Micro 442: Twin Trap Game Over

[BBmolla]

What's so good about 242?

[BBmolla]

Oh fuck benice looks pretty town in ISO

I have no fucking idea

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 4.01

No votes cast

Not Voting: BBmolla, Fresh, benice

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-03-01 13:20:55)

[Fresh]

WIFOM ahoy, but if I was scum I'd probably have attempted to look more town yesterday because I'd know I'd have to fight for myself in LYLO.

Like, I'm bad, but I'd only quietly sheep like I did as town who actually thinks the game is over. Because if I didnt think it was over I'd have posted more to set myself up better today.

We all have to fight for ourselves today anyway. It doesn't matter if you tried to look more town or not. One bad move and we are toast.

I liked 242 because he made what looks like a deduction that turned out to be true. Now again as I cited prior, that doesn't mean he didn't already have the prior knowledge but I get more of a town deductive reasoning vibe from it.

I made my comments on both your ISOs. I don't think he looks THAT town overall but for the moment I rank him over you. But I don't want to jump to conclusions at the same time.

Also I learned in my last game that I can't just scream "I'm town!" and expect to be believed. I had the game solved in LYLO but was defeated. I really need to get this one right.

[benice]

Hi town buddy.

Ok I'm gonna talk about how I feel about each of you. I'll try to sprinkle in some questions. Tough spot but I'ma do my best.

----
Why Benice is scum: Before Grib flipped, he seemed so positive about him being town. Extra information perhaps? A quite solid kill to try and confuse all of us since we've not expressed much about reads on one another. A great way to potentially steer a mislynch.
Why Benice is town: Day 2 is a strong townread for benice. Promotes discussion, tries to steer us away from Aronis's spamming. Did a day 1 VC analysis which I've seen players both support and deny but to me this is an attempt to hunt the other scum.

Questions for Benice, Do you still feel BBMolla is town after the Aronis flip? Am I automatically scum?

Yep. BB is still town.

Yep. You are the scum.

You didn't even question my case on Lalendra. It didn't even cross your mind. You just went with it, the way you went with the Zymf wagon. And then there's the way you wanted to drag out the Aronis lynch after everyone had already posted.

Lalendra was scummy as fuck, but as I said on D2, if she's not his partner, you are.

[benice]

Zymf

- 5 -

Flubbernugget

, Fresh,

Kaboose, Lalendra,

Aronis

benice - 1 - BBmolla
Fresh - 1 -

Zymf

Kaboose

- 1 - benice

Lalendra - 1 - Grib

Lalendra - 3 - Grib

, BBmolla, Fresh

Grib - 1 - Lalendra

Fresh, you have been on every lynch wagon except for Aronis'. Despite the fact that PoE makes it very clear you are the last, your ISO is also full of hedges, allowing you to avoid making any commitments to your reads:

Ok the self vote thing seems dumb.

I don't like the reaction test thing as an excuse

but it could be easy for both people voting Grib to do it as a safe excuse.

Well I think its both. It is an easy wagon for scum to hop on but I think self voting is 100% antitown in general.

It doesn't mean you are anti-town for sure but its an anti-town thing to do.

If town didn't do anti-town things then we wouldn't have mislynches.

I love this too:

Kaboose had a PR. You wanna protect the PRs. Now he outed being a tracker which

if I understand this mechanic correctly

means he nailed the watcher scum (this of course was not confirmed until after the lynch

but that's what I believe

).

This looks like it was deliberately wedged in there in order to make us think "oh he has no idea what he's talking about, he is obviously not one of the mafia", along with the second bolded phrase as if to strengthen it. Why? If you're town, it's unnecessary filler and an obviously faked town tell.

Then there's the "here's what I think of both of you, and oh yeah, lemme try to convince one of you to vote the other" that you tried to pull off in post 345. So, like, you address BB as "town buddy" and then list off reasons you think he is scum. ??

Ok now, let's address this mess:

Before Grib flipped, he seemed so positive about him being town. Extra information perhaps? A quite solid kill to try and confuse all of us since we've not expressed much about reads on one another. A great way to potentially steer a mislynch.

