You Could Be Anyone III GAME OVER

[PeregrineV]

Requesting extra votes for Sky_Paladin.

[Fresh]

Requesting a reason why.

[PeregrineV]

Requesting a reason why.

The top 4 current wagons suck.

[inte]

Requesting a reason why.

The top 4 current wagons suck.

i agree, but maybe my prejudice leads me to believe that this post is motivated.

[PeregrineV]

Requesting a reason why.

The top 4 current wagons suck.

i agree, but maybe my prejudice leads me to believe that this post is motivated.

Motivated by the fact I don't want to vote for any of those people?

Or something darker and more sinister?

[inte]

hmm

[Fresh]

At least one person on every one of your top 4 wagons provided a reason for why they're on it. Its fine that you disagree but you're giving us nothing. You should be more town or maybe end up a wagon yourself.

[PeregrineV]

At least one person on every one of your top 4 wagons provided a reason for why they're on it. Its fine that you disagree but you're giving us nothing. You should be more town or maybe end up a wagon yourself.

I'm giving a request to vote Sky Paladin.

What are you requesting?

[Fresh]

Please see 651.

Footnote: Just saying the wagons suck tells us why you're not voting them. It says nothing whatsoever to the tune of why you're voting Sky no matter what you think.

[Garmr]

Random thoughts from the past couple of pages that are in the mind of the seductive but hated genius garmr.

Does anyone actually have a real reason to town read ank? If not more votes on this wagon.

MonkeyMan576 and Boonskiies: scumbuddies? It certainly looks a bit like it, but it's too early to call at this point.

I don't see anything connecting the two can you elaborate.




Sky paladin hasn't really done to much alignment indicative. I disagree with all his stance (boon,alive chiro) but that really isn't scummy in itself. I would like to know his stances on other players outside of the two he is scum reading.

@mod
Also can we have a vote for the style of the lynch for example I choose Erotic asphyxiation

[StrangerCoug]

MonkeyMan576 and Boonskiies: scumbuddies? It certainly looks a bit like it, but it's too early to call at this point.

I don't see anything connecting the two can you elaborate.

That's a lot of the reason for the "too early to call" comment. Both sides of their argument look contrived to me. Whether it's a crossbus is inconclusive but I'm about 90% sure on at least one of them being scum.

[Ankamius]

Requesting extra votes for Sky_Paladin.

Requesting a reason why.

Requesting a reason why.

The top 4 current wagons suck.

That's a non-answer, PV.

I'm curious to know your reasons too.

[ZZZX]

Does anyone actually have a real reason to town read ank? If not more votes on this wagon.

Not townreading /=/ scum reading

[Garmr]

Does anyone actually have a real reason to town read ank? If not more votes on this wagon.

Not townreading /=/ scum reading

Ok I presented my case why his scum can you give me a counter argument as to why the case is wrong. If not vote ank.

[Sky_Paladin]

Here we go, sorry for the delay. There's just not enough coffee in the world sometimes.

This started out as an ISO of the votes on SC, but by the time it was half done, the wagon had shifted to Boon. So I started again and this time I noticed some names changing around more than expected, so...

Quote wall of vote tallies

Spoiler:

March 20:

hi im Yakko (5): Fresh, StrangerCoug, MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive
Pine (2): _Q2, I Am Innocent
4burner (1): Pine
PeregrineV (1): Aunt Jemina
_Q2 (1): 4burner
Aunt Jemina (1): PeregrineV
Jaqen Hghar (1): T S O
Elyse (1): Garmr
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko
massive (1): ZZZX
T S O (1): inte

March 21

hi im Yakko (6): Fresh, StrangerCoug, MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive, PeregrineV
Elyse (3): Garmr, Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
4burner (1): Pine
Pine (1): _Q2
_Q2 (1): 4burner
alivechihiro (1): Boonskiies
Boonskiies (1): Elyse
Jaqen Hghar (1): T S O
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko
massive (1): ZZZX
T S O (1): inte

March 23

hi im Yakko (4): MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive, PeregrineV
StrangerCoug (3): DeltaWave, Fresh, Boonskiies
Elyse (3): Garmr, Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
Garmr (1): T S O
4burner (1): Pine
Pine (1): _Q2
_Q2 (1): 4burner
Boonskiies (1): Elyse
Fresh (1): StrangerCoug
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko
massive (1): ZZZX
T S O (1): inte

March 25

StrangerCoug (5): DeltaWave, Fresh, Boonskiies, PeregrineV, Ankamius
I Am Innocent (3): ZZZX, Jaqen Hghar, massive
Elyse (3): Garmr, Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
hi im Yakko (2): MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro
inte (1): StrangerCoug
4burner (1): Pine
T S O (1): inte
ZZZX (1): T S O
Boonskiies (1): Elyse
Ankamius (1): 4burner
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko

