Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[BBmolla]

Mina any particular reason you're not interacting with me

Because you look like your town self, so you're not interesting to me. Sorry! <3

Solid, I figured but I wanted to confirm

[BipolarChemist]

Hey y'all! I haven't caught up in the past couple pages, I'm just popping in to say I'm uber busy with work/other obligations! I will be back to making my walls tomorrow, I promise! (Sorry for dodgy post) (sorry for saying sorry) (sorry for that one too) D:

[Alchemist21]

Quil, Mina, Patrick

Ok, I think I can see that given your posts so far.

@BBMolla, follow up to this, have you tried to read BPC since you found out he wasn't DV?

[BBmolla]

I can't read wallposters

Cause I don't read wallposts

[Patrick]

Need more input: ETL and especially serrapaladin

[zoraster]

Day 1

Alchemist21 ( 3 )

Patrick

Quilford

BBMolla

[/color]

(L - 2 )

BBMolla ( 1 )

EspeciallyTheLies

[/color]

(L - 4 )

BipolarChemist ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

EspeciallyTheLies ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

Mina ( 1 )

BipolarChemist

[/color]

(L - 4 )

Ms Marangal ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

Patrick ( 1 )

Ms Marangal

[/color]

(L - 4 )

Quilford ( 1 )

Alchemist21

[/color]

(L - 4 )

Serrapaladin ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

No Lynch ( 0 )

Not Voting ( 2 )

Serrapaladin Mina

Total Votes ( 9 )

Needed to Lynch [ 5 ]

Deadline: April 14th at 20:00 EDT
(expired on 2015-04-14 20:00:00)

[serrapaladin]

Hi. Yes. I'm here. Lemme just grab a coffee and I'll get into this.

[serrapaladin]

A few things to follow up on before I catch up:

I've never played with anyone on your team before

All three of my team disagree... :/

"Than normal" there meant what I expect from the average punter in the first few hours of a mafia game, not what is normal for you.

But the average 9p game also doesn't get to 5 or 6 pages in a few hours. The suggestion that the first pages should be treated differently because they happened quickly is nonsense in light of the general speed of f2f, marathon, and chat room games. I don't like this as a defence of BPC.

[serrapaladin]

Mara, why, in your own words? (p-edit: lol)

If Quilford were scum, then 1) he would barely be posting, and 2) what he would post would be a lot less carefree and relaxed. My team has seen him as scum. He's town unless he took a level in Machiavelli over the summer. (But frankly, he just reads as pretty genuine anyway.)

I'm worried that you think Quil with Reck and UT on his team would be readable by activity alone. I presume that you're right, but I think you're being too simplistic and disregarding context.

serras response to me was highly favorable

Could you walk me through your train of thought here? What would you have expected from me as scum?

BPC looks better with his walls, although Egg warns that as scum he is often townread just for his style. I like that he pressures people on unanswered questions.

We're pretty much unanimous on alchemist-scum. All of his defence looks too safe and he lacks a proper emotional response to being unfairly attacked. It also feels like he's jumping from attacker to attacker to start a wagon on one of them.

I really like one of the things BPC was hinting at, which is that Mina is getting opinions from her team-mates, but failing to integrate them with her own.

Oh, serrapaladin, Regfan wants to know why you didn't vote in your first post despite having several scumreads.

I hadn't made up my mind over which vote I preferred.

@mara: explain your alch read?

I'm not sure she's right, but I do like mara going entirely against the grain.

VOTE: Alchemist (L-1)

[Mina]

Mara, why, in your own words? (p-edit: lol)

If Quilford were scum, then 1) he would barely be posting, and 2) what he would post would be a lot less carefree and relaxed. My team has seen him as scum. He's town unless he took a level in Machiavelli over the summer. (But frankly, he just reads as pretty genuine anyway.)

I'm worried that you think Quil with Reck and UT on his team would be readable by activity alone. I presume that you're right, but I think you're being too simplistic and disregarding context.

serras response to me was highly favorable

Could you walk me through your train of thought here? What would you have expected from me as scum?

BPC looks better with his walls, although Egg warns that as scum he is often townread just for his style. I like that he pressures people on unanswered questions.

