New York 181 -- Game Over

[SilverWolf]

@Silverwolf

What do you think of nik?

Sorry, I'm not trying to ignore you. I'll take a look. Hold on.

Got too tired last night. I gave a slight townread here 239 due to at least trying to scumhunt and the further clarification of some of his answers made sense. I think there's scummier people but I do approve of the pressure because his answers to your questions are less than stellar. Anyone townreading texcat off a joke, who has done absolutely nothing in this game and given poor answers to questions should be questioned more.

[SilverWolf]

People who are lurking/saying nothing of value, dodging questions or giving bad answers.

-texcat

-deltawave

-ABR

-artistincompre

Note to self that there's probably scum in this group.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor You totally ignored my question. How did you get a town read out of a joke. (even through i did have a chuckle at it).

uh no i didn't ignore your question, i said i thought she seems chill.

I meant I asked you why that would be considered a town read.

i'm too cool for quizzes.

i liked tex's answer to albert's question. she seems chill.

texcat, your analysis on the game state and the players therein, please.

LOL, the only conclusion I've come to so far is that there are a lot of players who are hungry for breakfast.

So you got a town read from fluff how??????

1.She voted me with a blank vote but only felt like giving a reason when pressed. Her reason was hypocritical and reaching. I feel like she wouldn't of even given a reason if not pushed. This shows she wasn't interested on pushing my wagon and was content with being on it.

I voted you on like page 3. give me a break

Doesn't matter it's the fact you reacted the way you did.

If she was town I think she would factor we have two scum parties (4 mafia goons and 1 sk) and this is likely a slip in her thinking.

i did factor that in. i figured the chances were negligible and i was gonna be wrong on at least one pairing anyway so i ignored it since the point of the post was to bitch anyway.

You show no signs of factoring just this person can't be scum with this person ect.

3.She seems to be dishing out some reads with out reasoning. Texcat is a good example she is just town reading her because of texcats joke and when I pressed forward on it ignored me completely. Looking through all her post they lack proper reasoning.

dw, my inscrutability means i'm town. i have reasons for all my reads, i just choose not to share most of them bc they'd sound like bs.

If even you think they sound bs shouldn't that tell you something? It comes off to me that you're dodging giving a valid reason.[/quote]
a) texcat seems relaxed in the face of questioning.
b) if you actually find a vote without a reason on page 3 scummy then i have no words.
c) i don't need to explicitly post everything if the intent behind the post (to whine) was clear anyway.
d) the scholar should be wary of declaring his discoveries, lest he be accused of witchery and hanged.

[SilverWolf]

Silver, again, I gave a few possibilities about your Wake vote. I find it weird that you picked one and decided that was what I was going with before I even decided myself. Personally, I was leaning towards you making an honest mistake in seeing scumminess that wasn't there. You seem to have seen something weird or different and decided it was scum. But your reaction to my listing other possibilities strikes me as, ironically, strange.

Forgot to address this yesterday. No, you said you didn't buy my reasoning for originally voting for Wake. You said it here 190. I explained it to you at least twice which I outlined here 239. Now you say you were giving me the benefit of the doubt which isn't true because you said you didn't buy my reasoning. So it's your inconsistencies that bug me in regards to your Wake vote, questions to me, and follow ups to it.

[Nikanor]

idk what the big issue with my read on tex is, i realize it is a weak read, if she starts scumposting i'll change my read but she's definitely on the back end of my reads atm.

[SilverWolf]

I can see texcat being null right now but I see nothing worth a townread. Being chill in the face of questioning is o.k. but texcat has barely been questioned and barely contributing anything to the game.

I am always wary of anyone giving a quick townread in the beginning of the game but I know people do it. Never understood it.

Meh, I don't see much of a Nikanor scumcase yet either. At least you are answering questions/further clarifying your positions and they make sense to me/don't sound scummy.

[Nikanor]

even if the read is ephemeral and meaningless you can benefit from posting it in-thread.

[davesaz]

VOTE: house

not sold on nikanor scum yet

I'd like to go back to this. You vote House after he votes texcat, but your post mentions not being sold on nikanor being scum. The cognitive dissonance bothered me at the time, but I wanted to see what developed from it. I don't especially like the way House got all paranoid as a result, but your vote coming out of the blue bothers me just as much if not more.

1. What are your reads on nikanor and texcat?

2. What did House do that caused you to vote him?

Nikanor can be town for his observation on wake even though I disagree with it being scummy. From my experience wake's posts are just fluffy and I do admit to not always reading the longer ones

Texcat I have no clue.

