Open 588 Pick Your Poison -- Game Over

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.05

SIR CYANIDE - 5 - Lalendra, VictorDeAngelo, deathfisaro, croboss, acryon
croboss - 2 - SIR CYANIDE, Count Dooku
House - 2 - Riabi, pisskop
Count Dooku - 1 - House
deathfisaro - 1 - Drezi
RachMarie - 1 - NJAC

Not Voting: RachMarie

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-02-24 12:47:44)

V/LA: acryon, through Friday, February 6; deathfisaro through Tuesday, February 10

[SIR CYANIDE]

First, let's drop all the setup specualtion talk. Thank you.

Agreed, it's useless at this point. It can only really aid scum in finding who is a PR by the way people approach the topic.

No it doesn't. Ask yourself, do you have any idea who the PRs/IC are? You don't, because WIFOM fucks up every reason you may have for it + lurkers who haven't given any input about anything are null reads and they may be power roles as well. I remember analyzing newbie games about scum and doc finding PRs in N1 and the amount of times they succeeded was exactly the amount of times you'd expect them to if their votes were cast completely random. I'm talking exactly the amount, down to the decimal point. Sample size was 120 games iirc, which is substantial. If you really think any of this discussion has even remotely outed PRs you need a reality check

I am torn on Sir Cyanide. At first, I thought it made some sense from a town-perspective to want to discuss the set-up a bit, but the amount he is harping on it is a little unsettling. Really feels like rolefishing.

There's a name for this type of reasoning but I forgot the 'official' terminology. Fencesitting? I don't remember. Either way, it's when you state absolutely nothing by posting random things that contradict each other. 'I thought it made sense' but it is 'unsettling', make up your mind.

Seems like croboss is particularly disinterested in finding scum, perhaps because he already knows the set-up. Doesn't properly read the thread either and has been very absent. Bandwagons me and then doesn't back up his reasoning either.

unvote

VOTE: croboss

Could you

possibly

talk about the setup any more? And calling croboss out based on that post seems pretty terrible. And below the quality of play that seemed to exist in your never-ending role discussions.

You seem to have misunderstood me. The set-up here refers to who is mafia and who isn't, not about who is PR and who isn't. Croboss seems really disinterested in this game, he did not even read the topic properly, gives no explanation and posts random shit about House in an effort to appear like he is doing something. My 'he seems disinterested perhaps because he knows the set-up' here actually means 'he seems disinterested because he already knows who is mafia and who is town so the thrill of finding mafia is gone for him which is a reason for his disinterest'

For the love of all that is good, can we stop talking about the setup? If scum hasn't figured out who the PRs are already, then they will if people don't shut up.

They won't figure out anything.

VOTE: SIR CYANIDE

[SIR CYANIDE]

Yes, which is ridiculous. I agree that it is silly that I came into the game for real on page 8 and had little to comment on other than a pile of setup discussion. Only scum gains from that. There should be more pushing for reactions, which town wins from.

While I have you here, do you honestly think 177 comes from scum?

I know this question is probably not directed at me, but I have rarely seen more obvscum. Lets take a look:

(you guys post wayyy too much i can hardly catch up)

Disinterested. Doesn't feel like reading all of the text and is justifying it here. You can easily catch up, it's just a matter of reading the words. It's not a difficult concept.

Who actually claimed IC?

Nobody claimed IC, which he doesn't know because he only skimmed through the topic and saw a lot of IC this IC that.

I can't find it where someone actually claimed?

Because he didn't even search, reading any post what-so-ever would tell him that. Because I'm a lazy piece of shit as well in general I know this tactic and it's one I often employ myself.

House: I feel like he knows what he's doing and is smart about it, but he's also seems authoritative and gets angered fairly easily.

A random comment, he was going to 'post his thoughts' and after all those pages this is the only thing he comes up with.