We're pretty much unanimous on alchemist-scum. All of his defence looks too safe and he lacks a proper emotional response to being unfairly attacked. It also feels like he's jumping from attacker to attacker to start a wagon on one of them.

I really like one of the things BPC was hinting at, which is that Mina is getting opinions from her team-mates, but failing to integrate them with her own.

Oh, serrapaladin, Regfan wants to know why you didn't vote in your first post despite having several scumreads.

I hadn't made up my mind over which vote I preferred.

@mara: explain your alch read?

I'm not sure she's right, but I do like mara going entirely against the grain.

VOTE: Alchemist (L-1)

"I'm not sure she's right" seems a bit hesitant considering you come across as super-willing to lynch Alchemist and put him at L-1 territory.

Also, I hate hate hate hate hate your stance on me, although admittedly, I'm probably a bit biased on this

I'm in the Quilford/Patrick school of being suspected

. If you suspect me, come out and say it, instead of "hmm, that's a VERY INTERESTING POINT against Mina there." Especially, "I presume you're right" on Quilford's activity, but still "not liking it." It's only suspicious if you think I'm wrong or overeager on him.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

shit lots of pages. sorry for absence (it has been site wide). was overwhelmed at work but finished deadline last night/today so I'm back. catching up.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I see an L-1 on this page. someone unvote at least until I can finish reading please.

[Patrick]

But the average 9p game also doesn't get to 5 or 6 pages in a few hours. The suggestion that the first pages should be treated differently because they happened quickly is nonsense in light of the general speed of f2f, marathon, and chat room games. I don't like this as a defence of BPC.

I just don't think he was being especially wishy washy - I'm surprised you found this interesting. I don't get where you think I said that the first 5-6 pages should be treated differently because they happened quickly.

I'm not sure she's right, but I do like mara going entirely against the grain.

This makes me think she's town too. If alchemist flips scum I don't think this was an attempt to bail him out; I think she might have picked molla in that case.

[Patrick]

serras catchup doesn't feel so good to me. Nothing horribly scummy in there but very easy post to make as scum, I think.

[Alchemist21]

Mara, why, in your own words? (p-edit: lol)

If Quilford were scum, then 1) he would barely be posting, and 2) what he would post would be a lot less carefree and relaxed. My team has seen him as scum. He's town unless he took a level in Machiavelli over the summer. (But frankly, he just reads as pretty genuine anyway.)

I'm worried that you think Quil with Reck and UT on his team would be readable by activity alone. I presume that you're right, but I think you're being too simplistic and disregarding context.

serras response to me was highly favorable

Could you walk me through your train of thought here? What would you have expected from me as scum?

BPC looks better with his walls, although Egg warns that as scum he is often townread just for his style. I like that he pressures people on unanswered questions.

We're pretty much unanimous on alchemist-scum. All of his defence looks too safe and he lacks a proper emotional response to being unfairly attacked. It also feels like he's jumping from attacker to attacker to start a wagon on one of them.

I really like one of the things BPC was hinting at, which is that Mina is getting opinions from her team-mates, but failing to integrate them with her own.

Oh, serrapaladin, Regfan wants to know why you didn't vote in your first post despite having several scumreads.

I hadn't made up my mind over which vote I preferred.

@mara: explain your alch read?

I'm not sure she's right, but I do like mara going entirely against the grain.

VOTE: Alchemist (L-1)

A few things here. It doesn't look like you disagree with Mina's Quilford read, and when you say, "I presume you're right," it sounds like you're sheeping the same read you just said seems too simplistic. If you have your own reasos for Townreading Quilford, I want to hear them.

I don't know what you consider a proper emotional response, but I already said I'm not an emotion-based player. I find getting emotional clouds my judgement and gets in the way of my play. Also, I'm not jumping from attacker to attacker trying to start a wagon on them. If that were my goal, I would have tried a wagon on Patrick and Mina, and 100% would have joined the Molla wagon that already existed when I started scumreading him.

