13p Normal [TM2015]

[pieguyn]

I don't understand why a townie wouldn't just admit to being wrong or at least partially admit to being partially wrong.

BIG HINT:

this is wrong. in jason's case, this is happening because he feels strongly that Boon is scum, he can't get anyone to see what he's seeing, and he's indignated that he's being pushed for what he perceives as a shit reason and refuses to give up on his angle for Boon being scum as a result of that.

stuff like this, when done in the way jason is doing it here, I've found to be way more a sign of town indignation than anything scum-motivated. I think a lot of the arguments put forth for jason scum have essentially amounted to this and a lot of it just isn't compelling.

quick question, what exactly does scum jason have to gain by being persistent about the Boon read here? he has basically no one following him. do you think scum jason is incapable of feigning reevaluation when presented with evidence that suggests his argument is wrong?

(btw, protip: Nacho supposedly not realizing this is a large part of why I think Thor, as well as everyone else in that slot, is just BS'ing here. I am about 99% sure town Nacho should not be ignoring this - the only explanation, which I do find plausible so I want to hear an explanation first, is that he isn't engaged with this game and so hasn't read enough in depth.

@THOR:

do you have any update in response to 454?)

I'll respond to other stuff and elaborate in more detail on why I find jason town later, I'm posting this from a school library.

[pieguyn]

oh, Cheetory asked for my read on Boon. I currently have him as null, but I haven't put much effort into reading him in-depth. I don't find the wagon on him particularly compelling at this point, either.

[Thor665]

(btw, protip: Nacho supposedly not realizing this is a large part of why I think Thor, as well as everyone else in that slot, is just BS'ing here. I am about 99% sure town Nacho should not be ignoring this - the only explanation, which I do find plausible so I want to hear an explanation first, is that he isn't engaged with this game and so hasn't read enough in depth. @THOR: do you have any update in response to 454?)

Nacho has not posted in the QT since I made him aware of your request.

[Thor665]

Well, I suppose there is a presumption he's reading to be 'aware' but he's been on site - so I do presume he's aware, just not responding.

[Thor665]

And going back and double checking - yes, i am presenting Nacho's reads correctly. He takes Jason's push as a playstyle based case and he (far moreso than I) even is townreading Boon - straight up.

Whattup pieface?

[pieguyn]

I don't really have a problem with him town reading Boon (and as I said, I haven't found most of the current scum reads on him compelling). him not town reading jason, on the other hand, is cause for concern because jason's reaction to being pushed was town as shit, for reasons he, specifically, would pick up on if his slot was town here and he was reading the game, and it looks like he's just ignoring it and pushing him as scum anyway.

the latter part of the last sentence is why I'm poking you over this instead of coming out full force over it, since I'm fairly busy myself and I know his RL is busy and I can understand if he just hasn't had any time to give any thoughts about the game - which appears to be the case. so, meh. I wanna see Nacho's response here.

[Thor665]

I never claimed Nacho was scum reading him.
I claimed Nacho agreed with me that Jason was pushing a policy/playstyle based case.

[pieguyn]

so Nacho has a town read on jason?

I was taking him agreeing with you saying his case on playstyle to mean he agreed with your scum read on him; that, and you appear to be factoring your team's reads into account already (or at least the town read on me).

[Thor665]

Going back and looking - Nacho apparently liked Jason's early "energy" basically. He called him active and townish.
That has slipped to a more moderate town read as the game has expanded, though he is disliking Jason's defense of his case as not playstyle based and agreed with me on that point when specifically asked.
He did indicate dislike of my current push, but also seemed to agree with me that there was very little consensus amongst the team as to who actually looks scum in this game - I even noted this information earlier when adhering t my push, because I argued that what the town needed was a claim or two and then a flip.

I thought you were asking him to look at the case again to re-verify that he thought it was playstyle based - and that's what I asked him to do (while mocking you for wasting or time as it is blatantly playstyle based).

[Thor665]

I was taking him agreeing with you saying his case on playstyle to mean he agreed with your scum read on him; that, and you appear to be factoring your team's reads into account already (or at least the town read on me).

I factor them in when we can ruddy agree on anything. It hasn't been happening a lot here.

Discussed it here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6737273
Still stand by my value call on it.

[Thor665]

Nacho would be the townread mentioned.

