Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[Cheetory6]

I'm honestly getting pretty close to replacing out.
This rhetoric war with no actual substance is just stupid and I'm getting tired of trying to sort people shouting "THIS PERSON IS SCUM" and calling anyone who doesn't agree dumb. This shit happened on D1 and it made it super fucking hard to sort Victor/Copper.

I'm so demotivated trying to look at anything anyone is saying because it's just so confbiased and stupid.

Seriously.
Dumb.

[Cheetory6]

Like, I'm so burnt out from being in so many games. Can people just not be ridiculous for the rest of this cycle? Is that too much to ask? It shouldn't be hard to put forth a case and not shout back and forth over nothing.
I get one of you is almost definitely scum and fucking with us, but whichever of you is town is making this super hard and I don't appreciate it.
Make a case with concise points. Quote things. Use analysis. Point out useful flaws in arguments or something. Point out weird areas in tone.

Stop making semantic arguments. Stop back-and-forthing nothing. Stop calling each other stupid/getting angry.

Please.

[pieguyn]

(((cheetory)))

[Cheetory6]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzs.
I shouldn't look at mafia when I'm tired.
Sorry.
I'm being overdramatic, but like jeeeeeeeeeeze I'm getting tired of the rhetoric/noise.
I want something I understand. I understand nothing about why Elbirn is scum from what I've seen this cycle.
Help me understand it if you're town Boon.

[Elbirn]

Look I'm sorry man, I'm not trying to be a disruption. I really don't want to be the source of anyone having a bad time with this game. Boon is just legitimately spouting nonsense and I can't help calling him out on it. I know it's a childish argument to go "But he started it!", but that's really where I'm at right now.

For what it's worth, I just really thought about it and realized how utterly fucked we are. Because Team-Scum is on my wagon, plus 1 other unknown, plus RC. There's no way any of them will change their votes, scum is scum, unknown is just bad, RC is a deadslot. Even if Acryon replacement votes Boon, we're deadlocked and wind up with a no lynch. This doesn't end any other way but me dying or compromise voting WITH scum to kill my townread. Not happening. So I'm dead.

Moving on to tomorrow, the quartet of nonsense unanimously votes Pie and then scum wins. We really can't win this game.

[Elbirn]

If it helps I can just ignore Boon from now on whenever he says something I deem stupid. I.e., arguing over semantics and nitpicking my words and so on. I'll answer questions and ask questions, but not respond to crap?

[Cheetory6]

I can't even really fault you that much at this point.
I'm just frustrated in general that whatever stance I end up taking here will quite possibly make me an idiot if I end up choosing wrong and it feels like nobody is trying to help me get to the right choice other than you and I don't know if you're scum trying to screw with me q.q

[Cheetory6]

I'm gonna try not to look at this game for a day and instead focus on metadiving Boon/Elbirn scum meta and see what it looks like.

[eektor]

Look I'm sorry man, I'm not trying to be a disruption. I really don't want to be the source of anyone having a bad time with this game. Boon is just legitimately spouting nonsense and I can't help calling him out on it. I know it's a childish argument to go "But he started it!", but that's really where I'm at right now.

For what it's worth, I just really thought about it and realized how utterly fucked we are. Because Team-Scum is on my wagon, plus 1 other unknown, plus RC. There's no way any of them will change their votes, scum is scum, unknown is just bad, RC is a deadslot. Even if Acryon replacement votes Boon, we're deadlocked and wind up with a no lynch. This doesn't end any other way but me dying or compromise voting WITH scum to kill my townread. Not happening. So I'm dead.

Moving on to tomorrow, the quartet of nonsense unanimously votes Pie and then scum wins. We really can't win this game.

Are you saying town is in trouble if we lynch you, because if you turn up town, we would all move to lynch pie? If you actually flip town (which I highly doubt), I wouldn't be interested in a pie lynch tomorrow.

[eektor]

@pie I'm not sure how you want me to respond.