March 29

StrangerCoug (5): DeltaWave, Fresh, Ankamius, Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576
Boonskiies (3): Elyse, T S O, StrangerCoug
Elyse (2): Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
Sky_Paladin (2): Pine, PeregrineV
I Am Innocent (1): massive
alivechihiro (1): Jaqen Hghar
T S O (1): inte
hi im Yakko (1): alivechihiro
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1): Klingoncelt
Ankamius (1): Garmr

March 30

StrangerCoug (5): DeltaWave, Fresh, Ankamius, Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576
Boonskiies (3): Elyse, T S O, StrangerCoug
Elyse (2): Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
Sky_Paladin (2): Kthxbye, PeregrineV
I Am Innocent (1): massive
alivechihiro (1): Jaqen Hghar
T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1): Klingoncelt
Jaqen Hghar (1): alivechihiro
Ankamius (1): Garmr
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko

April 1

Boonskiies (6): Elyse, T S O, StrangerCoug, Aunt Jemina, Ankamius, MonkeyMan576
alivechihiro (2): Jaqen Hghar, Sky_Paladin
Jaqen Hghar (2): alivechihiro, DeltaWave
MonkeyMan576 (2): hi im Yakko, Boonskiies
I Am Innocent (1): massive
T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1): Klingoncelt
StrangerCoug (1): Fresh
Ankamius (1): Garmr
Elyse (1): I Am Innocent
Sky_Paladin (1): PeregrineV

Yakko bandwagon: Fresh, StrangerCoug, MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive, PeregrineV
Strange bandwagon: DeltaWave, Fresh, Ankamius, Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576
Boon bandwagon: Elyse, T S O, StrangerCoug, Aunt Jemina, Ankamius, MonkeyMan576

There's a couple of names there that appear twice, but Monkey is the only one that jumped on all the wagons at some point. That questions the integrity of his vote. Let me go have a look at all of them.

Vote/ISO analysis

Spoiler:

#6
Vote alivechihiro in rvs. Relevant because interactions between chihiro/monkey do exist and scum often rvs vote a buddy.

#47
Vote ZZZKs in rvs because 'insisting people vote in rvs is silly'.

#135
Vote Yakko over 100% scum read on Elyse and 4Burner/Sky.

This interesting quote in 242 that may come back to haunt Monkey:

You should be prepared to back up any statement you make in a mafia game weather or not it is a joke.

It was in response to Fresh's 200,

Half the players in this game are scum.

which when I read it looked straight forward as 'half of the players playing right now are playing like scum', and I have no issue with it.

When challenged by TSO in 244, MM repeats with "It is true, if it's a joke, just say it was a joke and move on. Don't attack the people asking questions." in 245.

He then asks for a second fruition of the Yakko wagon in 371. Fresh says 'no', MM asks why, "What is town about him?" in 381. In 408, 410, 412 continues with this general point.

However...

When I questioned MM about

alivechihiro's vote

on the Yakko wagon, things come unstuck.

In 426, Monkey agrees that chihiro's vote for Yakko and failing to vote for Jaqen is inconsistent with her lynch all liars policy approach. I think it's strange. I think any town-minded player would at this point re-evaluate their vote and say "OK but I still think Yakko is scum" or "hmm okay you are right, voting chihiro". Monkey just left it on the table, and I don't like that.

Shortly after this, Monkey is back on the Yakko character assassination train with 426 "Yakko is a much better vote than Boon, he's actually being scummy" and 453, "What is VI about wanting to lynch Yakko?". So we should assume from this exchange that Monkey 'still thinks Yakko is scum' and doesn't consider inconsistent voting reasons as compelling.

Except...

In 492, Monkey votes StrangeCoug specifically for being 'a bit contradictive'. If this is the case, where was the alivechihiro vote? The vote appears to be specifically in response to Garmr's 468 where Garmr sheeps Boon on SC over:

H acknowledges that he knows boon is a vi and votes him then continues to say oh boons flip won't give us info on monkey man. That makes me feel like he is already trying to line up lynches and has knowledge of how the flips will go.

This post itself appears to be in response to SC's vote on Boon in 452, which included:

I am additionally going to put an IGMEOY: MonkeyMan576 because I feel his insistence on lynching Yakko is inconsistent with how strongly he seems to feel he's actually scum. However, I don't think Boonskiies' flip will say anything about MM either way because I know the latter has acted VI in the past.

but was ultimately driven by Boon's vote on Yakko because

his Yakko vote following your post has me sold. The wagon is way too easy to be town-driven at this point.

(The players on Yakko at this point in time are Fresh, StrangerCoug, MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive, PeregrineV, and Boon. Several of these (Peregrine/Fresh/Boon/Monkey) then appear on the Coug wagon very quickly).

