Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Quilford]

Who isn't aware of their own meta???

[Quilford]

That's at Alchemist. No PEdit came up.

[Alchemist21]

Who isn't aware of their own meta???

I'm pretty sure that nobody is 100% aware of their own meta, nor are they 0% aware. Some people are capable of manipulating their own meta, some aren't, and some are capable but usually just don't care to do so.

[Mina]

mina what is your experience with the player list?

I've only played with Quilford and BBmolla before. I've seen Patrick play, but have not been in a game with him. BPC I interact with a lot on Skype, but I've never seen him in a Mafia game before.

My teammates have some experience with other players (e.g., Zar modded a game serrapaladin was in and says he was very active there, teammates have said stuff like "So-and-so is bad as town," etc.).

[Alchemist21]

@BPC: This:

I do agree that Mara being off on her own world is a point in her favour, and I like her read on Alchemist came roughly when my doubts were emerging. I also agree with Patrick she's unlikely to be scum with Alchemist21. I don't know if I want to outright clear her, just because Mara's post has some moon-logic leaps I don't follow (Where is the read on serrapaladin coming from her? Why Patrick?), but it's not really a scummy sort of moon-logic.

Also, I mostly liked her RVS posts. So overall, weak town? There are a bunch of people I like more than her.

TBH, right now, I think Quilford is about as likely to be scum as Mara is. (I want this on the record, in the unlikely event I die and someone goes, "Ooh, Quilford wouldn't have posted on D1.") I think he'd be a really awful lynch for today, because his alignment will become really clear soon. But don't let him coast on, "Look, I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town!" Eventually, he'll scumhunt more organically.

How long do you think that's going to take for Quilford? How long are you willing to give him a pass?

[BBmolla]

I was referring mostly to your read on me tbh

and you wonder why i'm not fucking sure about you? you go around going "this entire post is gross" and then "oh i was just talking about that one part."

not to mention....

when have i ever been sure about you? when have i ever trusted myself to read you? when has doing so ever worked out? i specifically stated i wanted to get with my team on it because you're all kinds of wtf all the time. how is this any different from any other time i've tried to read you?

theres the etl i was looking for ty

[Patrick]

And I'm sort of caught between not wanting to derail a potential lynch on scum right now (not to mention deal with all the "Why didn't you push him harder?" pestering tomorrow) and...basically how Patrick says he doesn't feel about Alchemist.

Can you clarify what that means? From your post it seems like you have quite alot of doubt.

Tbh I agree that if I only had the second half of his iso he wouldn't be that suspicious. But I do think scum are often at their most nervous in the opening posts, and I wouldn't expect scum alchemist to keep posting pure filler after being called on that very thing. I did a small look at his meta and found his posts in the early game of White Flag to be different to this; more direct and purposeful. Scum meta is trickier because he only has two games on record - one where he was an SK and one was his first game onsite. But when I don't feel like death warmed up I'll be looking at that. tbh I was looking kind of hoping his town game would look different, which is not the way to go about it.

ETLs catchup looks fine i guess? I hate how reliant I apparently am on meta when I play mafia. I didn't catch anything that felt off.

(Yes, I know we're sort of attacking each other for similar things here. The difference is I'm obviously town and can do whatever I want! ^_^ Neener neener.

Why? Genuine question, feel free to self-meta.

@Quilford: your suspicion of Alchemist is well documented, and I don't think cutting down anymore of his posts is being very useful. Talk about some other players for a bit. He's not suddenly going to disappear.

[Alchemist21]

You forgot about Elemental Mafia. If you want me to link you to any offsite games I can.

[Patrick]

never mind, misunderstood how that game worked.

[Ms Marangal]

Because if watch-immune goon gets lynched, the tracker becomes a named Townie, and if they claim they become confTown and watcher can camp on them.

And if track immune does, tracker basically becomes a cop

[Ms Marangal]

All three of my team disagree... :/

Well they are unmemorable because egg is the only one I remember, and I think I was town with scum him

As far as my expectations of you, as scum you would be more readily take up the opportunity to get on my good side, I think.

[Ms Marangal]

Yesterday, it felt like pulling teeth trying to get some explanations out of her. I understand she's on V/LA, but if she was here long enough to respond to those questions she could have explained stuff the first time.

It should have. I am not apt to explain stuff when I don't want to/no real reason to. Especially not early game.

Here, I want my lynch and I am trying to defend you with my limited time, and it also isn't like reads haven't changed a but over time!

