Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[Cheetory6]

This argument is semantic and bad.
Neither of you are particularly scummy in my eyes for being on either end of it either.

I'm willing to be patient with this cycle, so let's not get burnt out with arguing over details that aren't that important.

[Cheetory6]

Don't forget about this either:

Is there more to the reasoning that you don't think eektor made a townslip or not?

[Boonskiies]

@Elbirn - let's pretend you're town, I want to see your thoughts on something...on the off chance that Elbirn vs Boon is TvT, who's scum?

[Boonskiies]

Where's the 'town slip' again? The thing on FF killed by scum? I don't feel like looking back on my phone.

[Cheetory6]

On second thought that might be why Fish got killed and make Cheetory more town, although I'll say null because it still did seem that Fish was buddying up to him.

I kind of think Eektor's town. Possibly for dumb reasons, but still.
I feel like the traitor mechanics this game are "if you shoot them, they join you" and I think mafia would be aware of that.
Eektor being like "I think mafia killed their scummate" feels vaguely like a townslip.

Like, mafia could lose two members in a single night if vig shoots mafia and mafia shoots traitor.
There's no way this setup would get approved with that being a possibility.

[Elbirn]

Oh, and Boon, you still haven't responded to several of my points and instead just went off on one topic. To repeat: How in the blue hell are Eektor and Pie possibly scum together?

False. He slipped again. Trying to misrep me. Lynch this guy.

Oh, and cheetory, he keeps misrepping me and discrediting anything I say. That's definitely making me scum read him.

Look at this. Just look at it. Is anyone actually reading this shit?

I asked you, several, several times before you decided to answer. Why do you think Eektor + Pie = possibly scum. Now you're saying that I didn't, and you even quoted the post where I asked you. And you're calling it a misrep.

What the literal fuck is this hell.

@Elbirn - let's pretend you're town, I want to see your thoughts on something...on the off chance that Elbirn vs Boon is TvT, who's scum?

Monkey and Eektor. But I'm fairly certain team scum is you and Monkey.

[Boonskiies]

Cheetory, just read that fucking post. He's slipping!!! I did answer pie and eektor, and you are changing it up saying Monkey and Eektor, and then you realized you slipped, and now you're trying to change it up by MISREPPINGG ME AGAIN!. Elbirn scum reading Monkey strongly is a big reason I'm town reading Monkey. Formerfish/Monkey/Elbirn are all connected somehow, they just are t the full scum team. Replace monkey with Pie.

[Boonskiies]

I don't think it's a town tell, what else do you want me to say about it?!?!?!

[eektor]

@Elbirn You say one of your main scum reads in Monkey. Why do you think FF being a traitor would bus Monkey hard throughout the whole game if Monkey was scum?

[MonkeyMan576]

Why is Elbirn still alive. Who really thinks he is town and I am scum?

[pieguyn]

Are you saying you don't believe that Elbirn identified the Victor vs copper as town vs town at the beginning? Just because one post sounds town, doesn't make that person town. Scum can make some good townie posts. The only point that seems disingenuous is you saying your impression of him based on the town vs town argument. I read the post seeing you were biased of him being town because he correctly identified the whole Victor vs copper as town vs town. Which is true because I saw him say the same thing at the beginning. Now you are saying you didn't think he correctly identified the whole Victor vs copper as town vs town. Which one is it?

. . .

mixed feelings here. he's provided a good amount of content/analysis, most of which has been reasonable, and I can generally follow what his thought processes were. I generally liked his proactivity early game; namely the way he questioned eektor and how then he attempted to sort the VDA/copper interaction.

while I tend to bias towards people who correctly identified it as TvT and against those otherwise, and I thought VDA x copper was mostly white noise on both sides, I was inclined to agree VDA generally made more sense whereas copper didn't, and I liked the way he basically said he thought most of what copper was saying was crap - again, I can see why he thought that and I buy that he believed it.

this has always been what I thought about Elbirn's reaction to VDA/copper D1. (in reference to his stance starting from 172).

and it's kind of funny that you think I'm scum defending Elbirn, but sans this there's nothing in my defense that you think is disingenuous. if there isn't anything disingenuous about it, why exactly do you think it's coming from me-scum defending a partner, again? as I said to Boon, if you think it's coming from the POV of scum defending a partner, there should be something that is indicative of this.

