, why couldn't the YYR slot or I be Ari's scumbuddies, considering we both stayed away from the Ari wagon?).

I think you're an obvious town-read.

I find it very hard to come up with a 3-man scum team with Ari on it.

I wanted to put some heat on Acryon.

I'm of course totally fine with a Metal lynch.

No offsite-meta sorry.

[VysePresident]

Prod-dodging because I accidentally lied.

Sorry guys. I have the gist of what I want to say down, but it's ridiculously late, and everything's in note form. >_<

[acryon]

Things

No one is disputing that metal has been switching his reads around in a somewhat confusing manner, but you need to show why that's scum. Erratic voting patterns doesn't make scum. Doing things with a scum-motivation makes scum. How is what he is doing scum-motivated?

Here's the thing. This game almost never boils down to "X, Y, and Z are things scum do. This person is doing X, therefore they are scum." If that were how scum were caught, this game would be a whoooole lot easier. But it's just not how things work. You need to catch scum by looking at how their play benefits a scum agenda, how they associate with confirmed players, how their play appears fabricated, etc. But trying to peg scum by applying such broad models to them just doesn't work.

You know better than this farside.

[farside22]

Have you done that with ari?

[farside22]

But sure lets talk about scum benifit a with metal.
Metal still looks like he's scum hunting but only I have pointed out that it's within one group.
Scum metal doesn't have to bus his scum buddies by sticking within one group.

Now tell me how that makes metal town since you keep defending him

[Metalcyanide]

West:

lol ok.
Hey, remember last D2 game? With PandoranPsycho? How I "overreacted" to that? That wasn't an isolated incident. It wasn't just because he was fake-claiming a cop read on me. That's how I respond to people to view me as scum for reasons that I don't understand and that they can't back up.
I can understand acryon not really getting that part of my meta. But you don't really have that excuse.

No I don't remeber this I was the first lynch and didn't keep up with the game afterwards.

[West9]

Whoops, I forgot that there was another game I didn't play. I meant Kai/Young's game. When gimme bombed you.

[Metalcyanide]

Whoops, I forgot that there was another game I didn't play. I meant Kai/Young's game. When gimme bombed you.

I'm going to have to go look back at it. But honestly it's not ringing a bell.

[West9]

I also want to know why you'd think I'd care about me not being your "main target"

[West9]

It's Day 2 and there are two scumteams. That you're relying solely on the votes for your reads and not at all on interactions is sketchy when you consider those two things.
On the subject, the whole "you didn't vote Lal thing" is pretty dumb, and mischaracterizes my attempts not to put Lal at L-1 at inappropriate times with an attempt to defend her. This interpretation of my actions is completely wrong.

A response to this would be cool too.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Hi, I'm rambling on a larger post, but while I try to make sense of my own words:
@West:
I can see the "defending" one more in a "justifying" sense, since reads don't always have strong reasoning behind them one would want to defend, but they should always be at least justified even if by "lolgut", but:

This doesn't really surprise me coming from someone who thinks that mistakes aren't scummy, that laziness isn't scummy

How the hell is making mistakes scummy? (laziness isn't really either, but eh, that's kinda dependant on the player).

[farside22]

Hi, I'm rambling on a larger post, but while I try to make sense of my own words:
@West:
I can see the "defending" one more in a "justifying" sense, since reads don't always have strong reasoning behind them one would want to defend, but they should always be at least justified even if by "lolgut", but:

This doesn't really surprise me coming from someone who thinks that mistakes aren't scummy, that laziness isn't scummy

How the hell is making mistakes scummy? (laziness isn't really either, but eh, that's kinda dependant on the player).

Is it normal for you to play devil's advocate with everyone?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

^Don't really feel like that's what I'm doing here, but yeah, kinda (I need to be in a really assertive mood to not doubt myself out loud even a little). I don't like that line out of West because it feels like overdoing his attack on Acryon (mistakes are things everyone makes).

[West9]

"isn't" probably should be "can't be" on a lot of the things I said there.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Acryon: Oh. K then. That's a lot of confidence P=. Can't really yell that much at Ari if the response isn't what I expected ^ ^'

I thought you'd call it dumb because there's little point to a one-man wagon if you can use your vote to lynch your secondary suspect (even more so now that

your confidence on scumWest had risen considerably after your exchange with him) or because it can be used to avoid a NL or something like that. Then I'd yell at Ari because I wasn't sure about the point of that line of questioning and it worried me when also considering his super lame "Metal, didn't you notice the timer!?" question and because the "If I'm not scum" part of it makes no sense (is there any other answer than "How the hell would I know? And if I did of course I wouldn't vote you" to that 0.0?).

   Tbh when I first asked you about your case on Ari and with how confident you seemed, I thought I'd get some new content (and I did) but I also thought it'd be composited and strengthened with you agreeing with and pointing to other people's D1 points (there's nothing inherently wrong with that not being the case, but I would've understood your confidence more if it was). Looking back on this, I prolly shouldn't have questioned you on that so early and I should've given you more breathing room instead to see how you'd organically push for the Ari lynch. But whatever.

@farside: About Metal focusing on werewolves: Idk, he went for Ari first and only changed to West after that exchange. If you mean because the trio of suspects for wolf, then: We caught one wolf, I'd think it's natural to have specific wolf suspects based off the possibilities of associative tells. Also, I noted D1 that Acryon/Orc interactions seemed too inocuous, so I can see where Metal would get that "team" read from and him noticing the tones with which players interact is partly why I could sorta see Ginko's comment on Metal having "deeper" thoughts on players than what I/him remember/s from scumMetal when he said that

I'm honestly conflicted on Metal lynch, partly because gut, partly because of a few stuff I liked I already mentioned. I also like that he at least took the time to comment on the votes of the wagon he himself was on. Stuff I don't like either I've already commented or other people have said them and I didn't raise counterpoints; Metal lynch is fine, but not my favorite.

I can't make myself feel better about the stuff I haven't liked about Acryon by chalking them up to playstyle differences (and my gut likes the vote better there than in Metal), the feeling of insincerity I got off him doesn't go away. VOTE: Acryon. Also, stuff that I feel the strongest about regarding Metal have to do with his interactions with Acryon (or lack thereof), so there's that.

I'm wary of just letting West correct himself like that, but I guess that way it is consistent with his previous line of questioning to Acryon of "Or by being scum". I'm going back and forth with West and the possibiliy of getting the wolf is tempting. To the points farside brought up before, there are counters based off Lal's meta and the idea that West is not dumb enough to not know when to bus; I feel slightly off about West pushing farside's points to Acryon when some of them had counters with Lal's meta of which West should be aware of (Lal relying on the points made by a scummate and defending them), only "slightly" off because Acryon had no reason to know about Lal's meta and he really was just ignoring farside's points. Thou the "solid townread" Lal gave to West seems overboard, I remember her being a bit more wishywashy when giving townpoints to scummates on the Madoka game. @Ari: But you can help me out here, since I actually didn't play that game.