Thats the only person that really stood out to me hopefully I can dig deeper. (haha I guess I'm pretty bad at mafia)

He is not digging deeper, he is once again trying to justify his lack of investment by promising us he will 'dig deeper' (which he probably won't). He finishes it with another justification ('haha im bad at mafia'). Basically this entire post is him apologizing/trying to get away with the fact that he can't be fucked to actually read through the topic and play the god damn game.

Now, there is an

EXTREME

correlation between his behavior and being scum.

[SIR CYANIDE]

Ah yeah lets not forget that he just randomly votes for me without any back-up while there is a wagon on me. Legit?

[Lalendra]

True (and wifom'ish but nearly everything is wifom'ish so whatever), but it is unlikely that the mafia predicted that there would be such an elaborate amount of discussion about the set-up and may have concluded that the value they gain from having an inferior PR (or at least deemed inferior by popular opinion) outweighs the value they lose from being predictable.

My playstyle is pretty WIFOMish in general, so it's probably best to just get used to that. I try to analyze all sides of the situation and frequently end up going in circles.

You're being overly obsessed with IC when there's no reason to. I'm sorry if there's IC in this game that I find IC the most disposable PR out of all 5.

It is quite disposable, which is why scum are likely to have picked one - unless, as I stated earlier, they deliberately didn't pick one just to throw us off.

You're not as smart as you think you are, so do us all a favor and stop acting like a condescending jerk (or I WILL vote you ), this game is meant to be recreational and fun.

I don't think he's that condescending IRL, it's just part of the online persona. I don't find him offensive because it's an act. It's too bad being a dick isn't alignment-indicative or he'd be pinging my scumdar hardcore.

Yes, which is ridiculous. I agree that it is silly that I came into the game for real on page 8 and had little to comment on other than a pile of setup discussion. Only scum gains from that. There should be more pushing for reactions, which town wins from.

While I have you here, do you honestly think 177 comes from scum?

I know this question is probably not directed at me, but I have rarely seen more obvscum. Lets take a look:

(you guys post wayyy too much i can hardly catch up)

Disinterested. Doesn't feel like reading all of the text and is justifying it here. You can easily catch up, it's just a matter of reading the words. It's not a difficult concept.

Who actually claimed IC?

Nobody claimed IC, which he doesn't know because he only skimmed through the topic and saw a lot of IC this IC that.

I can't find it where someone actually claimed?

Because he didn't even search, reading any post what-so-ever would tell him that. Because I'm a lazy piece of shit as well in general I know this tactic and it's one I often employ myself.

House: I feel like he knows what he's doing and is smart about it, but he's also seems authoritative and gets angered fairly easily.

A random comment, he was going to 'post his thoughts' and after all those pages this is the only thing he comes up with.

Thats the only person that really stood out to me hopefully I can dig deeper. (haha I guess I'm pretty bad at mafia)

He is not digging deeper, he is once again trying to justify his lack of investment by promising us he will 'dig deeper' (which he probably won't). He finishes it with another justification ('haha im bad at mafia'). Basically this entire post is him apologizing/trying to get away with the fact that he can't be fucked to actually read through the topic and play the god damn game.

Now, there is an

EXTREME

correlation between his behavior and being scum.

I don't know, bad play =/= scummy play; while I'm not giving him a townread, I also think that his post is less scum play, and more bad/lazy play.

Fixed quote tag. ~~NS

[Lalendra]

I accidentally copied Acryon's post instead of quoting it. Everything between "pinging my scumdar hardcore" and "I don't know, bad play =/= scummy play" should have been a quote. </3

[acryon]

No it doesn't. Ask yourself, do you have any idea who the PRs/IC are? You don't, because WIFOM fucks up every reason you may have for it + lurkers who haven't given any input about anything are null reads and they may be power roles as well. I remember analyzing newbie games about scum and doc finding PRs in N1 and the amount of times they succeeded was exactly the amount of times you'd expect them to if their votes were cast completely random. I'm talking exactly the amount, down to the decimal point. Sample size was 120 games iirc, which is substantial. If you really think any of this discussion has even remotely outed PRs you need a reality check

So you analyzed specifically newbie games where the setup was heavily discussed at the start of the game? What a coincidence that you happened to conduct such an extremely narrow analysis.

