Mini #1647: Eine Kleine Nacht-Mord, Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

@UT - So I am supposed to add "and I am town" to every post from now on? If you really want me to I will say "he put me at L-1 and tried to immediately pawn off anyone accidently hammering on them and I am town so that is scummy" each time I talk about it. Heck for that matter why don't I just call you scum because you automatically assumed that anyone who hammered me when you put me at L-1 the first time would be scum. That makes the solid assumption that I am town from your point.

Yes. INTENTIONALLY suboptimal play is scum play. Period. Town will not do things on purpose that actually hurt their chances on winning, and that is absolutely what you are doing. You either did something as town that I know you are smarter than to do, or you are scum. Like if a newbie did it, not as much of an issue because you have to assume they don't know better. You doing it, issue.

Are you saying you'll let people get away with scummy shit because of their past? Are you saying you're OK with his recklessness because it's a thing with him? That you're fine with him potentially fucking things up for the town because it's how he rolls?

I am saying that there are people on this site who will make bad moves on purpose because they don't know any better or because they prefer to play loose feeling it helps keep people off balance and every one in a while it completely nukes the town if they are town. Normally these are the types of players I also don't mind lynching because they are borderline liabilities. I know UT is more of a loose player but not as much of a liability to be playing as he is, so I think its a good chance he is scum.

Vote UT

Putting me at L-1 and immediately trying to pawn off any accidental hammer on others (and I am town) which shows him willfully playing suboptimal as he knows better than that
The fact that he tried to shift blame makes the assumption that I would flip town as only blame would occur if I flipped town
Him oversimplifying my saying he is playing suboptimal in order to not respond to the points I am making
Requesting hammer without a claim
Requesting a hammer with two votes on the wagon being RVS votes and one other not have posted any content
He is calling people scum for unvoting to wait to hear more content from aforementioned people

[ChannelDelibird]

Hello. I've had other priorities this weekend; more from me coming tomorrow. However, I can point out as the post is just above me (PEDIT: not any more; the one from OnionBubs) that I have not made a random vote in this game, and also that in a rare Night-start game, discussing who might have killed who on Night 0 is worth talking about. UT brought up nightkill analysis and I'm happy to be honest about what I would have suggested. It's quite possible that I would have argued against a CES kill and been overruled by buddies... but that's for you to figure out. UT knows me reasonably well, though, so I imagine he's more likely to be able to read a self-meta statement like that from me than you, with whom I've not previously played.

[Untrod Tripod]

Heck for that matter why don't I just call you scum because you automatically assumed that anyone who hammered me when you put me at L-1 the first time would be scum

hey, wiseguy, I wasn't expecting anyone to hammer you. pack that shit up it's fucking stupid and useless.

[Untrod Tripod]

I don't even know where to start with that mess Llama posted.

it's all based on a bunch of faulty premises about why I'm doing what I'm doing and it STILL is not imo coming from a town perspective

[Untrod Tripod]

what really seals the deal for me is that he didn't start pushing on me until after he waited to see if he could get some other people willing to run with it first

if it was a real read it wouldn't have been a throwaway "oh I guess I could vote him too" initially

this some classic scum OMGUS right here

[LlamaFluff]

Heck for that matter why don't I just call you scum because you automatically assumed that anyone who hammered me when you put me at L-1 the first time would be scum

hey, wiseguy, I wasn't expecting anyone to hammer you. pack that shit up it's fucking stupid and useless.

But if it did, you made the assumption I was town. Like I already covered, people do get hammered accidently at times, and you enabled it and even came to a conclusion of how you would react to it that included what you expected my alignment to be.

what really seals the deal for me is that he didn't start pushing on me until after he waited to see if he could get some other people willing to run with it first

if it was a real read it wouldn't have been a throwaway "oh I guess I could vote him too" initially

this some classic scum OMGUS right here

Or its that GIF backing off both wagons was something that I liked a bit and then you started asking for a hammer with a quarter of the game not posting content and a third of my votes being RVS votes made you more scum than him.

[Untrod Tripod]

hey yo llama before we keep arguing, can we go out of character for a second:

am I being too abrasive or whatever? I'm not trying to be a dick, so if you want me to tone it back I will

[Untrod Tripod]

okay I hear what you're saying, but I mean, it's day 1? I wanted information in general. I was in a position to get some and I went for it.

what's the end game, exactly, as scum, if that was my strategy?

[Untrod Tripod]

you're trying to paint a motivation on me that literally makes no sense coming from scum

[petroleumjelly]

Day One, Vote Count #4

LlamaFluff – 4 – ChannelDelibird, Equinox, prawneater, Untrod Tripod
Untrod Tripod – 3 – Derangement, Onion Bubs, LlamaFluff
Derangement – 1 – onion
TellTaleHeart – 1 – GuyInFreezer

With

11 alive

it takes

6

to lynch and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is

March 5, 2015, at 6:45 AM PST

.

Not Voting – 2 – Futan, TellTaleHeart

[Derangement]

what's the end game, exactly, as scum, if that was my strategy?

Are you saying that, if llama is town and you're scum, a quickhammer mislynch now, followed by a mislynch on whoever dropped the first hammer,

isn't

something you'd want?

Come day three, you'd give us with the exact same arguments you're using now.
Maybe you'd get lynched (and maybe scum could get town cred for bussing you).
Maybe you'd NK the right people and manage to convince the rest of us of your innocence, or WIFOM your way out of a lynch, making it even

better

for you!

Whatever the case, you'd be shortcutting your team right into an easier endgame.

