New York 180 (Endgame)

[Ozgin]

@Ozgin: Have you been fighting with Shinobi?

No. I had a slight conflict with Shinobi but it was in a lousy bit of rage.

Remember what happened the 4 other lynches? "Me or another".

ERMAGUD IT REPETZ

This is 100% accurate to my feelings for the TSO/Marquis fight. However, I'm pretty convinced that TSO is serial killer.

Spoiler: TSO is the SK

Oh, you claimed an unverifiable role which happens to have the same powers as a Serial Killer?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........

So this post made me question whether or no TSO could actually be the SK or not, and whether or not his vig claim is legitimate. Because it is perfectly valid to debate whether or not a player is a Town Vigilante or a Serial Killer trying to leash himself as a vigilante.

Actually, the point about the vig is completely relevant - our vig had "presumably" shot scum on night 1, which shows they are a competent player and shouldn't have to be limited to doing the policy work of the town.

The MathBlade kill was also optimal last night, because ABR did not retract his claim - thus, the vig has yet to really slip up, reinforcing my point.

Interesting how he chooses a quote that happened way after the next four in this "wall of crumbs." This isn't a crumb, this is him saying "I'm about to claim vigilante because I've been setting this up for a while."

if MathBlade is Vengeful then why did ABR track her to Ellie? How has Math concluded that ABR has gone from 100% scum to town?

This has absolutely nothing to do with vigilantes. Seriously, how on earth is this a crumb to anything? It's just drawing unnecessary attention to MathBlade. Maybe this is where you started to get the bright idea to set up these next few quotes...

Can we all just talk about MathBlade's what-the-fuck stance for a bit?

This is in no way a crumb for a vig claim. This is, in my opinion, his SK-slip in this series of quotes. He thinks this is a crumb for him being vigilante because in 2 posts (next quote) he's going to set himself up to claim vig and shoot Math. However, this post, in and of itself, is just a gateway into attacking MathBlade/building town hate on MathBlade. This literally reads to me, "Can we all just start hating MathBlade so when I fakeclaim vigilante I won't get yelled at for killing her?

TSO you said you were townreading ABR a while ago.
Why are you voting him over Math if you think I'm right? :/.

Because either he dies from vig or lynch and the vig could do better than shooting him.

This is where he, very conveniently, is setting himself up to claim vig soon after. Notice how he doesn't even remotely acknowledge the likelihood of the scum team killing Math or even the SK.

So, let's get this straight: ABR got a result last night, which wasn't you, as town, and has decided to lie yet again... ?

Yep However when I explain it plainly and you do but attack what is clear it is frustrating.

ABR even said so.

The vig could do better and shoot you as ABR is town.

The vig is never going to shoot me - it's likely the vig is going to shoot you. If I were the vig, I'd already have the action sent.

This quote just sounds like he's setting himself up to claim vig the next day or two. I mean, this is screaming "Hey look, the vig is going to shoot MathBlade tonight!" *Stabs MathBlade* "See look! I'm the vig, here's where I admitted it!" Also, note that this is just 7 posts after the last post he quoted, where he's conveniently doing the same kind of setting up for a vig claim.

Crumbs. Last one especially relevant.

This whole things feels like TSO is trying to set himself up at the vig very conveniently. I think it's just as likely that TSO is the SK, and planned on killing MathBlade and using that kill as a set-up to try to conf-town himself. I believe he picked MathBlade because she was generally disliked, so he would easily be able to give some bullshit excuse when he claims vigilante so he doesn't get too much friction for it (and thanks to Aeronaut, that plan isn't working).

There were three kills in this game n1.
We have a Vig who shot scum n1.
I claimed the vig.
I showed my motivation for the n1 shot.
Ergo, I am town.

Just because you disagree with one of my shots, and you're retrospectively using that shot's townflip to argue your point, doesn't make me scum. It doesn't make me anywhere in the realm of scum. I have explained why I shot MathBlade. You disagree. Quite honestly, I couldn't give a fuck.

This is TSO getting really angry when his scheme to make MathBlade look like shit before his vig-claim set up isn't working. Also, there's nothing at all to say that you killing pisskop makes you town. You could have gotten lucky. Or, the real vig could have shot pisskop and you could have shot one of the other 2 people who died N1 and are just conveniently claiming that your shot was the one on the scum.