There's a name for this type of reasoning but I forgot the 'official' terminology. Fencesitting? I don't remember. Either way, it's when you state absolutely nothing by posting random things that contradict each other. 'I thought it made sense' but it is 'unsettling', make up your mind.

I mean I think my vote showed that I'm not sitting the fence, right?

Seems like croboss is particularly disinterested in finding scum, perhaps because he already knows the set-up. Doesn't properly read the thread either and has been very absent. Bandwagons me and then doesn't back up his reasoning either.

unvote

VOTE: croboss

Could you

possibly

talk about the setup any more? And calling croboss out based on that post seems pretty terrible. And below the quality of play that seemed to exist in your never-ending role discussions.

You seem to have misunderstood me. The set-up here refers to who is mafia and who isn't, not about who is PR and who isn't. Croboss seems really disinterested in this game, he did not even read the topic properly, gives no explanation and posts random shit about House in an effort to appear like he is doing something. My 'he seems disinterested perhaps because he knows the set-up' here actually means 'he seems disinterested because he already knows who is mafia and who is town so the thrill of finding mafia is gone for him which is a reason for his disinterest'

How often does this reasoning actually lead you to scum?

For the love of all that is good, can we stop talking about the setup? If scum hasn't figured out who the PRs are already, then they will if people don't shut up.

They won't figure out anything.

You're either overestimating town, underestimating scum, or both, and all three are bad.

[acryon]

As for 202 I find that town are

far

more likely to miss details like someone claiming than scum. Scum tend to be a lot more careful.

[SIR CYANIDE]

So you analyzed specifically newbie games where the setup was heavily discussed at the start of the game? What a coincidence that you happened to conduct such an extremely narrow analysis.

There were plenty of games where people revealed to have breadcrumbed or slipped up and in the quicktopics plenty of debate was had about things that could potentially be tells. None were relevant.

How often does this reasoning actually lead you to scum?

Quite often.

[SIR CYANIDE]

I mean I think my vote showed that I'm not sitting the fence, right?

Fencesitting is probably the wrong terminology. You're reasoning for voting me is all over the place, you're basically saying 'you're doing [x] which I think is good but idk I think it's bad'. It's a typical scum tactic to justify a vote on someone.

[acryon]

I mean I think my vote showed that I'm not sitting the fence, right?

Fencesitting is probably the wrong terminology. You're reasoning for voting me is all over the place, you're basically saying 'you're doing [x] which I think is good but idk I think it's bad'. It's a typical scum tactic to justify a vote on someone.

That's not quite what I said. I said I could see some town motivation for wanting to discuss the things your discussing (how to play optimally as certain PRs for instance), but that you were taking it to a point beyond that, where I don't see a townie taking it.

How often does this reasoning actually lead you to scum?

Quite often.

I'm not saying this never happens, but in my experience, laziness/disinterest is not alignment indicative, and town are more likely to make mistakes than scum. But I suppose it's experience vs experience at that point.

[SIR CYANIDE]

but that you were taking it to a point beyond that, where I don't see a townie taking it.

Where, specifically?

[acryon]

but that you were taking it to a point beyond that, where I don't see a townie taking it.

Where, specifically?

I would say 114 was where it went too far for me. I don't think that specific scenario is worth pointing out really, and I think it can do more harm than good, but I'm going to intentionally be as vague as I can about that though.

[SIR CYANIDE]

It was just to convince house that there was more to IC than he thought. The actual examples are meaningless.

[NJAC]

Ok.

I like Drezi, Riabi, maybe House and pisskop for town. Undecided about Cyanide but I like how he has generated content and discussion, I think he's leaning town too. And deathfisaro can go to my town pile too.

The scummy people are Victor, Dooku and croboss.

acryon is null (maybe in the townie side of null) and the rest are null as welll.

Despite Dooku voting croboss, I like my vote being put on that wagon:

Vote: croboss

@croboss: it's not that hard to properly catch up, so please post more content and thoughts as soon as you can.