[pieguyn]

I still disagree the case is playstyle based - I'm half occupied with a HW assignment so I can't go through and explain it right at this second but I didn't think 160/162 were playstyle and you agreed the other post I brought up wasn't playstyle, among some other things. /shrug

Nacho *didn't* have any kind of opinion on jason's reactions to you pushing him after that post was made? it's the exact same thing as the reaction to Boon he supposedly town read him for, but it doesn't look like he's factoring it in (his current approach leaving jason open as a potential scum read instead if he continues acting the way he's currently acting).

[Thor665]

I still disagree the case is playstyle based - I'm half occupied with a HW assignment so I can't go through and explain it right at this second but I didn't think 160/162 were playstyle and you agreed the other post I brought up wasn't playstyle, among some other things. /shrug

If 160 and 162 were part of the three you brought up earlier - yes, those are straight up playstyle based issues.
I did agree that the OMGUS thing could be squinted at and called...well, a case based on OMGUS as scummy - but, frankly, i don't think OMGUS is that great to hinge a case on, and if that's your best example of 'not playstyle' then I think you and I have *MASSIVELY* different bars to leap over to make a case not playstyle based.

Nacho *didn't* have any kind of opinion on jason's reactions to you pushing him after that post was made?

After which post? The one I linked? No, his reads didn't particularly change except maybe to ease back slightly on the town read. Though he still holds it as of his last game update.

it's the exact same thing as the reaction to Boon he supposedly town read him for, but it doesn't look like he's factoring it in (his current approach leaving jason open as a potential scum read instead if he continues acting the way he's currently acting).

I don't follow this question, and it appears to be asking me to answer a value call for a read Nacho offered - all I can tell you is what Nacho offered to me.
I don't particularly like either read, myself, and have been ignoring both, if that makes you happy.

[pieguyn]

I did agree that the OMGUS thing could be squinted at and called...well, a case based on OMGUS as scummy - but, frankly, i don't think OMGUS is that great to hinge a case on, and if that's your best example of 'not playstyle' then I think you and I have *MASSIVELY* different bars to leap over to make a case not playstyle based.

it's not, but saying that his case is solely based on OMGUS is in itself an oversimplification. it was the *way* Boon did it, in no small part the timing of it and the fact that he did not make any mention of jason being scum before he was prompted about it, that was scummy.

there are some other things that I didn't think were playstyle. I'll explain it in-depth once I finish working on HW -.-

I don't follow this question, and it appears to be asking me to answer a value call for a read Nacho offered - all I can tell you is what Nacho offered to me.
I don't particularly like either read, myself, and have been ignoring both, if that makes you happy.

essentially, what I'm saying is that Nacho's read on jason is not what it should be.

1. he town reads jason based on conviction from Boon push. OK.
2. jason continues making strong town posts in reaction to being pushed after Nacho's initial stated read.
3. Nacho responds by calling jason less strongly town than before for other reasons.
4. Nacho does not continue town reading jason in the same way he was before, despite jason exhibiting the same behavior.

there's a slight disconnect here. I would expect that Nacho should be treating jason as strong town right now, not as ambivalent could-go-either way town.

yes, it's not that much of a disconnect, but it's enough to set off alarm bells. why? I think the most compelling explanation for this is that if Nacho has strong town on jason, he would be actively defending him, or otherwise attempting to definitively override your read on him such that you'd stop trying to lynch him over it. however, as it currently stands, this kind of defense that I would expect from him isn't here. this makes me think that what we're seeing here is you working to lynch jason, while Nacho kind-of-sort-of sits on the sidelines going "jason might be town" so that your slot looks slightly better if jason gets lynched, as opposed to putting any effort into it (which would result in him not being lynched).

it's the same thing you 2 have done as scum before in a game, except the other way around: you lead, while Nacho offers reads that are the opposite of yours, and neither of you have to take any responsibility for it because Nacho isn't actively engaged in the game.

essentially, what I'm saying is Nacho should be thinking there is no way jason is scum here, but he's not. the other thing (although minor) is that I'd expect at least one of you to take some interest in Tammy's town read on him, but I haven't seen that from either of you yet.

[pieguyn]

basically, the way jason reacted practically makes him almost as conftown as an IC my eyes. it should have for Nacho as well, but it didn't. this is where my issue lies.

[Thor665]

OMGUS is not a case, regardless, and even if it is it fails to make the rest of the case non-playstyle and a negative reaction to a playstyle based case doesn't feel weird to me regardless.