@Pie right I read that statement as you are biased toward Elbirn being town because he correctly identified Victor vs copper as town vs town. That is why I asked for clarification, did you actually mean that Elbirn didn't think it was town vs town at the beginning?

that's what I've been saying this whole time, yes. albeit he did say it "might be a town fight" right at the very start of the game, but that didn't matter cos when it actually got serious he decided copper was scum

Also, why would you be disingenuous about defending a scum buddy?

. . . because I would obviously be making it up, and ergo, that should come through in some way in my defense. so if you think it's me defending a partner, you should have an idea of what exactly it is I'm making up, and why it's made up.

The main problem with you is your reads are messed up. I understand your reads when you thought acryon was scum. Because most likely the scum buddy is not voting for acryon. It makes sense that you would think it was either me or Boon. But I wanted to know what your read was if you thought acryon was town, which you refused to give. Although now I know because now that you think acryon is town you still think me and boon are scum? Yet you don't even question Elbirn your hard town read that was voting for acryon who you think now is town? That makes no sense to me if you are town. Now that your acryon wagon fell apart you are trying hard to get any wagon trying to pull people off of Elbirn.

uh.... seriously?

Yes, seriously

I refused to give reads based on if acryon was town because _Cheetory was softing a fucking guilty on acryon_, and I picked up on that. (and, hint hint, when acryon claimed and it became obvious he wasn't scum I did give my updated reads.)

Elbirn voting acryon isn't scummy, again, because _Cheetory was softing a fucking guilty on acryon_. moreover, even if it was, that by itself would be an awful reason for reversing a town read. you're essentially saying I'm scum because I'm not thinking of someone else as scum for one minor point (

You say minor I say major)

despite all the other evidence I'm seeing pointing to them being town. how the fuck does that make any sense?

and yes, I am trying to get a wagon off of my town read and onto my scum read

this is pretty fucking awful, really. I'd like to know exactly *why* you think everything you're pointing out here is actually scummy.

Why would scum not jump on a soft cop claim that someone is guilty when they know they are town? So if you shift to acryon being town, it should cause you to doubt your Elbirn town read. You are too sure Elbirn is town. You are so sure of Elbirn being town, that if we lynch Boon and he flips town, you still wouldn't doubt Elbirn is town.

[pieguyn]

Why would scum not jump on a soft cop claim that someone is guilty when they know they are town? So if you shift to acryon being town, it should cause you to doubt your Elbirn town read.

there isn't a reason scum wouldn't (save failing to notice). however, the point here is that _there isn't a reason town wouldn't, either_.

it is perfectly reasonable for town to jump on a soft guilty, hence the act of doing so is a null tell. the fact you didn't realize this is (to steal Cheetory's phrase) a shallow analysis of the situation.

You are too sure Elbirn is town. You are so sure of Elbirn being town, that if we lynch Boon and he flips town, you still wouldn't doubt Elbirn is town.

and I still want to know exactly *why* you seem to think this is scummy.

what part of my defense do you feel is unjustified? as I've said countless times, if you have a problem with the way I'm defending Elbirn, you should be able to explain *why* you think I'm making it up or why it's unjustified.

also

@Cheetory:

I realize this was directed at Elbirn, but I can give a quick rundown of my issues with Boon's play if you want. although it'll have to wait until later cos I'm busy p much all of today

[eektor]

Why would scum not jump on a soft cop claim that someone is guilty when they know they are town? So if you shift to acryon being town, it should cause you to doubt your Elbirn town read.

there isn't a reason scum wouldn't (save failing to notice). however, the point here is that _there isn't a reason town wouldn't, either_.

it is perfectly reasonable for town to jump on a soft guilty, hence the act of doing so is a null tell. the fact you didn't realize this is (to steal Cheetory's phrase) a shallow analysis of the situation.