Lastly, are you Townreading Mara right now just because she's going against the grain? That's not really a Towntell and scum can easily do that as well. Yesterday, it felt like pulling teeth trying to get some explanations out of her. I understand she's on V/LA, but if she was here long enough to respond to those questions she could have explained stuff the first time. Something else pinged me on her: She said she wasn't going to vote until she talked with her teammates, yet when she just plopped in with her naked vote and I asked her about it, she said she just kinda talked to them. "Kinda?" For someone who said she wanted input from her teammates before voting, I was expecting more than "kinda." There's a part of me that's paranoid that she's defending the main wagon that seems certain to be lynched as a way of getting Towncred.

[Mina]

I'm writing a big post now. However, can someone corroborate if this is true for me:

I was honest. I prefer being scum because it's usually more enjoyable, but I'm a stronger player as Town, and from a tactical standpoint making me Town is the better move.

[Alchemist21]

Not sure who you want to corroborate that other than myself. You can check my wiki page and see my game record if you want.

[serrapaladin]

@mina:
You're picking at the grammatical difference between "I'm not sure either Patrick or BB are scum" and "I'm fairly certain Patrick and BB are not both scum", which is silly.

I didn't say the points against you are interesting, I said I like them a lot, which is tantamount to agreeing with them. You slipping in the word "interesting" is a bit of a misrep. I may not have drawn points against you to a conclusion, but your characterisation of my stance against you is false. Regarding quil: my team and I think your read on Quil is correct independent of your alignment, but I think your justification reflects a lack of thought about the context of the game.

I feel you're trying to twist my words more than engaging with the actual content of my post.

I just don't think he was being especially wishy washy - I'm surprised you found this interesting. I don't get where you think I said that the first 5-6 pages should be treated differently because they happened quickly.

The way I understood your post was that BPC had shown an adequate level of read progression for the first few hours of a game, so I pointed out that the number of posts per player is a better metric for game progression. 5-6 pages is generally enough for active players to have asked questions directed at figuring out alignments, when BPC was spending more of his time justifying null-reads.

A few things here. It doesn't look like you disagree with Mina's Quilford read, and when you say, "I presume you're right," it sounds like you're sheeping the same read you just said seems too simplistic. If you have your own reasos for Townreading Quilford, I want to hear them.

I don't disagree with mina's read, just with her reasons. I really liked Quil's early argument with alchemist and he was pretty unapologetic in some of his interactions with Mina. Also, I don't really see scum making up the detailed story about posting a readlist similar to Mina's in his PT before she did.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Last I remember of this game I was feeling good about quilford, as well as mina, and not liking bpc or molla. going through ISOs abc style for now and i'll have time to give a proper read in a few hours.

--

I have zero experience with alchemist, at least none that I can remember. ISO looks generally crappy but I'm hesitant only with the knowledge that he is actually at L-1. I don't quite like how he jumped to defend me at quil. It's a bit weird to me considering we had not really interacted and there was no reason to believe I was town at that point, but suddenly he's just playing "devil's advocate"? Not so sure about it. And then subsequent defenses thereafter that don't track for me. I also really didn't like 139 where he starts talking about tokens and how they were used. "A slight amount into town for me" seems... vague and not noteworthy, but he wanted it to seem like it was and therefore mentioned it. The question from mina honestly seemed like a joke to me (I suppose I could be wrong about that, but questions about tokens seem silly and wifomy), so the response was oddly serious. The tone didn't match. Then the fear at quil following mina. Which seems weird. Why worry about players geling, whether true or not?

The biggest problem, really, is just a lack of town things and an abundance of things that COULD be scum. None of them are super strong though and the wagon worries me, but I'd be happy with this lynch at this point. I'm still working on the other ISOs. Will reassess if necessary when I finish that and vote.

--

BB bothered me quite a bit at first. I'm not quite sure how to read the bravado. He seems super abrasive here, which is different from what I remember of him. the games I'm specifically thinking of are my newbie, brass and shrapnel, and catbug game where he was scum I think but I don’t remember (will double check). Posts like 250 make me feel better about him though. It's often the attitude I have when I don't have the patience to deal with nonsense. Shelved for the moment as I want to get with my team on this one now that we're all back around.

with that, UNVOTE:

--

I didn't like BPC attacking me out of nowhere based solely on the fact that he saw other people doing the same thing, but my team (mostly sthar8) seems to think BPC is town. the only game with him that I remember was the lover game where we were scum together and he was super nervous about shit because ceph was in the game. I'm fine trusting my team on this one as a) I don’t have the meta and b) the meta I do have doesn't match so far.