Your points for why benice is scum are as follows:
1) Had a correct town read.
2) The NK is confusing.

Neither of these are valid scum tells in any way whatsoever.

How about your reasons for BB being scum?

Little interaction. The Vote on Lalendra is worrysome without any sort of reasoning for it. We were incorrect about her flip but I don't appreciate the lack of reasoning. Post 343 looks more like you're trying to look town pointing out how it seems like you're painted to be setup but its also possible you were.

1) Did not post much
2) Did not give reasoning for Lalendra vote.
3) Post 343 is LAMISTy. (?)

BUT despite having, actually, better reasons for BB to be scum, you appeal to the post he made expressing his thoughts about me, in hopes of getting him to vote me.

Based on your posts though, logically, you should be thinking BB is mafia over me, considering your points against him are actually stronger. Yet, you don't, because BB posted just before this little show of yours that he thinks I'm scum. So what do you do? You try to feed that and appeal to him by asking him to give you reasons to push a case on me.

Classic divide and conquer. (As a side note, I also find it interesting that you liked BB's 242 "because it turned out to be true" but decide that having a correct townread means someone is scum. Bit of a double standard there, don't you think?)

BB's push on Aronis plus his obvious hesitation on reading my ISO tells me he's more likely town than you are.

[Fresh]

Ok. Wow there are some wrong things in that entire post and I'll be addressing that in a couple hours after my classes.

[Fresh]

For now, reread my ISO or something. I had my own reasons to vote for both Zymf and Lalendra. YOU are trying to paint it like I did not. Try again.

[benice]

Fresh, none of the points I made about you involve your reasons for anything, and furthermore, I never even implied that you voted without reasons.

And I've gone over your ISO with a fine-toothed comb, as is evident from the post itself. Telling me to "go read it again" is ridiculous. Do you think I'm just going to change my mind because magic? Either you have a rebuttal or you don't.

[Fresh]

You didn't even question my case on Lalendra. It didn't even cross your mind. You just went with it, the way you went with the Zymf wagon. And then there's the way you wanted to drag out the Aronis lynch after everyone had already posted.

Really? Because this sure paints me like I dont have reasons for those lynches. Hence my comment.

[Fresh]

1. Fresh, you have been on every lynch wagon except for Aronis'. Despite the fact that PoE makes it very clear you are the last, your ISO is also full of hedges, allowing you to avoid making any commitments to your reads:

2. Then there's the "here's what I think of both of you, and oh yeah, lemme try to convince one of you to vote the other" that you tried to pull off in post 345. So, like, you address BB as "town buddy" and then list off reasons you think he is scum. ??

3. Ok now, let's address this mess:

Before Grib flipped, he seemed so positive about him being town. Extra information perhaps? A quite solid kill to try and confuse all of us since we've not expressed much about reads on one another. A great way to potentially steer a mislynch.

Your points for why benice is scum are as follows:
1) Had a correct town read.
2) The NK is confusing.

Neither of these are valid scum tells in any way whatsoever.

4. BUT despite having, actually, better reasons for BB to be scum, you appeal to the post he made expressing his thoughts about me, in hopes of getting him to vote me.

5. Based on your posts though, logically, you should be thinking BB is mafia over me, considering your points against him are actually stronger. Yet, you don't, because BB posted just before this little show of yours that he thinks I'm scum. So what do you do? You try to feed that and appeal to him by asking him to give you reasons to push a case on me.

6. (As a side note, I also find it interesting that you liked BB's 242 "because it turned out to be true" but decide that having a correct townread means someone is scum. Bit of a double standard there, don't you think?)

7. BB's push on Aronis plus his obvious hesitation on reading my ISO tells me he's more likely town than you are.

1. Yes. Town mislynch. Often. Because players look scummy. I'm not avoiding commitments. I'm giving honest answers. All your quotes are showing that I'm considering both sides of something but you're purposely avoiding the fact that I had real reasons for voting Zymf and Lalendra. Lets not forget that

you also had intent to hammer Lalendra and provided nothing day 3 other than that

and yet now I am the bad guy because I'm the one that did it. This is why VC is not a true scum detector. I had my reasons stated for voting Lalendra which means I did not need to consider a case you made that didn't even exist on the day she was lynched.