You are too sure Elbirn is town. You are so sure of Elbirn being town, that if we lynch Boon and he flips town, you still wouldn't doubt Elbirn is town.

and I still want to know exactly *why* you seem to think this is scummy.

what part of my defense do you feel is unjustified? as I've said countless times, if you have a problem with the way I'm defending Elbirn, you should be able to explain *why* you think I'm making it up or why it's unjustified.

also

@Cheetory:

I realize this was directed at Elbirn, but I can give a quick rundown of my issues with Boon's play if you want. although it'll have to wait until later cos I'm busy p much all of today

Town I would think would be more suspicious than just jump in with any person claiming a guilty.

Why do I think you being so sure of Elbirn is scummy? First of all, as far as I know you don't have a history of playing with him. You aren't saying guys listen this is Elbirn's town game, he isn't scum here. Second, your reasons listed does not warrant such a hard town read (you are acting like he is a confirmed town). Third, this kind of hard town read would make sense if you were a cop and got an innocent from him, but if you were a cop you wouldn't jump in and vote for acryon if Cheetory was soft claiming a cop with a guilty. Also, it would not explain Elbirn's hard town read on you (so much that you are pretty much a confirmed town to him).

Your defense of Elbirn is an exaggeration. You take minor points and exaggerate them to major points where he is literally a confirmed town to you.

[Elbirn]

Look I'm sorry man, I'm not trying to be a disruption. I really don't want to be the source of anyone having a bad time with this game. Boon is just legitimately spouting nonsense and I can't help calling him out on it. I know it's a childish argument to go "But he started it!", but that's really where I'm at right now.

For what it's worth, I just really thought about it and realized how utterly fucked we are. Because Team-Scum is on my wagon, plus 1 other unknown, plus RC. There's no way any of them will change their votes, scum is scum, unknown is just bad, RC is a deadslot. Even if Acryon replacement votes Boon, we're deadlocked and wind up with a no lynch. This doesn't end any other way but me dying or compromise voting WITH scum to kill my townread. Not happening. So I'm dead.

Moving on to tomorrow, the quartet of nonsense unanimously votes Pie and then scum wins. We really can't win this game.

Are you saying town is in trouble if we lynch you, because if you turn up town, we would all move to lynch pie? If you actually flip town (which I highly doubt), I wouldn't be interested in a pie lynch tomorrow.

So when I flip town, who are you voting for tomorrow?

Why would scum not jump on a soft cop claim that someone is guilty when they know they are town? So if you shift to acryon being town, it should cause you to doubt your Elbirn town read. You are too sure Elbirn is town. You are so sure of Elbirn being town, that if we lynch Boon and he flips town, you still wouldn't doubt Elbirn is town.

This kinda sucks. I actually started thinking Cheeto was Cop D2. After D1 he was FoS'ing me pretty hard, and Victor's dying words were basically "whoever is investigative, target Elbirn or Acryon". After D1, Cheeto didn't push me at ALL, but he did push Acryon if I'm not mistaken? This gave me the impression that he was cop, he targeted me, and since I came up innocent he moved on to the alternative. D3 he told us to kill Acryon and I correctly interpreted him as implying he had a guilty.

Granted, none of that was actually *right* per se, as Cheeto was supposedly blocked N1 and moved off of me for....I don't know why. And he was a tracker, not a cop. But the point is, I already had a basis for believing a Cheeto cop claim, and when he did claim, I bought it.

That last part there also sucks. Why am I guaranteed scum if Boon flips town?

Town I would think would be more suspicious than just jump in with any person claiming a guilty.

Why do I think you being so sure of Elbirn is scummy? First of all, as far as I know you don't have a history of playing with him. You aren't saying guys listen this is Elbirn's town game, he isn't scum here. Second, your reasons listed does not warrant such a hard town read (you are acting like he is a confirmed town). Third, this kind of hard town read would make sense if you were a cop and got an innocent from him, but if you were a cop you wouldn't jump in and vote for acryon if Cheetory was soft claiming a cop with a guilty. Also, it would not explain Elbirn's hard town read on you (so much that you are pretty much a confirmed town to him).

1. Discrediting a townread based on a lack of meta, and for a player who has a whopping TWO completed games? This sucks. The implication that you need to play a game with a person in order to read them is blatantly false.

