New York 180 (Endgame)

[FA_Q2]

That case is pretty good.

I think we would have eventually settled on FA_Q2 today at some stage, fwiw.

The case is built around a few mentions from pk and that is it. He defende4d others like NJ harder and yet he was town as well. He never eve defended me - just some glancing mentions.


Whatever - lynch me then - I am VT and town is going to lose this game anyway. Continue to let scum select your lynches for you and see where that leads.

[SilverWolf]

OK, but not sure you need to claim yet FA.

[T S O]

But that's specifically the point, FA. He -didn't- harddefend you. Softdefending like that is classic scum-scum interactions.

[Aeronaut]

Catching up

[SilverWolf]

ISOing FA right now and pisskop again

FA's post looks a little AtEish

[Marquis]

either I'm a sucker for AtE or I'm right to be having second thoughts.

bleh.

[Marquis]

an early vt claim too.

that makes me lean a bit back in the opposite direction but am i right to?

[SilverWolf]

Actually, I think scum would want to fake claim something at this point and not VT.

[Marquis]

yeah, what i meant was lean back away from a scumread.

how experienced is fa_q2? you two are from the same site, right?

[SilverWolf]

Yes, and he's probably about the same me offsite-6 or 8 games.

I have more here onsite than him. I've got about 8 or 10 here and I think this is his first outside the newbie queue.

[T S O]

I feel the need to link a game.

[T S O]

VT

I know I'm not as valuable as a PR and prob won't be missed but I'm still town.

sorry my game play still needs work

The game was Newbie 1443. It's a short game. Basically I nailed Baezu-scum on page 2, and nearly got tricked by an early VT claim + AtE, before getting my shit together again and finally pushing home the Baezu lynch d1.

[T S O]

And, yes, before anyone says it, I understand Baezu is a different player. That's some impressive detective work. My point still stands.

[SilverWolf]

Newbie games scum are far more likely to claim VT though.

[FA_Q2]

Actually, I think scum would want to fake claim something at this point and not VT.

Though it hurts my case I would say that is not the case.

To many PR have died - it is doubtful that there are many PR roles left if any. I have a rough idea what PR roles we have remaining and quite frnakly a PR claim would secure a scum read for me as there are virtually none left.

[elusive]

Why are you lurking? Who do you think scum is?

[SilverWolf]

Actually, I think scum would want to fake claim something at this point and not VT.

Though it hurts my case I would say that is not the case.

To many PR have died - it is doubtful that there are many PR roles left if any. I have a rough idea what PR roles we have remaining and quite frnakly a PR claim would secure a scum read for me as there are virtually none left.

Well, what do you think of the fact elusive and NS have soft claimed roles? If you were paying attention, you'd know that happened. Do you believe them or not?

I question all claims at this point because of what's already happened in this game and scum can still try a PR claim and maybe get away with it.

That said, just based on VCA alone, elusive is likely town since Pisskop was voting her for 2 of those vc's on D1.

[SilverWolf]

Actually, Pisskop was on elusive 3 of those vc's D1:

Let's look at his votes:

T S O in RVS, later unvotes

Votes dragon 402, unvotes 770-this could be kind of a distancing thing if dragon was scum

Votes Kitz in 917 jumping on a Kitz wagon started by ABR, this leads me to believe Kitz town

Here he votes elusive 1025 on her scumreads of House, FA, and Wake-soft defending all 3 of them which is noteable and should be looked at as at least one or more could be scum in that group

Here joins the Klingon town wagon 1608 which I'd expect scum to do.

So based on this, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong in this analysis:

-I think Kitz and elusive are more likely to be town because of pisskop voting for elusive all those vc cycles D1 and it doesn't seem like a good idea for scum to bus like that D1 of a Large Normal.

-He joined a wagon on Kitz while also joining one on town Klingoncelt later, leads me to believe Kitz is town-why join a wagon on your scumbuddy D1 and again, joining wagons on town is what scum likes to do.