It's possible, of course. But the way Elbirn and pie are refusing to attack each other, despite the obvious questionable behavior to everyone else, just leads to a certain picture. Plus Elbirn/pie fits with Fish more than eektor.

funny that you say this, but when I ask about what "questionable behavior" is coming from Elbirn, you don't actually answer the question.

not to mention I don't believe anyone has actually pushed any of my behavior as questionable anywhere (sans Boon and none of what he's posted has made any sense) and most of the reason for scum reading me seems to be POE. I don't think you're scum, but you're being a massive derp.

I kind of think Eektor's town. Possibly for dumb reasons, but still.
I feel like the traitor mechanics this game are "if you shoot them, they join you" and I think mafia would be aware of that.
Eektor being like "I think mafia killed their scummate" feels vaguely like a townslip.

not a town slip i m o

it isn't difficult to come up with weird angles like that as scum

[Boonskiies]

@Pie - you just said you don't think eektor is scum? You don't think Elbirn is scum. You haven't really said anything about monkey. You've accepted Acryon/cheetory, and Radiants town. Slipped. You think there's one scum left and you think it's me?

[Boonskiies]

Wait, I messed up. Disregard that, Pie. I misread. You were directing that at monkey.

[eektor]

@Pie right I read that statement as you are biased toward Elbirn being town because he correctly identified Victor vs copper as town vs town. That is why I asked for clarification, did you actually mean that Elbirn didn't think it was town vs town at the beginning?

Also, why would you be disingenuous about defending a scum buddy?

The main problem with you is your reads are messed up. I understand your reads when you thought acryon was scum. Because most likely the scum buddy is not voting for acryon. It makes sense that you would think it was either me or Boon. But I wanted to know what your read was if you thought acryon was town, which you refused to give. Although now I know because now that you think acryon is town you still think me and boon are scum? Yet you don't even question Elbirn your hard town read that was voting for acryon who you think now is town? That makes no sense to me if you are town. Now that your acryon wagon fell apart you are trying hard to get any wagon trying to pull people off of Elbirn.

[RadiantCowbells]

*yawn*

[pieguyn]

@Pie right I read that statement as you are biased toward Elbirn being town because he correctly identified Victor vs copper as town vs town. That is why I asked for clarification, did you actually mean that Elbirn didn't think it was town vs town at the beginning?

that's what I've been saying this whole time, yes. albeit he did say it "might be a town fight" right at the very start of the game, but that didn't matter cos when it actually got serious he decided copper was scum

Also, why would you be disingenuous about defending a scum buddy?

. . . because I would obviously be making it up, and ergo, that should come through in some way in my defense. so if you think it's me defending a partner, you should have an idea of what exactly it is I'm making up, and why it's made up.

The main problem with you is your reads are messed up. I understand your reads when you thought acryon was scum. Because most likely the scum buddy is not voting for acryon. It makes sense that you would think it was either me or Boon. But I wanted to know what your read was if you thought acryon was town, which you refused to give. Although now I know because now that you think acryon is town you still think me and boon are scum? Yet you don't even question Elbirn your hard town read that was voting for acryon who you think now is town? That makes no sense to me if you are town. Now that your acryon wagon fell apart you are trying hard to get any wagon trying to pull people off of Elbirn.

uh.... seriously?

I refused to give reads based on if acryon was town because _Cheetory was softing a fucking guilty on acryon_, and I picked up on that. (and, hint hint, when acryon claimed and it became obvious he wasn't scum I did give my updated reads.)

Elbirn voting acryon isn't scummy, again, because _Cheetory was softing a fucking guilty on acryon_. moreover, even if it was, that by itself would be an awful reason for reversing a town read. you're essentially saying I'm scum because I'm not thinking of someone else as scum for one minor point despite all the other evidence I'm seeing pointing to them being town. how the fuck does that make any sense?

and yes, I am trying to get a wagon off of my town read and onto my scum read

this is pretty fucking awful, really. I'd like to know exactly *why* you think everything you're pointing out here is actually scummy.