[Untrod Tripod]

Are you saying that, if llama is town and you're scum, a quickhammer mislynch now, followed by a mislynch on whoever dropped the first hammer, isn't something you'd want?

uh, no

[Derangement]

Are you saying that, if llama is town and you're scum, a quickhammer mislynch now, followed by a mislynch on whoever dropped the first hammer, isn't something you'd want?

uh, no

Then what

are

you saying?

[Untrod Tripod]

it's worthless self-meta bs, but fwiw:

as scum I would want town to think a mislynch is their idea in that scenario. I wouldn't be asking for blood, I'd be saying "oh this here is just pressure, no quickhammers no rush here everyone get in and talk about it and do what you feel"

I'm a cheeky motherfucker, but I'm not *that* cheeky

[Untrod Tripod]

knowingly pushing a mislynch like that, in that way, does nothing but drawn attention to me and allows for big bright spotlight associative tells around the wagon

there's no upshot to doing that

[Derangement]

knowingly pushing a mislynch like that, in that way, does nothing but drawn attention to me and allows for big bright spotlight associative tells around the wagon

there's no upshot to doing that

This could very well be WIFOM on your part, but you're right: it

does

draw a lot of attention to you, regardless of the outcome.
Now to figure out how likely you are to try this kind of stunt as either alignment...

[Onion Bubs]

Hello. I've had other priorities this weekend; more from me coming tomorrow. However, I can point out as the post is just above me (PEDIT: not any more; the one from OnionBubs) that I have not made a random vote in this game, and also that in a rare Night-start game, discussing who might have killed who on Night 0 is worth talking about. UT brought up nightkill analysis and I'm happy to be honest about what I would have suggested. It's quite possible that I would have argued against a CES kill and been overruled by buddies... but that's for you to figure out. UT knows me reasonably well, though, so I imagine he's more likely to be able to read a self-meta statement like that from me than you, with whom I've not previously played.

Wait, you say you haven't made a random vote in this game?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

VOTE: LlamaFluff

What is this? Chopped liver?

[LlamaFluff]

hey yo llama before we keep arguing, can we go out of character for a second:

am I being too abrasive or whatever? I'm not trying to be a dick, so if you want me to tone it back I will

No. If someone crosses that line it becomes very obvious from my immediate reaction to the post.

what's the end game, exactly, as scum, if that was my strategy?

Creates general unease in the game and in the offchance that town does something really dumb you basically have a night start with a complete wash for day one play to boot. I guess the counter to that argument is if town what was your real strategy there? It doesn't make much sense for either alignment to pull, but if you look at possible results it more benefits scum.

Also I absolutely could see scum be that cheeky if they think they can get away with it.

Again though, why were you pushing for a hammer with a third of the wagon being RVS votes and quarter of the game not having posted any content? Pushing to a lynch quickly is something that at least from what I have done is almost always a scum move when a situation emerges where the more time town has to think the better they will likely end up.

[Untrod Tripod]

yeah, it could be a really long convoluted strategy that completely fucks my side

or I could just think you're scum

[LlamaFluff]

So your read on me is such that you want a lynch with easily a quarter of the game (closer to half) having contributed absolutely nothing?

[Untrod Tripod]

you're riding that stat like it owes you money, man. give it up.

the number of people who have posted doesn't change my read on you. hell, the game having some direction to it gives them incentive to get off their lazy butts and contribute.

[Futan]

Need to see this.

I thought it would be spectacular, but alas, after a 9 hour road trip I was buggered.

I've asked for a replacement as I've also got 3 major released scheduled for the next 2 weeks.

Sorry I couldn't contribute more for town. I'll post again tonight with reads if I haven't been replaced yet.

[ChannelDelibird]

Wait, you say you haven't made a random vote in this game?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

VOTE: LlamaFluff

What is this? Chopped liver?

The only one calling that random is you. I'm clearly reacting to the CES kill and I voted for somebody whom I thought was likelier than some others to be aware of CES's skill and therefore push for a kill on him. It's not

precise

, sure, and Llama isn't the only one who'd know to be wary of CES, but it wasn't a random vote by any means.

Anyway, I'll read up and stuff over this evening.

[prawneater]

Vote GIF

His response to Equinox putting him in the group that has played with CES and calling him scum was to question him being in there. Not trying to actually question the validity of it but concerned with being a part of it.

Would also vote UT

This attack on GIF feels like a reach. GIF's response to Equinox was a genuine "I forgot". Reading anything else here and voting on it is bad.

[Onion Bubs]

Wait, you say you haven't made a random vote in this game?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

VOTE: LlamaFluff

What is this? Chopped liver?

The only one calling that random is you. I'm clearly reacting to the CES kill and I voted for somebody whom I thought was likelier than some others to be aware of CES's skill and therefore push for a kill on him. It's not

precise

, sure, and Llama isn't the only one who'd know to be wary of CES, but it wasn't a random vote by any means.

Anyway, I'll read up and stuff over this evening.

"Clearly", right. Because when the first post from anyone other than the mod consists solely of a "BOO" with loads of o's and a vote, it must mean that player is putting serious thought into their vote based on the night kill, even though it is indistinguishable from an RVS vote.

Yeah, I don't buy it. If your only rationale for voting LlamaFluff was that he is a player who would be aware of Cogito Ergo Sum's skill and thus want him out of the picture, and if that reason can apply to even one other player, then:

1. Your vote
   was
   still random. It was just randomly determined from a subset of all living players rather than determined from all living players.
   
2. Why are you only explaining it now? Why didn't you feel the need to explain it when you originally made it?