House's reads are shallow. I don't see him analyzing intentions, just going after actions that in their current context that should be null.

@wake house is a better player than to scumhunt in places that would boil down to semantic arguments so something's up

House's reads are shallow. I don't see him analyzing intentions, just going after actions that in their current context that should be null.

This statement doesn't jibe with his previous one about me at all.

Two different examples of Flubber insinuating knowledge of my playstyle where the information in his posts are directly contradictory to the desired perception of his posts.

First off, he's attempting to enlighten Wake on my playstyle. Wake, of all people. The person that introduced me to mafiascum, and Flubber thinks he can tell him something that he doesn't already know about me... which is doubly bad considering he's dead wrong in what he's trying to pass off to Wake.

Then, he makes some bullshit accusation about my scumhunting when I haven't even had a chance to begin yet considering we're in day fucking one, trying to make it sound like I have ulterior motives when there's simply nothing to work with.

This isn't town pushing a scumspect. This is scum chasing a safe target that he knows won't be lynched but justifies keeping him off the mislynch wagon.

I like House's reply a lot better than Flubber's. Early d1, less than 400 posts, you'd expect almost any case to be shallow, the main exception being if there had been any fireworks to this point. Scum love to find a shallow case and paint it as scummy, because that gets seeds planted on a townie plus it bolsters their credentials.

[Garmr]

a) texcat seems relaxed in the face of questioning.
b) if you actually find a vote without a reason on page 3 scummy then i have no words.
c) i don't need to explicitly post everything if the intent behind the post (to whine) was clear anyway.
d) the scholar should be wary of declaring his discoveries, lest he be accused of witchery and hanged.

A) That's ok but there really isn't to much pressure on anyone at the moment the wagon haven't even been past 6 yet. So really that's null as scum probs don't have pressure with this situation.

B)That's not what I found scummy I found that you felt need to give reasoning only after being pushed scummy don't try to twist things please.

C)Yeh but you proceed to devalue all your reads, By saying stuff like I just skimmed these pages or all those were silly.

D)Yeh but if you don't throw anything out here how do you expect to get anywhere.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.06

Nikanor - 3 - Mikazuki, elusive, Garmr
Garmr - 2 - texcat, Nikanor
Egg - 2 - Albert B. Rampage, SilverWolf
elusive - 2 - davesaz, Egg
Aneninen - 1 - T S O
dragonspawn - 1 - Aneninen
Flubbernugget - 1 - House
House - 1 - Flubbernugget
SilverWolf - 1 - DeltaWave
texcat - 1 - dragonspawn
T S O - 1 - Klingoncelt
Wake88 - 1 - ika

Not Voting: artistincompre, Shiro, Wake88

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-03-13 13:25:47)

[texcat]

I commented that anwers to Elusive's bonus question, "Who is the most dangerous player (for either alignment) in this game's player list and why?" could be useful to scum deciding who to kill. And it might, but it's not as though she had asked "Who is the best scum hunter here?"

What bothers me is how she keeps subtly changing the reasons for asking that question.

Bonus: Who people think is dangerous helps me to know who to trust\mistrust etc. {Stuffs}

Some of those questions (like the bonus) also builds some sort of interactions\who knows who and what they say about them.

Although the last question does give me info to compare to other games where I've asked similar questions and how honest people are or how answers compare.

We all know by now that Elusive's town meta is to ask questions and tunnel non-responders. How hard could it be to play to that town meta? And yet Elusive keeps trying to convince us that it would be impossibly difficult.

A few people can change their meta easily but most seem to have certain habits\defaults. Like having played with ika a bunch, there are certain things I know to look for. There was a game where I rolled scum (before someone broke the game and it had to be rerolled which was a relief) and I tried to "fluff post as usual" but most of the players who knew me were like "something is wrong, it feels forced." So even trying to play to your town meta is not going to be the same as being town. I don't know most people here so meta isn't useful except for what others says about it or not.

You shouldn't trust it as face value, that's a good sign. However, to be fair to ika I have a very recognizable meta from another site and my scum game is so terrible that you can tell a mile away.

I'm not buying it.