So dismantling this, we can see that the reason for Monkey's vote was partly motivated by SC's vote on Boon, and partly motivated because fear of Boon's flip giving alignment info out on Monkey. Missing from Monkey's vote was an explanation of why the SC vote seemed much better than the player he had been tunneling since the beginning of the game. That's a fairly stirring disconnect and I don't think town would miss it - Monkey has twice, in critical locations, failed to explain why he was not voting somebody that he obviously ought to have.

I feel at this point Monkey's vote is quite complicated and I'm struggling to see how it is a genuine "I feel that SC is actually scum" vote. It looks to me more like a response to the Boon pressure vote, and that is alarming because Monkey will a little later on sheep a vote on Boon.

Back to Monkey -
Shot at SC in 517 for I'm not really sure. SC commented that Monkey had a VI meta. Unnecessarily reactive.

There's a couple of fairly scum-feeling question/dodge/petty comments posts. Some points:
Monkey in 520 objects to Elyse's questioning of the SC wagon.

These two posts, one after the other, actually contradict each other:
522 "I don't find the wagon scummy, so I don't think there's a lot of scum on the wagon."
527 "In my experience most wagons have at least one scum on them, regardless if they are town or scum wagons."

Then in 588 Monkey votes Boon because he's self voted twice.
Again: Failed to explain moving away from SC vote. Failed to evaluate SC/Boon against Yakko.
It's compelling because in 605 is again back to the Yakko hate.

In 600/610 there's some distancing going on with Boon, Boon countervotes.

Main points:

Fails to apply logical conclusions to his own statements.
Voting on SC because SC is being 'inconsistent' yet acknowledges alivechihiro was inconsistent and doesn't evaluate Yakko vs chihiro.
Seems to 'forget' his scum reads - hops from wagon to wagon rather than considering his supposed reads. Leads me to the conclusion that his reads are fabricated on Yakko/SC.
Voting on Boon despite sheeping Boon on SC appear to be distancing tactics.

Overall I think there's a very strong likelihood that Monkeyman has been operating with a scum agenda in mind.

UNVOTE: alivechihiro
VOTE: MonkeyMan

I think this probably correlates to scum!Boon as well, but I haven't iso'd him yet so I'll vote here and reflect on it.

[Boonskiies]

I'll vote Monkey. Sure. I was there earlier. Think I'd bus this pointlessly Day 1?

VOTE: Monkey

[MonkeyMan576]

You're wrong about me being scum, but you're right, it is pointless to lynch town, unless you're scum.

[Jaqen Hghar]

A man will be V/LA through the weekend

[I Am Innocent]

I have not forgotten about this game, and I too am not thrilled with the wagons at this point. I'm considering strongly a move to Alives wagon, but elyse and massive still bother me greatly.

Elyse's top 4 are all differing degrees of town reads for me right now, so really there is nothing that has swayed my read from earlier.

And massive, please everyone ISO this scum. His omgus against me to that crap 'I usually pick a town to sheep D1'. Please!

Massive, care to produce a game or two where uve done that as town?

Klingon is prob my 3rd scum read, followed by alive. One of these four is your best lynch for the day.

SC, monkey I go back and forth on, right now I don't think I'm thrilled about joining those wagons.

[T S O]

VOTE: Elyse

IAI, feel like running this thing up?

[StrangerCoug]

Think I'd bus this pointlessly Day 1?

But of course What else does squirming scum do?

[inte]

this games all over the place and I don't like any of the viable wagons at this point, besides maybe ichrio

[massive]

Massive, care to produce a game or two where uve done that as town?

I don't play a lot of big games because of this self-knowledge but Serum and Steel II is probably a good example. In fact, besides this one, that's the only other large game I've played since coming back. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58358

Do you want to answer my question now?

[jasonT1981]

Also can we have a vote for the style of the lynch for example I choose Erotic asphyxiation

lol I will consider it. Random ways of killings on lynch sound fun. However, it will have to make sure that it is clear they were lynched.

[jasonT1981]

Official Vote Count

Boonskiies

(5): Elyse, StrangerCoug, Aunt Jemina, Ankamius, MonkeyMan576

MonkeyMan576

(3): hi im Yakko, Sky_Paladin, Boonskiies

Jaqen Hghar

(2): alivechihiro, DeltaWave

Elyse

(2): I Am Innocent, T S O

I Am Innocent

(1): massive

alivechihiro

(1): Jaqen Hghar

T S O

(1): inte

Klingoncelt

(1): ZZZX

ZZZX

(1): Klingoncelt

StrangerCoug

(1): Fresh

Ankamius

(1): Garmr

Sky_Paladin

(1): PeregrineV

Not Voting

(1): Kthxbye

Day 1 Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-06 15:41:56)
With 21 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.