[Flames682]

Votecount 3.07

Elbirn - 4 (RadiantCowbells, eektor, MonkeyMan576, Boonskiies)

Boonskiies - 3 (pieguyn, Cheetory6, Elbirn)

Not Voting - 1 (acryon)

With

8

alive, it's

5

to lynch.

Day Three's deadline is Saturday, February 28, @ 8:15 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2015-02-28 20:15:00).

[Boonskiies]

Why is it a town tell if someone says they have a 'town v town' on a 1v1? everytime I've been scum, one of my partners has said that on the day 1 1v1. I don't see how that makes anyone town at all.

[Elbirn]

Cheetory, just read that fucking post. He's slipping!!! I did answer pie and eektor, and you are changing it up saying Monkey and Eektor, and then you realized you slipped, and now you're trying to change it up by MISREPPINGG ME AGAIN!. Elbirn scum reading Monkey strongly is a big reason I'm town reading Monkey. Formerfish/Monkey/Elbirn are all connected somehow, they just are t the full scum team. Replace monkey with Pie.

Okay, I really, reaaaallly want you go to back and reread the last few posts we've had in our back and forth. Because I just reread it, just to make sure I'm not going insane, and no, I definitely said exactly what happened. You're either not understanding what's being said, or you're doing a very good job of ignoring what I'm saying and screaming "Misrep!" over all of my arguments in hopes that it will be more convincing than an actual counter-argument.

Speaking of which, your reaction to being pushed on is really telling imo. Very defensive, twisting words, shouting "misrep" and "discrediting" at everything without actually having a discussion.

@Elbirn You say one of your main scum reads in Monkey. Why do you think FF being a traitor would bus Monkey hard throughout the whole game if Monkey was scum?

I could see FF pushing on Scum-Monkey for a couple of reasons. Starting the push, that strong, that early, with little evidence? It's almost tongue in cheek. "Hey team-scum, I know who you arrreee notice me senpaii~~". It's an attention getter. If the lynch ever went through, +towncred for FF. If we accept the probability that NK'ing FF = "recruited" into team scum, getting towncred would be a good first step towards getting NK'd. Furthermore, if the lynch didn't go through and Monkey lived (which, obviously, happened) he's set up his partner with some nice WIFOM.

[Elbirn]

His hyper-obvious breadcrumb would also fit in with the theory that he wanted to be NK'd.

[Elbirn]

*yawn*

Still waiting on your oodles of analysis btw.

[Boonskiies]

We don't know scum's power. At this point, I'd believe Acryon's claim over Cheetory's, actually. There's definitely some sort of vigilante out there, whereas I guess mafia tracker is still a possibility. I don't think it's dumb for a PR to stay hidden at this point.

Well if there IS another PR, I think the best play is to claim. Because I don't expect there to be yet another town PR. And if there is, we need to sort that out TODAY and not tomorrow when we're in lylo, because that is a crappy position to be in.

Claim today: We can work out whether or not it's possible for there to be four town PR's, if there is we're one person closer to PoE'ing the scum, if there isn't then we have to work out who of Cheetory/Acryon/??? is the liar, because one of them is guaranteed scum.

Claim tomorrow: We now have one lynch to determine who the liar is. Scum probably wins. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if anyone PR claims tomorrow, I'll be pushing their lynch. Cuz I really, really don't see why a town PR would hide until tomorrow and put us in such a shitty spot.

How does it look manufactured? At all? This is how I always post around this point in games.

Also, @Elbirn - Pie and eektor are scumbuddies if somehow you flip town, due to POE for me. Only way this isn't possible is if somehow Cheetory is a mafia tracker. which I guess I could believe, but that's not today. After elbirn flips, we'll have an extra day on our hands. It'll set up for even more POE due to having an extra person out of Pie/Myself/Eektor lynched tomorrow. And then it's almost a surefire town win. Also, we could possibly even end the game with a town win tomorrow regardless.

Why isn't Monkey potential scum? Also your conclusion ignores the fact that NK will almost surely be one of RC/Cheeto/Acryon due to their conftowniness.