Now, what happened to the "NEVER LIE AS TOWN" almost general consensus? You just don't lie as town (only with few exceptions), so if you're VT at L-1, you don't fakeclaim IC. Period.

To make it clear for everyone: if you're town just don't fakeclaim. Thank you.

Also, @Victor, in my first post when I said "IC" during my RVS vote, it was actually a bad joke because I remember RachMarie as IC (Inexperience Challenged) in newbie games, so I was saying that she being the IC had to be scum (just a random comment to justify a RVS vote). I see now the confusion. So IC will mean Innocent Child in my posts from now on.


@All: I have more opinions and thoughts about what has happened in the game. Some of them are just a bit outdated or don't deserve further discussion because were already argued enough. Anyway if you have any question or something specific you want me to give my opinion about, please let me know.

[croboss]

I find that people in mafia games immediately thinks that someone is scum just because they do something that you don't like, even if you can not properly justify it. For example Sir Cyanide dislikes my lack of content and the fact i've voted for him, he greatly dislikes these 2 things so he thinks that I must be scum. From what i've read he can't really justify it and is just using an OMGUS argument with same random non validated statistics of that when someone doesnt post content they have an extreme correlation to scum.

I also find it funny about when someone plays unorthodox or "bad play" most people immediately think they must be scum. Being scum shouldn't to my belief have no correlation to "bad play"

I must confess that my reason for the vote on Sir Cyanide was to generate discussion, but really, how does failing to understand that nobody claimed IC really make me scum?

UNVOTE: Sir Cyanide

[croboss]

...(you guys post wayyy too much i can hardly catch up) ...

Seriously though you guys do post way too much

[NJAC]

Ok @croboss: Let's say you're not scum, who's scum then? And who do you think is town?

Also, what discussion were you expecting to generate with your vote on SC? Why exactly did you unvote him? Was the discussion you wanted already generated?

[SIR CYANIDE]

I find that people in mafia games immediately thinks that someone is scum just because they do something that you don't like, even if you can not properly justify it. For example Sir Cyanide dislikes my lack of content and the fact i've voted for him, he greatly dislikes these 2 things so he thinks that I must be scum. From what i've read he can't really justify it and is just using an OMGUS argument with same random non validated statistics of that when someone doesnt post content they have an extreme correlation to scum.

I also find it funny about when someone plays unorthodox or "bad play" most people immediately think they must be scum. Being scum shouldn't to my belief have no correlation to "bad play"

I must confess that my reason for the vote on Sir Cyanide was to generate discussion, but really, how does failing to understand that nobody claimed IC really make me scum?

UNVOTE: Sir Cyanide

Alright mate, lots of 'this and that isn't necessarily scummy', so in addition to the questions NJAC asked, what

does

make someone scummy according to you?

[Count Dooku]

While I have you here, do you honestly think 177 comes from scum?

Yes.

you guys post wayyy too much i can hardly catch up

You should be happy when the town makes content (if you are town). The more content we do, the more chance we have to lynch correctly.

scum

Who actually claimed IC? I can't find it where someone actually claimed?

It is obvious that nobody claimed IC. A town player would read through the thread.

scum

haha I guess I'm pretty bad at mafia

See the end of post 185.

scum

VOTE: Sir Cyanide

This is ridiculous. Jump on the biggest wagon, without saying anything 'why'?

scum

I must confess that my reason for the vote on Sir Cyanide was to generate discussion

First of all: why would we believe you? You can just be scum, who tried to jump on the biggest wagon, and after you realised, you try to get away with (a bad) excuse. To make it clear: Neither I am scumreading you nor townreading based on this post. It is

null

.
Second: you want more content? You said that we post way too much... and you wnat more content? I won't buy it. Nice contradiction btw.

scum

So

acryon

. Now it is your turn to tell us, what did you find towny about croboss' posts. I didn't read anything from him that is towny.