2. Well I'm not scum. So by default one of the two of you are. And with this I can get reactions from each of you to help better make my determination.

3. Why not? I think they are. I've seen it in at least one of the 3 games I played on this site prior.

4. Again, ignoring the fact that I asked BB his thoughts about me as seen when I said

Am I a townread or just not as strong a scumread assuming you can explain your first question.

I clearly want to know how he is reading me as much as I want to know how he's reading you.

5. CLEARLY YOU'RE NOT REALLY READING ANYTHING!

I made my comments on both your ISOs. I don't think he looks THAT town overall but for the moment I rank him over you.

This says I'd vote BBmolla at that post.

Oh fuck benice looks pretty town in ISO

This says BBmolla thinks you're town.

6. That's my mistake because I made that argument as you were the one who posted 242 not Molla. I messed up my ISOs.

7. His hesitation makes him town but mine makes me scum. Bit of a double standard there don't you think?

[benice]

3. Why not? I think they are. I've seen it in at least one of the 3 games I played on this site prior.

So, it's law of mafia theory because you saw it once over the

three

games you have played here.


Grib was obvtown from the moment he started posting, and I stated my read on him in my first real post of the day. He remained a strong townread. It's not like it came out of nowhere. I backed it up with examples and reasoning. I was convinced Lalendra was scum and her trying to last-ditch-effort-lynch grib was hilariously ridiculous to me at that time.

As far as the NK - not sure what your own confusion over the kill has to do with me. He was obvtown. I'm not surprised by it at all. If I'd been killed, then LYLO would be you, BB and grib. That's a pretty easy choice for one of you or BB. Mafia don't want easy choices in LYLO. They want options, which is why your post about how both of us could be scum is suspect to me, because it keeps your options open to hammer whoever gains a vote first, as long as it's not you.

4. Again, ignoring the fact that I asked BB his thoughts about me as seen when I said

Am I a townread or just not as strong a scumread assuming you can explain your first question.

I clearly want to know how he is reading me as much as I want to know how he's reading you.

I don't understand what your point is here, about "ignoring" that you asked BB his thoughts. About you. What does that have to do with anything I posted? The thing you numbered #4 is about your appeal to BB after he posted that he thought I was scum. I don’t even understand what you are saying here.

But, really, my question out of this is why you give a crap what BB thinks of YOU? Aren't you more concerned with who is scum? Not what anyone thinks of you? And anyway, if you are scumreading BB more than you are scumreading me, REALLY why do you give a crap what he thinks?

As to your 5, you're the one making vague posts, and I'm not reading anything? Cmon now.

7. His hesitation makes him town but mine makes me scum. Bit of a double standard there don't you think?

What hesitation? I see none from you. I see hedging and biding your time while you watch how we react to you and to each other in order for you to decide how to play it.

I will look over BB's posts again. There's not much there which makes it difficult, so

BB if you could chime in and do some actual work towards this game, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Fresh]

As to your 5, you're the one making vague posts, and I'm not reading anything? Cmon now.

Scum tactic. Someone calls you out on you missing something and you brush it aside and try to project how that person has faults instead.

Good job.

[Fresh]

And something is a scumtell for me it is. You can't just declare to the world with below average photography its not because I feel a certain way about something.

Here's how I feel about the NK. I feel that scum-Benice would have made that kill because of how obvious it was to make today more difficult.

You're trying to get me to put a vote out there. Because you're the one waiting to hammer. I can't believe you're trying to paint it such that "Oh Fresh is having a hard time deciding he must be scum". That's fucking absurd.

I'm trying to engage BBmolla as he asked for questions. Something you did not do at all until an hour ago. Even asking him a question about what his read on me might be can get a reaction. It gives you something to assess. You think your reads are the same 3 days into a game? That's an easy way to lose.