-dragon vote and unvote could be distancing, I've mostly been townreading dragon but this is noteable at least

-when voting for elusive he soft defends the people she's scumreading by saying her reads are bad-FA, House, Wake-noteable for scum possibly being in this group, I've got a townread on House, scum on Wake and not sure on FA-could go either way, Ozgin I have less of a townread on then I did House but he's not really scummy, Marquis isn't scummy either which is causing me confusion on my Wake read because Wake was obvscum to me due to his play.

I don't even know what this tells us but maybe something?

[SilverWolf]

The only thing noteable about Kitz is the Klingon wagon popped up during and after the Kitz wagon and pisskop jumped off Kitz onto Klingon. This is the only thing undermining my townread of Kitz just a little bit. I don't know if there would be two big wagons on town D1 but it's possible and Kitz isn't really scummy to me.

dragon's wagon (hey that rhymes) was a counter to VF's which just so happened to be a town wagon. Would dragon's wagon also be on town? Would town be wagoned every single time on D1-meaning every town wagon is a counter to another town wagon? So this undermines my dragon townread a little bit and also because pisskop voted and unvoted him later and because he softly defended him as well

Not sure there's enough there to analyze but if all these people are town, that means town was being wagon and counterwagoned on two different occasions D1 and I don't even know how likely that is.

The other wagons are bunk because they all revolved around VF's claim and ABR's lying and NJ's acting scummy so meh.

[SilverWolf]

Actually I don't know if dragon was a counter to VF or VF was a counter to dragon because votes were being put on them both. Like VF would get some, dragon would get one, and that went back and forth for awhile so it was kind of like equal wagons and I have no idea what that means unless there was scum pushing one of them and pisskop never voted VF at all.

Also, NJ was a huge counter wagon to Klingon and they are both town.

That's another example of town being wagon and counter wagoned.

Why were we doing that so much?

I mean VF was scummy in the beginning before he claimed and NJ was scummy all game so maybe that's it.

I don't know.

[Kitz]

Because of how everyone are confused, I have an idea.

About the votes, who are the most reluctant to vote the Town? Who would rather not lynch?
Let's say A & B knows eachothers, so they would not lynch eachothers, but C is an easy lynch target for not being with them while C could vote them both.
So we need to find the A & B point.

The thing we need is a subtle Informative between Scum.

[Cheetory6]

Continue to let scum select your lynches for you and see where that leads.

Yeah no this is probably a good lynch.
While FA is possibly just being a hypocrite, I just think this sentiment is scum bullshit trying to derail a wagon. I could see the angle of someone being demotivated at this point and being like "fuck it whatever", but this is bitter in a way that doesn't make any kind of sense.

I also kind of want to believe that maybe I was on the right track at the start of the game and just got distracted c:

[Cheetory6]

Also, Silver, that analysis is great and all and the sheer effort of it at a point in the game where scum can just coast around makes me lean that you're being genuine here, but I just don't really see what the overall point of it is? Like, I just don't get it.
Is it just for us to trace your train of thought with the analysis you've done? Because it just kind of looks like you end up at "I don't really feel strongly about any of this" if I'm not mistaken?

[Cheetory6]

Also also, I like how FA picks and chooses what he responds to on this last page.
TSO's newbie case against him is pretty bad and if he was legitimately mad at people pushing him, I think he would be pushing back on those points as well. The lack of pushback makes me think he feels awkward trying to directly interact with TSO/wants to make it seem like his points pushing for him aren't as bad as they are.
I think TSO/FA as scummates would kind of make sense.

[SilverWolf]

Cheetory-I put that up there looking for feedback and discussion. I did draw some conclusions with it but would like other's thoughts as well.

I'd like FA to respond to what is on this page-he doesn't get online until late and may not have seen it all yet.

@FA-Please give us your reads including your current scumreads.