--

I remember really really liking what Mina was doing. She was pulling strings left and right. I don’t think I've ever played any games with her though. I'd actually be interested in anyone here who has. A lot of the posts/conclusions she's making seem to come from a meta stand point, so it is somewhat hard to follow.

...

This is being cut short due to emergency project. Will return in a few hours after the bosses leave.

[Mina]

I got ninja'd a million times while writing this. Anyway, I'm trying to keep most of my waffling to myself this game. But if you want to know the truth, I've been seriously doubting the Alchemist wagon, in part based on posts like this, this, and this. I mean, I know stuff like "my team says X is scummy" and just generic scumhunting questions is fakeable, but a couple of those looked pretty real. It almost feels as though after a certain point, a switch went off and his posts started looking like scumhunting--I'd probably have a middling town read on him if I only read the second half of his ISO. He doesn't seem particularly stressed out about the wagon on him, either. And I'm sort of caught between not wanting to derail a potential lynch on scum right now (not to mention deal with all the "Why didn't you push him harder?" pestering tomorrow) and...basically how Patrick says he

doesn't

feel about Alchemist.

But it's not as though I have strong enough conviction he's town to actively fight this lynch. So I feel a bit paralyzed right now, to be honest.

It also doesn't help that the rest of my team thinks he's really obviously scum, and were trolling me by pressuring me to quickhammer him for the past hour, which is not helping my confidence

at all

right now (as I was writing this, Regfan actually agreed with me that his response to serra hit a few town notes, although he still suspected him, but still,

it was annoying when it was happening!

).

I do agree that Mara being off on her own world is a point in her favour, and I like her read on Alchemist came roughly when my doubts were emerging. I also agree with Patrick she's unlikely to be scum with Alchemist21. I don't know if I want to outright clear her, just because Mara's post has some moon-logic leaps I don't follow (Where is the read on serrapaladin coming from her? Why Patrick?), but it's not really a scummy sort of moon-logic.

[Alchemist21]

@Serra, why wouldn't scumQuilford make up such a story? Mina did say she saw him as scum before and he came up with a terrible reads list. I can easily see Quilford not wanting to post a reads list here because he's worried it will make him obvscum to more than just the person he's pushing.

P.S. Doesn't anyone find it odd that Quilford doesn't seem to be scumreading anyone else, and isn't even talking about them? Mina told him to focus on other players, and he said he would, but he hasn't done that. Since he started pushing me, he hasn't tried to interact with anyone else aside from a half-hearted interaction with Mina.

@ETL, I was not playing Devil's Advocate. Quilford made a statement about your posts and I asked why he thought that. I didn't agree. What exactly is so bad about asking another player to explain their opinion, and then deciding whether you agree/disagree? BPC said he saw what Quilford saw, but even if they're right about you rushing out posts, I don't think that would be more likely to come from scum since scum would tend to be more cautious with their posts and think them over.

[Alchemist21]

Mina can you answer my meta question about BBMolla please?

[Quilford]

Hey isn't it funny how you seem to care so much about meta except when its on your top scumread who everyone else has said never plays like this as scum

[Mina]

Not sure who you want to corroborate that other than myself. You can check my wiki page and see my game record if you want.

I mean, it'd be much easier if someone who's played with you several times could just go, "Yeah, I've seen him play, and he sucks as scum despite liking it more. He'd

totally

pick town here." I'd much rather not read all your games. Because otherwise, there's a good chance you lied about your token use here.

On that note, ETL, did your teammates mention anything about Alchemist21's meta?

Mina can you answer my meta question about BBMolla please?

Sorry, I got distracted. I think BBmolla tends to be really unconcerned with appearances, loose in his postin, and kind of flippant when he's town. He's aware of this to a certain degree as scum (why he only posts walls in games with alts or where no one knows him), which is why I didn't unvote until he looked like he had conviction in what he was saying. To be honest, I'm probably not overthinking this read all that much, because my entire team is in agreement he's obvtown. (There's a secret tell someone on our team has on him, but it hasn't been triggered yet.)