VOTE: Elusive

[Nikanor]

a) whatever you say bub
b) ok so let's take a step back here. please explain why you find my reasoning hypocritical and reaching. and also explain why i should have to push a wagon based on one post on page two. i'm sure i could look through your past games and find a similar situation where someone has made a serious vote early without explaining what it was about until asked. have you attacked everyone who has done this? if not, what's different about this game, or what's different about the way i did it.
c) again, the intent was to bitch about having too many conflicting scumreads, not to provide scumreads.
d) i generally have to wait until my scumreads make a post that i can reapond to with buzzwords, otherwise people just brush me off. vOv

[Nikanor]

tex, elusive has not been changing her reasons for asking the questions; none of those are exclusive.
also the "her meta would be easy to fake" reasoning is bad, at most it could be used to call her null.

[Nobody Special]

artistincompre has been prodded.

[texcat]

Nik, I'm not suspicious Elusive because of a contradiction in her reasons. I'm suspicious because she keeps bringing it up, and her reasons are becoming less sinister every time. Also, it's not her meta, it's her repeating that she is bad scum and that we would know immediately that she's scum. It's never wise to believe someone when they say they are bad scum, and saying it more than once makes me suspicious.

[Garmr]

a) whatever you say bub
b) ok so let's take a step back here. please explain why you find my reasoning hypocritical and reaching. and also explain why i should have to push a wagon based on one post on page two. i'm sure i could look through your past games and find a similar situation where someone has made a serious vote early without explaining what it was about until asked. have you attacked everyone who has done this? if not, what's different about this game, or what's different about the way i did it.
c) again, the intent was to bitch about having too many conflicting scumreads, not to provide scumreads.
d) i generally have to wait until my scumreads make a post that i can reapond to with buzzwords, otherwise people just brush me off. vOv

A.Others had said this to toots

B. Your basically saying I was reaching for a reason when you yourself had to reach for a reason after being pushed to explain yourself. The fact you actually felt a need to shows you want acceptance It was also obvious you took time to think of the reason after the vote not before by your post in between the vote and the reason. It's all the small things that add up to one scummy post You haven't really invalidated any of my reason. Also I don't think I have reacted the same way as town scrambling to find a reason after be asked why.

C. You were still posting game relevant information your point which included your scum reads so what if you were bitching? Also that a strawman argument as you taken this way far away from the original topic.

D.Why was it different then when you were pushed by dragonspawn. Why didn't you wait for one of these buzz words.

[dragonspawn]

I'm back but I need time to catch up and I have none at the moment.

[Flubbernugget]

@wake house is a better player than to scumhunt in places that would boil down to semantic arguments so something's up

House's reads are shallow. I don't see him analyzing intentions, just going after actions that in their current context that should be null.

This statement doesn't jibe with his previous one about me at all.

Two different examples of Flubber insinuating knowledge of my playstyle where the information in his posts are directly contradictory to the desired perception of his posts.

First off, he's attempting to enlighten Wake on my playstyle. Wake, of all people. The person that introduced me to mafiascum, and Flubber thinks he can tell him something that he doesn't already know about me... which is doubly bad considering he's dead wrong in what he's trying to pass off to Wake.

Then, he makes some bullshit accusation about my scumhunting when I haven't even had a chance to begin yet considering we're in day fucking one, trying to make it sound like I have ulterior motives when there's simply nothing to work with.

This isn't town pushing a scumspect. This is scum chasing a safe target that he knows won't be lynched but justifies keeping him off the mislynch wagon.

I'm not schooling wake. I'm informing him of my perspective. Why do you take no issue with him not refuting my perspective? It seems like you trust him to see where I'm wrong and address it.

Why were you pushing deadend votes that would continue to give you nothing to go off of?

[Flubbernugget]

@wake house is a better player than to scumhunt in places that would boil down to semantic arguments so something's up

Flubber talking like he knows more about me than he does is making me paranoid.

So can you prove to me your reasons for voting wouldn't end up becoming pedantic?

Did I miss a response to this because it's the crux of the issue

[ika]

If she flips scum, are you willing to be quicklynched afterwards?

lining up lynches are we?

[Egg]

Egg, the puzzle isn't complete yet.

I've played with Delta by the way. It was a while ago, but I feel like he kinda did a lot before. I don't remember too clearly though.

Minimal effort is practically my motto.

Found the game I was referring to. Unfortunately, I played on a different account. Rereading the game, yes, you put effort in especially late in the game. You were also scum lol.

Wake, Elusive's quiz isn't my issue. It's that fact that ALL Elusive has done is hide behind the quiz to look productive.