Stop your fucking set-up spec. Even if you think you know it, speculating on it has no benefit to anyone if you are town.

If you're scum, keep on speculating.

Lastly, this is the quote that basically says "Nobody go into setup spec because you'll then in turn be questioning me and I don't like suspicion!" I normally would agree that setup-spec is a bad reason for a scum read or a sk-read, but at this stage of the game it gets a little silly to think there are actually this many PRs.

[Shinobi]

Ozgin, half of that analysis is based on TSO not crumbing and then the other half is crumbing anyway.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin, half of that analysis is based on TSO not crumbing and then the other half is crumbing anyway.

How so?

My point is that his "crumbs" were either not crumbs at all, or carefully orchestrated so he could fake claim. Sorry if that message didn't quite get across.

[goodmorning]

Wait, goodmorning, walk me through your thought process there?

You didn't want to get me in a PT if you thought I was scum so you could firm up your read and then push it? Instead, you picked your townreads, and then with them and you in the PT you did ???

Mainly I've been playing it as a Friendly Neighbour. The chatting is just a bonus.

I'm thinking the neighborizing thing again. Is it possible for a fake claim from the scum where their buddies verifies it? I'm not sure how likely that is but it makes me wonder.

It's probably possible.
Not very good strategy though.

[SilverWolf]

Still V/LA, just wanted to confirm GM neighborized me and the neighbourhood opened D5.

Ozgin-The SK thing will resolve itself tomorrow. Try not to spend too much of what time we have left fighting about it today.

Also, welcome back neighbor!!

See you guys in a couple days, I'll try to pop in before then if I can.

[Shinobi]

Ozgin, half of that analysis is based on TSO not crumbing and then the other half is crumbing anyway.

How so?

My point is that his "crumbs" were either not crumbs at all, or carefully orchestrated so he could fake claim. Sorry if that message didn't quite get across.

His crumbs not being crumbs and then other crumbs actually being crumbs just means that you know he crumbed. Great. Now what? Why is it a fakeclaim and not him actually being the vigi?

There's the question you have to answer. Is his overall behavior congruent with him being a vigilante or not and why? Three posts isn't enough. He could have crumbed vigi as either the actual vigi or the serial killer, and the quotes you're presenting aren't enough evidence to prove his alignment otherwise.

[Cheetory6]

If TSO isn't mafia I don't want to lynch him. IDGAF if he's town or SK at this point, functionally, we have a full scumteam-minus-one at least to take care of. Unless someone wants to pitch TSO being a part of a multiball scumteam [which would be ballsy as fuck for him to make a claim for if a scummate flipped] or him being bulletproof mafia running a risky CC gambit, I'm really not interested and I honestly just kind of find both scenarios hard to believe. And while I find him generally pretty sketchy, I just don't really like the people jumping at him right now and him being claimed means that he can't just go around shooting obvtown and then saying "wups sorry guys made a bad call". If someone like Silver or Kitz dies without flipping scum and he claims the shot, we can string him the fuck up. I don't think he'd do that even if he is scum though so woopty. He's at least not on the mafia faction that we know exists via the kills and the lack of counter claim. Anyone pushing this right now needs to get a grip and start hunting for the scumteam that actually fucking matters at this point.

I'm getting tired of people trying to push dumb counterwagon options and I guess I can see Marquis being resigned scum who knows he can't win against a 1v1 with TSO.

@TSO

, tell me why Shinobi isn't scum.

[Cheetory6]

If we're rolling with the fact that scum has a doctor and/or a rolecop, then why are we voting the guy that was tracked nowhere?

Are we believing ABR's results now?
That's also assuming that one of the roles isn't a godfather or a ninja or some other kind of passive role.
Why are you still voting for goodmorning? Are you really rolling with her being scum still? Why?

[elusive]

So SW are you saying Ozgin is also a neighbor?

[Shinobi]

If we're rolling with the fact that scum has a doctor and/or a rolecop, then why are we voting the guy that was tracked nowhere?

Are we believing ABR's results now?
That's also assuming that one of the roles isn't a godfather or a ninja or some other kind of passive role.
Why are you still voting for goodmorning? Are you really rolling with her being scum still? Why?

There's no reason not to believe ABR's results when he reclaimed tracker. He claimed he checked me regardless of the role he was claiming. Ofc there could be ninja/godfather, but there's still a pair of roles that we think are likely considering the gamestate so why would you intentionally lynch suboptimally when you could potentially clear someone as town?