[BipolarChemist]

Your first three posts are literally nothing

Like good luck deflecting onto me, not my fault you fucking obv scummed in the first two pages.

I pointed out a number of other posts in my 229 of Alchemist deflecting. Just scroll down to the spoiler

I think it is generally something beneficial for scum to do, especially if they are deflecting onto town. They're thought process is probably "If I say hey you've been doing this to a town person, then they'll have to reflect and think oh well that might be more of a town action than scum". Like this thought process is obviously flawed when some things are either null, not really matching up, etc. I am interested in analyzing Alchy's deflection posts for this reason (I'm not doing now because I'm lazy and behind).

1) serrapaladin is now in my pool by PoE, since I have reasons to like most of the player list. He

could

be scum, basically.
3) Yep, I had an instinctive gut town read on him based on one post that I liked felt like trying. Why do you find that so out of the ordinary?
5) The game started yesterday, and so far, our conflicting schedules, time zones, and sleep patterns mean we've rarely been online at the same time--and when we have, they'll go, "hang on, I want to focus on this game first." As a result, our conversations about Twin Trap haven't really become a dialogue yet. (E.g., Regfan's reads were messages on Skype I saw after he'd gone to bed). Actually, I like that you made the observation about lack of discussion, since it's true so far, but it'll probably change soon

if Empire ever gets back to me about why he town reads you instead of putting it off to watch

The Walking Dead

HEY EMPIRE THIS IS A TEST ARE YOU READING THIS GAME YOU LAZY FUCKER?

6) I don't know, I get why an outsider might dislike it, but I much prefer being transparent and sharing this kind of inter-team stuff, particularly since, e.g., I don't feel comfortable pushing a you-wagon when half my team is against it. (I mostly mentioned the Regfan reads as pressure on Quilford, though.) And frankly, I suspect that people value their opinions more than mine, so I feel compelled to share them.

However, that was at least an improvement, so I'd thank you if you weren't messing with my biases and making the game harder.

1) + 3) I've never been a big fan of this logic. Like I can understand breaking it down to a few people by liking others, but I feel like that causes some to be ignored when looking at the game. Anyways, I'm still really disliking your early townread on Serra and feel like there was no basis for it, despite reasons you gave. An instinctive gut town read just feels like a cop out from properly trying to read into someone.
5) I can understand full discussion not happening yet, especially with so many games on the go, but that shouldn't stop you from laying down a question in your confessional. It was a over a full day later when you made this post after you said "Regfan and Empire are annoying and think BPC is town, though. Boo." Have you tried further discussion with them on that?
6) Opinions generally have an explanation, so my last question stands!

I actually don't know if I've played with BPC

I think I literally just assumed BPC was DV

:I

Is there a reason nobody wants to talk about/to me?

When I read posts, I'm looking for someone's reasonings behind things. You don't have this. I shouulddd be pressuring you for the reasonings, but I've been focused elsewhere!

RE BPC and Mina:

I get Town for both of these players. When BPC voted Mina, BBT told me he got Town vibes from him for not putting me at L-1. BPC's posts was set up so he could switch to me any time he wanted, but since then he's gone down the Mina path of interaction, so I'm pretty sure he's Town that's trying to get a good handle on the game.

I feel similarly about Mina. She didn't move to put me at L-1 just yet which she could have easily done by now. Her stream of conscious post was weird in that she picked at some pretty small and insignificant posts as what she liked/disliked, but the overall thought process she showed seems Town to me. BBT got scumvibes from her latest posts, but he's in agreement with me that a Quilford/Mina team doesn't make sense.

A couple things! Is not putting someone at L-1 a town thing to do? What if scum just don't want to drag attention to themselves?

I think ruling out pairings or ceasing looking into a player because they don't make sense with your current biggest scumread makes just doesn't make too much sense. I mean it's good to theorize pairings, but don't just write people off...

Titus said she feels like Quilford is the watch-immune goon and the scumteam wants him protected at all costs. It's part of why she's hard scumreading Molla because she thought his push on me was as a defense of Quilford.

I don't understand where this is coming from. Can you get clarification from her on why she thinks this?

I can't read wallposters

Cause I don't read wallposts

I'm not even gonna blame you. Wallpost reading sucks. (he says in a wall)