2. This is entirely opinion.

3. I don't think you need to be a cop to have a hard townread. Again, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[Elbirn]

I can't even really fault you that much at this point.
I'm just frustrated in general that whatever stance I end up taking here will quite possibly make me an idiot if I end up choosing wrong and it feels like nobody is trying to help me get to the right choice other than you and I don't know if you're scum trying to screw with me q.q

I'm gonna try not to look at this game for a day and instead focus on metadiving Boon/Elbirn scum meta and see what it looks like.

No, I think you can. Fault me, that is. I've been a bit more...Rough around the edges this game. I don't know, this particular game is just really getting under my skin, and I feel like somewhere here I crossed the line from just being aggressive to being downright mean. Which is odd in the first place because I think I've always been a bit more...Meek, in my other games. Maybe that was newbie jitters, maybe my personality really is just being an asshole. I don't know. At any rate I apologize to all, particularly to Boon and RC, they've obviously gotten the worst of it

I agree with you on not looking at the game for a while, I've been thinking about V/LA'ing for this weekend, calming down, and coming back to this game on monday with a fresh perspective on things.

Oh, you mentioned meta. Again, only two games. But if you click my wiki link I've got links to both there, one town and one scum, conveniently enough. ^_^

[eektor]

So when I flip town, who are you voting for tomorrow?

If you flip town, I would probably push for Boon.

This kinda sucks. I actually started thinking Cheeto was Cop D2. After D1 he was FoS'ing me pretty hard, and Victor's dying words were basically "whoever is investigative, target Elbirn or Acryon". After D1, Cheeto didn't push me at ALL, but he did push Acryon if I'm not mistaken? This gave me the impression that he was cop, he targeted me, and since I came up innocent he moved on to the alternative. D3 he told us to kill Acryon and I correctly interpreted him as implying he had a guilty.

Granted, none of that was actually *right* per se, as Cheeto was supposedly blocked N1 and moved off of me for....I don't know why. And he was a tracker, not a cop. But the point is, I already had a basis for believing a Cheeto cop claim, and when he did claim, I bought it.

That last part there also sucks. Why am I guaranteed scum if Boon flips town?

First of all Cheetory was voting you Day 2 until he moved to acryon. Are you telling me you thought he was a cop that investigated you, went on to vote for you and then decide to switch to acryon? If you are town, why would you think he would be a cop that investigated you and then end up voting for you? Also, I didn't say you were guaranteed scum but in a way I guess you would be by PoE (just like you said if monkey is town I must be scum by PoE). With no counter claims to Cheetory and acryon, they must be town, RC is confirmed town. Which leaves me, you, pie, Monkey, Boon. I know I'm town and if Boon flips town that leaves pie, you, and Monkey. With two scum left, out of that pool of 3, the only thing that would make sense is you and pie.

1. Discrediting a townread based on a lack of meta, and for a player who has a whopping TWO completed games? This sucks. The implication that you need to play a game with a person in order to read them is blatantly false.

2. This is entirely opinion.

3. I don't think you need to be a cop to have a hard townread. Again, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

1. I'm not discrediting a town read, I'm discrediting a hard town read (like I said earlier you are acting like he's confirmed town). Who besides you guys hard town reading each other has a hard town read on either of you guys? Forget about your scum reads, leaving Cheetory, acryon, and RC. None of them are hard town reading either of you guys.

2. Maybe but if it was obvious what about the others?

3. This goes back to your 2nd point and my answer to it.

[Elbirn]

First of all Cheetory was voting you Day 2 until he moved to acryon. Are you telling me you thought he was a cop that investigated you, went on to vote for you and then decide to switch to acryon? If you are town, why would you think he would be a cop that investigated you and then end up voting for you? Also, I didn't say you were guaranteed scum but in a way I guess you would be by PoE (just like you said if monkey is town I must be scum by PoE). With no counter claims to Cheetory and acryon, they must be town, RC is confirmed town. Which leaves me, you, pie, Monkey, Boon. I know I'm town and if Boon flips town that leaves pie, you, and Monkey. With two scum left, out of that pool of 3, the only thing that would make sense is you and pie.