[croboss]

I find that people in mafia games immediately thinks that someone is scum just because they do something that you don't like, even if you can not properly justify it. For example Sir Cyanide dislikes my lack of content and the fact i've voted for him, he greatly dislikes these 2 things so he thinks that I must be scum. From what i've read he can't really justify it and is just using an OMGUS argument with same random non validated statistics of that when someone doesnt post content they have an extreme correlation to scum.

I also find it funny about when someone plays unorthodox or "bad play" most people immediately think they must be scum. Being scum shouldn't to my belief have no correlation to "bad play"

I must confess that my reason for the vote on Sir Cyanide was to generate discussion, but really, how does failing to understand that nobody claimed IC really make me scum?

UNVOTE: Sir Cyanide

Alright mate, lots of 'this and that isn't necessarily scummy', so in addition to the questions NJAC asked, what

does

make someone scummy according to you?

Their voting
What their overall gameplan is if they have one.
Meta (could possibly work)
Psychology (this however is frowned upon by many and is called a WIFOM argument)
Behaviour, like how it changes
Contradictions in arguments

[croboss]

Ok @croboss: Let's say you're not scum, who's scum then? And who do you think is town?

Also, what discussion were you expecting to generate with your vote on SC? Why exactly did you unvote him? Was the discussion you wanted already generated?

I don't know, I find myself fairly bad at determining reads.

I was expecting to create enough disccusion so I could create another post, which could then lead me to make a few more.. I unvoted because I have nothing agaisnt him. The discussion I wanted was already generated because of my earlier post where I conclude my theory.

The reason I jumped on the biggest wagon is because it is likely to produce the most discussion if you near someone that one step closer to a lynch then just randomly doing it on someone with no votes.

[croboss]

While I have you here, do you honestly think 177 comes from scum?

Yes.

you guys post wayyy too much i can hardly catch up

You should be happy when the town makes content (if you are town). The more content we do, the more chance we have to lynch correctly.

scum

Who actually claimed IC? I can't find it where someone actually claimed?

It is obvious that nobody claimed IC. A town player would read through the thread.

scum

haha I guess I'm pretty bad at mafia

See the end of post 185.

scum

VOTE: Sir Cyanide

This is ridiculous. Jump on the biggest wagon, without saying anything 'why'?

scum

I must confess that my reason for the vote on Sir Cyanide was to generate discussion

First of all: why would we believe you? You can just be scum, who tried to jump on the biggest wagon, and after you realised, you try to get away with (a bad) excuse. To make it clear: Neither I am scumreading you nor townreading based on this post. It is

null

.
Second: you want more content? You said that we post way too much... and you wnat more content? I won't buy it. Nice contradiction btw.

scum

So

acryon

. Now it is your turn to tell us, what did you find towny about croboss' posts. I didn't read anything from him that is towny.

I could very well be scum, that's up for you guys to decide.

[Drezi]

Agreed, it's useless at this point. It can only really aid scum in finding who is a PR by the way people approach the topic.

For the love of all that is good, can we stop talking about the setup? If scum hasn't figured out who the PRs are already, then they will if people don't shut up.

No it doesn't. Ask yourself, do you have any idea who the PRs/IC are? You don't, because WIFOM fucks up every reason you may have for it + lurkers who haven't given any input about anything are null reads and they may be power roles as well. I remember analyzing newbie games about scum and doc finding PRs in N1 and the amount of times they succeeded was exactly the amount of times you'd expect them to if their votes were cast completely random. I'm talking exactly the amount, down to the decimal point.

They won't figure out anything.

I think you guys are arguing the two extreme ends of the spectrum, and the truth is somewhere inbetween.

I agree that generally people overestimate the reliability of tells and such, so I don't think we need to get overly paranoid over discussing such topics, if it boosts an otherwise low activity or might be useful in some way.

However it's going to a bit far to say that WIFOM renders every clue useless. It might be so as early as D1 in a void, but later with additional context you can still make a read/guess as to how far you believe the person in question went in the wifom circle, which should be at least a bit better than writing it off as completely random.

[croboss]

Agree, WIFOM can work much more than most people think.