You say hedging I say indecision. I'm honestly laying out there that I'm considering all options while you're apparently more the tunnel-vision type.

I think my decision is getting easier. Perhaps the only thing we can agree on is that some input from BB would be nice.

[BBmolla]

I think Ben is town.

[BBmolla]

(Which in case isn't clear, means Fresh is scum)

I don't really think fresh is trying to find scum. Ben covered a lot of it but I can elaborate in a couple hours.

[Fresh]

You are incorrect about my alignment and my lack of scumhunting but I'll back off and wait for an explanation.

[BBmolla]

I will look over BB's posts again. There's not much there which makes it difficult, so BB if you could chime in and do some actual work towards this game, that would be greatly appreciated.

With this being said, can you elaborate on your townread on me?

[BBmolla]

I do agree with benice that it's odd you clearly had more reason to suspect me, yet called me town buddy.

[Fresh]

There is absolutely nothing to that. You said in 343 something about a town buddy that's all it was.

[BBmolla]

k

[Fresh]

Ben covered a lot of it but I can elaborate in a couple hours.

Still waiting on that elaboration...

@Benice, what do you have to say about 367. Asking about a townread like I did. Or are you gonna double standard that one too?

[benice]

As to your 5, you're the one making vague posts, and I'm not reading anything? Cmon now.

Scum tactic. Someone calls you out on you missing something and you brush it aside and try to project how that person has faults instead.

Good job.

Right. What you're doing is trying to say that I haven't read anything because I misunderstood something that you posted vaguely.

First, you address BBmolla as "town buddy", then make it seem like you want to lynch me and when questioned why your reads do not follow a logical trajectory, you change the story and say that no, you are actually scumreading BBmolla more, and accuse me of not reading anything at all.

Really, now...

And something is a scumtell for me it is. You can't just declare to the world with below average photography its not because I feel a certain way about something.

Ok then.
Explain how having a single correct read is a scum tell.
Explain how you being confused about the night kill is a scum tell.

I don't know what you're going on about photography for, but I'm saying they are not scum tells because they do not exemplify a mafia motivation and not only that but I know I'm town so I know for a fact that it's not.

I feel that scum-Benice would have made that kill because of how obvious it was to make today more difficult.

This is a meta argument. For a player you have zero meta on. You need to be able to explain WHY you think BENICE in particular would make that move and NOT BBmolla or you. Otherwise it's just wifom bullshit.

You're trying to get me to put a vote out there. Because you're the one waiting to hammer. I can't believe you're trying to paint it such that "Oh Fresh is having a hard time deciding he must be scum". That's fucking absurd.

You're the one who is trying to

make it look like

you are having such a hard time deciding anything.

I never once said you were having a hard time deciding. I said you were hedging. Those are two distinctly different observations.

I will look over BB's posts again. There's not much there which makes it difficult, so BB if you could chime in and do some actual work towards this game, that would be greatly appreciated.

With this being said, can you elaborate on your townread on me?

Almost entirely based on your push on Aronis and the fact that you made a judgement and then reassessed it after research. Tells me you were actually interested in evaluating the read. Why bother if you are just playing the last townies against each other? Especially when I have such a strong read on Fresh already? Doesn't make sense from a scum POV and Fresh being scum makes a lot more sense to me than you being scum.

I'm going to go re-read the game and then I will vote, likely sometime Saturday.

[Fresh]

No I do not need to explain the meta-argument because it is NOT a meta argument. Benice could be replaced in this equation by any player who posted the same as you did this game and had the same reads.

You're the one changing my words and reflecting them the way you want. I believe you know who is who in the game. Its as simple as that. I believe you have more information and are just posting to look town when indeed you're scum instead. I am having a hard time deciding because before you actually started playing this day phase, my vote would have been on BBMolla.

And look, you ask why I should care about BBmolla having a town read on him but you don't even make mention of that same fact and instead answer his question. Complete contradiction.

I don't need to wait anymore. BBmolla is town. You are the scum.

Vote: Benice

[Fresh]

Complete slander campaign against me this whole day phase. Unacceptable.