Even if ABR messed up, there's no reason to write off his checks because he has 0 reason to lie about them. The only motivation he had otherwise was getting VF lynched.

I'm still on the fence about GM.

[Cheetory6]

there's no reason to write off his checks

Yeah. Especially his MathBlade guilty.

[Shinobi]

So SW are you saying Ozgin is also a neighbor?

Good to know you still cba to explain why you're voting me.

Pedit: Mathblade confirmed that he was a tracker so I don't know why you're rolling your eyes.

[Cheetory6]

Like, I wouldn't make a big deal out of this if you weren't using it as a god damn shield every time someone gets on your case.
If you're on the fence about GM why are you still voting her? Do you have no decent scumreads right now?

P-Edit: ABR said he tracked MathBlade to Ellie the night she died? Something we know 100% is a lie given that she was vengeful and couldn't target people?

[Shinobi]

Ofc I'm using it as a shield. I tried talking rationally to people and it's not fucking working.

I can come up with reasons to think of GM as either alignment but none of them are good in terms of thinking of her as possibly being town.
Elusive isn't even bothering to explain why she's voting me.
Aeronaut is still reaching to try and lynch our claimed vigi while directing his shot.

These are my scumreads right now. I say I'm on the fence about GM but if you put a gun to my head, I'd say she was scum.

If you want to believe that all of ABR's checks are fake anyway, go ahead. I genuinely hope I get lynched with two likely scum roles that have extra visits with a tracker check on me.

[elusive]

Actually we can trust 0 of what ABR said.

[elusive]

Considering Shinobi that a look at your ISO has you wanting to kill people without much reasoning left and right (kitz, aeronaut) - you know without any cases makes me less sympathetic to you overall. You've wanted people dead because it would be "fun" - not really a town mindset.

How about you do a reads list or something concrete on your thoughts on all the players still alive that isn't jumping back and forth and all over the place?

[Shinobi]

Already explained that I wasn't actually killing people for "fun."

Nice try though.

I've explained the majority of my reads over the course of today, so you have no real excuse for not knowing what they are. Not like it mattered to you though, considering you voted me because I said something to GM that you didn't even bother mentioning at all which you never bothered to explain in the first place.

[elusive]

lol, explain it real slow buddy. can you explain it again?

In which post (link) have you experienced the majority of your reads? Or quote them, will you? Use the Spoiler feature, live a little on the edge.

[T S O]

Ozgin returns to the game; quotes posts where I show my thought process for my kills, tells us these aren't crumbs, quotes the actual crumbs and says that, yes, these are crumbs, but I could still be the SK, because ???

[T S O]

Fuck me, the quality of play is literally atrocious if you guys are town.

We have Ozgin, who's saying "hey thats not a crumb neither is that but that is you crumbing but maybe youre crumbing as sk!!!", where he took a gigantic post to come to the conclusion that, yes, I crumbed. That's it. That was the sum total of the conclusion.
We have Aeronaut, who's saying "hey i think you're scum but if you're not scum kill this person pls" because if I was scum, I'd definitely kill them, instead of, you know, someone who's actually a threat to me.

Etcetera.

[Shinobi]

I never made a giant post explaining my reads. I've been giving reads throughout today and there's no reason for you to not be able to see them.

I've already noted that I thought Marquis/TSO was likely TvT.
I've said that I thought Kitz was town because I think he reads were so off-the-wall that scum wouldn't actually dare to have them.
I've fought with GM over the course of today.
I just explained why I think Aero is scum, and I've been asking about him throughout most of today anyway.

The only ones you might have an excuse to not know about are my reads on you/SilverWolf, and I think SilverWolf is town. It does seem like she's trying to figure things out with her posting and that she's trying to get a look at the big picture rather than get into fights with other players.

If you couldn't see them before, you can now.

[Shinobi]

Ozgin returns to the game; quotes posts where I show my thought process for my kills, tells us these aren't crumbs, quotes the actual crumbs and says that, yes, these are crumbs, but I could still be the SK, because ???

lol I already explained this.

[T S O]

I know, Shinobi, but I need to release my annoyance somehow.

[Shinobi]

I can't help but feel I'm partially to blame for starting this crusade against you on day 1.

I think karma's catching up to me right now though.

[T S O]

It's a general paranoia thing, don't blame yourself.