Do you really think scum is more likely to be stubborn with their.reads vs town, though? Because I just kinda realized that seems to be a big push for you and your scum reads.

I also lied about not voting! My teammates are busy with their games, but I did get some things out of them regarding you, which gave me a but of insight on how you operate but what it is isn't of much importance other than the fact that it makes you vying for town tokens as you stated you did so earlier alot more likely.

Right now, I am more interested in keeping you from getting lynched, and hopefully get pat lynched as soon as your safety is secured

[Ms Marangal]

Also, serra, my reasons for alch town are on p 13 & 14

What don't you understand?

[Ms Marangal]

I'm writing a big post now. However, can someone corroborate if this is true for me:

I was honest. I prefer being scum because it's usually more enjoyable, but I'm a stronger player as Town, and from a tactical standpoint making me Town is the better move.

Btw, this is the post that makes increasingly more sense based on what pie told me

[Ms Marangal]

I do agree that Mara being off on her own world is a point in her favour, and I like her read on Alchemist came roughly when my doubts were emerging. I also agree with Patrick she's unlikely to be scum with Alchemist21. I don't know if I want to outright clear her, just because Mara's post has some moon-logic leaps I don't follow (Where is the read on serrapaladin coming from her? Why Patrick?), but it's not really a scummy sort of moon-logic.

I am pretty well known for moon logic, and the fact that I am feeling a little cocky might make my stance seen much more so.

Though, the fact that this happened (doubts on alchemist read) is important. Do you really think other competent Hunters are completely unable to see where alchemist is possibly town?

I think, quill is just tunnel visioned, but patrick outright said he couldn't find anything in his posts that could be from town

[Ms Marangal]

And it was around the time I started to defend the hell of him and (from what I understand) is right around the time you had your doubts

[Alchemist21]

Because if watch-immune goon gets lynched, the tracker becomes a named Townie, and if they claim they become confTown and watcher can camp on them.

And if track immune does, tracker basically becomes a cop

Yeah, that is true. Watcher is generally considered more powerful, and Titus' original plan was about making as many confTown as possible.

Yesterday, it felt like pulling teeth trying to get some explanations out of her. I understand she's on V/LA, but if she was here long enough to respond to those questions she could have explained stuff the first time.

It should have. I am not apt to explain stuff when I don't want to/no real reason to. Especially not early game.

Here, I want my lynch and I am trying to defend you with my limited time, and it also isn't like reads haven't changed a but over time!

Do you really think scum is more likely to be stubborn with their.reads vs town, though? Because I just kinda realized that seems to be a big push for you and your scum reads.

Why shouldn't players explain themselves? I can't understand a player's stances or pushes if they don't give some kind of explanation, and scum would love to be able to get away with not having to explain themselves. If I know a thing or two about a player then I may not always need an explantiom since I know how they think, but I've never played with anyone on this game, so when I ask for an explanation that apparantly exists, only to be told, "It's a secret to everyone," it makes me feel like the player's hiding something. I can understand a Town player wanting to keep some sensitive info a secret, but I just don't see how it's pro-Town to consistently keep doing it for the most fundamental aspects of the game. You yourself said part of why you're Townreading me is how I'm giving a lot to work with. If you agree that's pro-Town, then why aren't you reciprocating?

I also lied about not voting! My teammates are busy with their games, but I did get some things out of them regarding you, which gave me a but of insight on how you operate but what it is isn't of much importance other than the fact that it makes you vying for town tokens as you stated you did so earlier alot more likely.

It's important to me. I want to know what was said because I want to see if it's stuff that could plausibly come from them or if it's just stuff you're making up in Left Field. For example, I want to know why Pie would think I would be more likely to go for the Town token. I was scum with Pie once and got to 5-p LyLo, whereas in our Town game together I was honestly terrible at trying to even keep up with the game, let alone form solid reads. I even replaced out of that game because I realized just how bad I was. Honestly, I would see that more likely to come from Mastin, who replaced into the same game I was Town with Pie not too long before I replaced out (and may or may not remember me that game) and has also modded my Town game in HU 2 where I was much better than in Touhou 2.

Right now, I am more interested in keeping you from getting lynched, and hopefully get pat lynched as soon as your safety is secured

I still want to know if your Pat push comes from thinking he's actually scummy, or just less-Towny than others.