I think elusive is a much easier target then you House and Egg is going for her pretty strong and Flubber to a lesser extent. Just something to take note of. I don't think her quiz is that useful and is a distraction but she doesn't seem all that scummy for it. I'd be interested to see what ika says about it since he knows her.

Two questions:
1. Are all "easy" targets town?
2. Why is Elusive's quiz a useless and town motivated distraction rather than a way for scum to look busy?

TSO, your post about facades seemed to be reaction fishing. But then you mention not wanting pressure as either alignment and that feels genuine to me. So the two posts don't really go together. What were you trying to accomplish with the first post? You had to know it would draw criticism.

Silver, I hadn't decided anything at that point. Let's look at my post:

Silver, what I'm getting at is

I'm not sure

I buy that

you found it scummy

so much as

you thought "hey, this sounds good"

or maybe even

made a mistake in seeing scumminess that just isn't there

.

See the italics. If I was sure, I'd have voted you right then and there. Now I've also bolded the three possibilities. Two of them are likely to be town where the other is likely to be scum. At most, it's a slight concern. You blow up and say I'm misrepping you, and vote me on some seemingly OMGUS grudge that just shouldn't really be there. That defensiveness is a much bigger deal to me than your stance on Wake. Unrelated: I assume you come from the same site as House and Wake, right?

What bothers me is how she [Elusive] keeps subtly changing the reasons for asking that question.

Hmm. Good point. I weighed for a second whether or not she could have been expanding rather than changing, but it doesn't really feel natural to me.

We all know by now that Elusive's town meta is to ask questions and tunnel non-responders.

How do you know that? But yeah, she's shown (post 299) she's aware enough of her town meta that it shouldn't be hard to adjust her scum play to fit it.

[artistincompre]

Im so sorry about my lurking, had to leave town for a few days forgot to say so. Please let me catch up

[Egg]

Ok, Anen and Elusive wanted my thoughts on everyone:

ABR - Well, he's voting me for being "sneaky" (what?). Asked tex for thoughts on the game while providing none himself. I tend to scum read ABR whenever I play with him. But his play doesn't impress me. He's done even less than normal here.

Anen- Absolutely hate the change in play. Don't like that he pointed out Dragon's fluff only to later admit he fluffs as well. Like, why even point it out then? Saying there is scum on Gamr and Wake's wagons while ignoring my own which was just as large and he was on definitely stands out. Also dismisses it as a RVS wagon, but then says he doesn't like the company in which case that wagon should have been included in the original statement. Also, ISO is lacking pigeons...

Art - Can't possibly get a read on this.

Dave - Interesting ISO. I see a decent amount of posts full of questions and statements. However, very little of it has anything to do with any reads Dave might have. It's all about playstyle changes, Elusive's questions, and looking for clarification on things. Dave also hasn't changed his vote since a wishy washy maybe this is scum type vote in post 49. A large I was in with Dave just ended (granted I died in October) and I was scum reading TownDave there, but a quick glance at his ISO in that game shows solid stances with use of the words "town" and "scum" even in the early game. Dave just entered my radar as possible scum.

Delta - Seems to be intentionally drawing suspicion his way and stepping on toes (Naked vote on Silver who is very active in this game, "town claim" comment, calling Elusive retarded, saying he won't put in effort). He really doesn't look like his scum self in my other game with him. I'm gonna say he's bad town as of right now.

Dragon - Very fluffy ISO but doesn't seem afraid to put himself out there. Like he has no fear of being scum read. Weak town read.

Elusive - I'll cry if a quick skim of my recent ISO can't tell you my thoughts here.

Flubber- I've had trouble reading him in the past. He posts infrequent short posts with decent points and that seems independent of alignment. I see the exact same thing here. I hate having null reads, but Flubber is one.

Gamr - I voted Gamr because his sporadic RVS came off nervous. Now it looks like he was just having fun with it. I like his play since. Town.

House- He's gonna be a tough one for me. I had him as obvtown in my game with him where he was town. His scum game with me was one where it's hard to use because of certain events. Honestly, I don't see the TownHouse I saw in Fire and Ice. But nothing looks overly scummy. Hell, nothing looked overly scummy in his scum game until he softed a role that wasn't in the game to get the cop lynched, claimed he was town fakeclaiming, and showed dumbtown meta to back it. I dunno. I'm going maybe a step below null with my only reason for a scum read probably being paranoia.

ika - All I see is a vote on Wake, a town read on House, and an ISO full of "Elusive is 100% town". At first, I took this as a mason crumb and then I realized this was an open game. Either he's really that sure he can read Elusive or he's scum who knows she is town and is using a reputation of being able to read her to look good. Nothing in his ISO looks deceptive though and I'd like to see more from him. Very weak town. This read could change.