Enjoyed this site while it lasted, but an overzealous mod combo'd with ambiguous rules and unequal application has soured it for me.

@Mod: Replace me please.

Baby come back
You can blame it all on me

Nah for real don't go.

I think Monkey is town.

Why?

1418 rings scum for me.

The more the day goes by the more sure I am of a Fish/Elbirn/Pie scum team.

It's possible, of course. But the way Elbirn and pie are refusing to attack each other, despite the obvious questionable behavior to everyone else, just leads to a certain picture. Plus Elbirn/pie fits with Fish more than eektor.

What is this? I'm not going to attack the only townread I have outside of our conftowns. And also it sounds like you're stating that we should...stop not-attacking each other because it's questionable? We're scum because we're not manufacturing our behavior to fit what town wants. This is crap.

I want to know how Elbirn/Pie fits with Fish, and how Eektor doesn't.

Yeah, I misread. Sorry, I was phone posting and skimming in class. =/

[MonkeyMan576]

It's possible, of course. But the way Elbirn and pie are refusing to attack each other, despite the obvious questionable behavior to everyone else, just leads to a certain picture. Plus Elbirn/pie fits with Fish more than eektor.

funny that you say this, but when I ask about what "questionable behavior" is coming from Elbirn, you don't actually answer the question.

The fact that he rarely interacted with Fish, and now he's rarely confronting you, despite the fact that he seems to be a very opinionated and well spoken person in general. To me it seems scum are going out of their way to avoid each other in this game, of course, in doing so it only makes it more obvious who is scum, because the rest of the town seems to be fairly on the same page.

[Elbirn]

It's possible, of course. But the way Elbirn and pie are refusing to attack each other, despite the obvious questionable behavior to everyone else, just leads to a certain picture. Plus Elbirn/pie fits with Fish more than eektor.

funny that you say this, but when I ask about what "questionable behavior" is coming from Elbirn, you don't actually answer the question.

The fact that he rarely interacted with Fish, and now he's rarely confronting you, despite the fact that he seems to be a very opinionated and well spoken person in general.

To me it seems scum are going out of their way to avoid each other in this game

, of course, in doing so it only makes it more obvious who is scum, because the rest of the town seems to be fairly on the same page.

*opens Monkeys ISO*
*Searches "Boon"*
*18 instances*

Tell me what you think of Boon, monkey.

Oh, other gems from my brief search of the Monkey ISO.

I hate the RVS so I'm not going to vote.

Don't wanna vote your scum buddy as a joke and have it come back to haunt you?

lol yep you got it.

What if this is just really cheeky scum telling the truth?

Is rvs something you always avoid participating in?

no, I'm not scum. No, I don't always avoid it, but it becomes more apparent it is useless every game I play in.

If you'll look to your left, you'll see Team-Scum having a tea-party.

Town:

Monkeyman576
RadiantCowbells(innocent child)
Elbirn

Formerfish

Cheetory6

Boonskies

Null:

Futan
Toon Fighter
eektor
SiX
acryon

Scum

VictorDeAngelo
copper223

And on your right, the worlds crappiest reads list. And hey, look who's in the "Town-read" pile! Hmmmmm.

[pieguyn]

Why is it a town tell if someone says they have a 'town v town' on a 1v1? everytime I've been scum, one of my partners has said that on the day 1 1v1. I don't see how that makes anyone town at all.

........ were you even reading my post?

not only did I never say it was a particularly good tell, that isn't even why I claimed Elbirn was town (since he didn't actually do that). it just happens to be a personal bias of mine that scum are slightly more likely to take advantage of TvT 1v1s by picking a side and pushing there. I liked Elbirn's reaction _despite_ him doing this bc it came off genuine enough anyway and I could follow why he came to the conclusion that he did.

The fact that he rarely interacted with Fish

here's an exercise for you

open Boon + eektor in dual ISO and look at how much they interacted with each other.

and fwiw from the rereading I've done so far FF's interactions actually pretty much clear Elbirn (and to some extent myself too, but that's beside the point). will prob elaborate on this after I reread more