Okay, so you're right, he did vote me early D2. I was wrong. But it doesn't change that what I said was genuinely my thought process. At some point mid/late D2, I thought about the fact that Cheeto wasn't pushing me, despite having me as a top scumread D1, and a little lightbulb went off in my head that said "Hey, he's the cop". Feel free to think that's crap, but that's what happened in my lil ol' noggin.

1. I'm not discrediting a town read, I'm discrediting a hard town read (like I said earlier you are acting like he's confirmed town). Who besides you guys hard town reading each other has a hard town read on either of you guys? Forget about your scum reads, leaving Cheetory, acryon, and RC. None of them are hard town reading either of you guys.

2. Maybe but if it was obvious what about the others?

3. This goes back to your 2nd point and my answer to it.

1. What does the opinion of the others have to do with anything? Even if it did matter, I'd say Cheetory is leaning towards our side in this argument, Acryon idk, but he's replacing out anyway, and RC....Well RC has made her opinions clear, and I don't agree with them but they are what they are. I don't see how it matters either way.

2/3. I'm not sure what you're saying here?

[eektor]

Well, this game is pretty much a stalemate. Hopefully we get a replacement for acryon soon.

[Elbirn]

Yeah...

Anyone up for a compromise lynch on Monkey? No? Just me?

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm pretty sure when push comes to shove, Cheetory will switch rather than no lynch, so I don't see it as a stalemate no matter what Acryon's replacement does.

[pieguyn]

Town I would think would be more suspicious than just jump in with any person claiming a guilty.

this is false, and that's all I'll say about that. I don't care to argue theory any further

Why do I think you being so sure of Elbirn is scummy? First of all, as far as I know you don't have a history of playing with him. You aren't saying guys listen this is Elbirn's town game, he isn't scum here. Second, your reasons listed does not warrant such a hard town read (you are acting like he is a confirmed town).

yes they do.

until someone can explain to me why

1. FF would act the way he did around the Elbirn wagon
2.

[pieguyn]

feck

until someone can explain to me why

1. FF would act the way he did around the Elbirn wagon
2. the exact same fucking scum who have been on the first 2 lynch wagons (in this case I think Boon/you, but this works even if I'm wrong as to exactly who it is) have popped up again on Elbirn's wagon (and don't try to bullshit around this by calling me scum. I know there necessarily has to be at least one on there at this point FMPOV)

there is literally no reason for me to think Elbirn could be scum here. both of these are indicators that basically clear him.

and saying I apparently need meta in order to have a strong town read on someone (as opposed to using my scum hunting ability to figure it out) is really really shallow

[Boonskiies]

You wanted to meta dive, Cheetory? I have two scum games.

Scum:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=59089 - won as last scum alive.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=59745 - lost, was a policy lynch Day 1.


Here are some of my more recent town games:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60022 - lost, was lynched in lylo.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59879 - lost, was lynched the day before lylo.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59293 - lost, was lynched in 3 person lylo.

Damn, i've been losing a lot lately...I used to win every game, haha. This is completely my town game.

[Boonskiies]

If you check all of my town games, you can see that I epicly tunneled on each and every one of them near the end, got lynched, and then town went on to lose the game.

[Elbirn]

I mean, I'll read them. I'm sure Cheeto will too. Maybe there's a useful tell or two in there, who knows. But the purpose of meta seems kinda defeated when you're so self aware of it, and it feels weird that you assert that certain behaviors of yours are town and so should be ignored. Like 1572, okay, great, but now that we know you're aware of that, you could very well be scum manufacturing this scenario because you think it'll give you cred.

You link us your meta, and you make it useless in doing so :/

[Boonskiies]

I mean, i'm aware of it yes. The differences are obvious still, regardless if I'm aware of it or not. It's like Mel Blanc and how he could do Bugs Bunny doing an impression of Daffy Duck and have it be entirely different than how Daffy Duck actually is (great acting there, by the way). Regardless, you can tell when it's an impression or not.