King - Hasn't done anything except jump on TSO. Answering he likes SK stands out, but I don't know what to make of it. Need to see more before I commit to a read here. Call him slightly scummier than my null pile I guess.

Mik - Seems logical. Town.

Nik - I remember him doing more in the past. However, he was exactly the same way as town in APBro and stopped my kill there effectively ending what could have been the second greatest comeback in the history of ever (behind Twinkies of course) after my scumbuddies were modkilled and lynched on Day 1. Fucker. Town though.

Shiro - ISO feels relaxed. Nothing stands out as scummy. Slight town read.

Silver - I don't know. The entire ISO looks pretty damn town with the exception of the illogical freakout and leap in logic at me considering there was a scum possibility in one of his actions and trying to determine whether it was or not. But when I say EVERYTHING else looks town, I mean everything. So I'm kind of conflicted. Weak town, I guess?

TSO - I don't get it. His early game is usually very active and very strong. He has the Anen scum read, but I don't see the typical bulldog grip TSO usually has on his early scum reads (Cho in AAA, csar in Masquarade). Fuck, I just realized those were both scum games of his. LMAO. I dunno. Maybe it's good that he doesn't look like himself then. Weak town.

Tex- Post 95 is the only one of his I don't find myself agreeing with and following his logic on. Everything else looks fine. I don't understand peoples' issues with Tex. Town.

Wake- Wake, like House, will be hard for me. In a past game, I found myself reading him as scum when he used one playstyle and town on another (he changed midgame). I came to the conclusion that I was misreading styles as being alignment indicative. I'm worried here because he seems to be using the one that I saw as town in his most recent posts and he could easily do that as scum. This is all just paranoia though. I'd put him on the same level as House as far as a read.

Town to Scum:
Gamr
Delta
Mik
Nik
Shiro
Tex
TSO
Dragon
Silver
Ika
Flubber
Art
King
House
Wake
ABR
Anen
Dave
Elusive

[Albert B. Rampage]

I played with you when you were scum in AP bros, remember? I caught you.

[SilverWolf]

I think elusive is a much easier target then you House and Egg is going for her pretty strong and Flubber to a lesser extent. Just something to take note of. I don't think her quiz is that useful and is a distraction but she doesn't seem all that scummy for it. I'd be interested to see what ika says about it since he knows her.

Two questions:
1. Are all "easy" targets town?
2. Why is Elusive's quiz a useless and town motivated distraction rather than a way for scum to look busy?

1. No
2. Because she does this as town. It's her thing. I totally agree it's a distraction and even an annoyance but I'm not going to judge it scummy unless she does absolutely nothing with the answers to tell us who is scum out of taking that quiz, or doesn't use it to scumhunt. Then a scumread for trying to look busy is fully justified. This is a wait and see for me right now.

Silver, I hadn't decided anything at that point. Let's look at my post:

Silver, what I'm getting at is

I'm not sure

I buy that

you found it scummy

so much as

you thought "hey, this sounds good"

or maybe even

made a mistake in seeing scumminess that just isn't there

.

See the italics. If I was sure, I'd have voted you right then and there. Now I've also bolded the three possibilities. Two of them are likely to be town where the other is likely to be scum. At most, it's a slight concern. You blow up and say I'm misrepping you, and vote me on some seemingly OMGUS grudge that just shouldn't really be there. That defensiveness is a much bigger deal to me than your stance on Wake. Unrelated: I assume you come from the same site as House and Wake, right?

Yes, Wake, House, and I all come from the same site. Klingocelt and dragonspawn also. If you look at that sentence, it looks like you don't buy my argument that I found Wake's RVS comments scummy and you insinuated I may have been thinking this looks like a good way to paint Wake as scum or that I was seeing scumminess that wasn't there. I'm fully willing to accept that if I hadn't already explained to you twice now why I was scumreading that. It should of been enough for you to determine my motivation one way or another. Your continued misrepresentation of what I was saying to you, added to the fact that you were scumreading and voting for Wake off a non-scummy post, it was worth a vote due to conflicting reads and inconsistencies. Nowhere was I OMGUSing grudge voting you nor was I being defensive. I noticed something scummy and voted for you to see how you would explain it and react to it.

That said, I get what you were trying to do and I may have misunderstood your motivation for doing it. We'll see.