[zoraster]

Day 1

*** Alchemist21 ( 4 ) ***

Patrick

Quilford

BBMolla

Serrapaladin

[/color]

(L - 1 )

BBMolla ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

BipolarChemist ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

EspeciallyTheLies ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

Mina ( 1 )

BipolarChemist

[/color]

(L - 4 )

Ms Marangal ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

Patrick ( 1 )

Ms Marangal

[/color]

(L - 4 )

Quilford ( 1 )

Alchemist21

[/color]

(L - 4 )

Serrapaladin ( 0 )

[/color]

(L - 5 )

No Lynch ( 0 )

Not Voting ( 2 )

Mina EspeciallyTheLies

Total Votes ( 9 )

Needed to Lynch [ 5 ]

Deadline: April 14th at 20:00 EDT
(expired on 2015-04-14 20:00:00)

Corrected

[Alchemist21]

@Mod, SerraPaladin voted me back in post 333.

[Alchemist21]

ETL, Titus wants me to reach out to you emotionally. I'm not really sure how to do that, but I'm pretty sure you can pick up on my frustration in my 391. She says you're better at reading people emotionally.

Also, and this is @everyone, I feel like I should go over my basic case on Quilford here one more time.
-He never really showed a scumread on me until there was suspicion already on me from Patrick and Mina. I read his jump onto the wagon as pretty opportunistic.

-Since his push on me, he has refused to engage anyone other than Mina and myself.

Let's even go into the meta discussions that have been had about him thus far (and this will include talk of his own self-meta).

-Mina mentioned earlier that she saw him in a prior game be obvscum because if his horrible reads. He's been extremely vague about his reads this game, and I think it's because he's worried that if he attempts to be open about his reads he'll be caught as scum.

-Quilford and Mina have brought up this about his scummeta - he lurks and is incredibly nervous. Whether or not you accept self-meta as valid, the description is a close fit to his play this game if you look closely. It is true that he has a high post volume (in the top 3 if I'm not mistaken) but his refusal to interact with the majority of the players essentially amounts to active lurking.

-He is acting incredibly nervous in this game. He justifies his tunnel on me partly because my teammates, Mina's teammates, and myself are scumreading him. Given that so far most of the in-game players have townread him and agree that I'm scum, it's not much pressure on him, so he shouldn't be nervous to the point of shutting down if he's Town.

The last part of this post is a point of my own defense. I have been the main wagon for the vast majority of this game. I am currently at L-1, and there is still no counterwagon. This should be a strong indicator to most people (if not everyone) that the wagon is indeed on Town.

[Quilford]

I find it hilarious that you are attempting to discuss my meta without even having read it yourself.

[Quilford]

You have literally simplified my scum meta into two words—without even looking at it—and then attempted to look at my play this game in the most convoluted way so that it fits those two words.

[Alchemist21]

RE BBMolla:
I still think there's a chance he could be scum because:

-When he got into the game, one of the first things he did was look at the votes on him. At this point, he and I both had 2 votes on our wagon. ScumMolla would have every reason to jump onto my wagon at this point. By voting me and using Patrick's reasoning for the vote, it looked like blatant scum jumping on the easy wagon to me.

-His later posts make me feel better about him. For one, soon after his vote on me he said he thought Serra was my buddy (though if Molla is Town he should seriously rethink that opinion now). It didn't make much sense until he pointed out the post that caused that belief, at which point I could see how one could think that (and later someone else mentioned this too; can't remember if it was Patrick or BPC).

-His accusation of ETL's post as being gross and the resulting interaction made me think he was scummy for tossing a vague accusation her way, then immediately backing down when she lashed out. Then I remembered something Titus told me earlier in the game - ETL can Towntell if pushed hard enough. Looking back, I can see that's what Molla was likely doing here.

-If Molla is Town, I would really prefer he try being at least a little more open about why he thinks the things he does, because as it is now I feel like I have to stand on my tip-toes and stretch my neck to see where he's coming from even half the time.

[Alchemist21]

RE Mara:

If she's Town, I really want her to be more open too. I'm not going to hand out a Townread for her just for being my knight in shining armor here, because when people start Townreading me for *reasons* I just get paranoid that it could be scum looking to pocket me (pocketing a player means saving them from a predicament or suspicion as a way to buddy up to them). I can get it of you don't like making longer posts than you need to, but I just can't understand you if you stay vague all the time, so if you're Town I need you to meet me somewhere in the middle here.

[Quilford]

Hold on. I'm going to have a snack and a cup of tea, then I'll talk about non-Alchemist players, and then we can drop the whole 'omg Quils only focusing on Alchemist' schtick