I can say his reasons for townreading him remain the same as ever - as to the downgrade. Eh, I guess I'll add that to the ask.
Nacho is trying to override my read I flat out said as much - do you seriously think he has the level of sway and control to do so though? You seem to be basing the issue on the fact Nacho isn't controlling me.
That seems silly.
There is zero evidence to suggest that I would bend to Nacho's wishes - especially over a read based on "he has energy" especially in this game of all ruddy games. We needed a claim a week ago.

[Thor665]

Hell, and the only other wagon of any note is *also* a Nacho town read.
Let's see; if I went off just Nachos's reads I'd be lynching sthar, Fenchurch, Micc, and maybe Delta.
Two of those are amongst my top town reads.

Oh - shock - Nacho don't control gak.

Team mates are there for input and suggestions and advice. They are not there to play the game for me. I am using them as a sounding board - not a hydra.

[Thor665]

Are you playing like a hydra?

[pieguyn]

OMGUS is not a case, regardless, and even if it is it fails to make the rest of the case non-playstyle and a negative reaction to a playstyle based case doesn't feel weird to me regardless.

you continue to handwave jason's angle as "OMGUS" when there is a lot more to it than that.

it's as I said. there is a distinction between OMGUS'ing someone, and objectively analyzing a push and finding issues with it. I doubt jason would have pushed Boon over it so strongly if he had stated jason was scum before he was actually prompted for a scum read, nor if he had any reasons for jason being scum that were particularly good.

Nacho is trying to override my read I flat out said as much - do you seriously think he has the level of sway and control to do so though? You seem to be basing the issue on the fact Nacho isn't controlling me.

if someone on my team has an exceedingly strong read on someone, especially a town read, then I would absolutely make use of it, yes. see: me thinking Mala might be scum but notsci being relatively sure she's town (even discounting RL factors).

my issue is that I would have expected a similar dynamic here - but even discounting factors such as how your team is playing it, it amounts to Nacho missing something I would have expected him to see if he was town. but, meh. we're not really getting anywhere with this so I'll just wait for what Nacho says

[sthar8]

Is this really the first time you've experienced this from anyone?
Do you never get "conclusions" before analysis from town?

Conclusions before analysis generally implies some addiional factor. It could be looking for reactions, but that wasn't borne out by egg's following posts. It could be a meta factor, but I've never played with egg before. My scenario fits better than any town motivation, so it's the one I'm going with.

I disagree, so this is a non-starter for me to see his approach as scummy.

Okay, well, I guess we can append that to the list of things Thor's wrong about this game. I still don't believe that if I said to you 'You're scum because you OMGUSsed jason and I didn't like your fen vote and your STD position is the most popular in the thread' the expected response would be you listing all of your reads and positions.

Clearly - but frustration is a null tell.

Sure but where you're seeing 'caught scum' I'm seeing 'pissed at Thor'

Why?

Even while he's trying not to call you names, he's trying to figure out the other players. Not looking for an easy lynch, but trying to suss out motivations behind the posts. And he's been open with his thought process, even wrt you, and trying to cut the bias out of his reads. He's playing an uninformed game, and that means town. I do hate the boon vote, but I'm pretty solid on this read.

You and your team tend to think very alike then? Or you think you have eough pull to sway the rest of them regardless?

Well TTH speaks all the same languages as me. Our hydra was basically one of us saying something, and the other saying 'yeah that sounds right.' When I hydra with ETL she holds up all the parts of the game that I find terminally boring, then follows my conclusions. And Anti just watched me take apart molliegeddon, so he's pretty trusting of my towngame right now. So both I guess?

What was that about a double standard wrt me?

There was the active lurking note on me, and I remember someone else getting pushed for 'not doing anything' right now. But you've basically stated that you're not going to contribute today and I don't see you taking any flak for it. I need to dig around and see if activity standards are being unevenly applied and figure out what I think that means if they're not. But I'm tired tonight and I'm working a 12 tomorrow, so it'll be Saturday after I help the boys with homework.

I don't think the evidence was bad. To be fair, you haven't followed up on ANY of it except in response to me. If I hadn't said anything, I honestly can't say I believe you'd have done anything with it. Therefore, it was apparently a pretty useless post even though it has the appearance of contribution. So I wasn't exactly wrong on it.

I have drawn conclusions and continued developing reads from what I learned there. Those questions were instrumental in developing my townreads on Fen and Boon. I understand why you'd think otherwise since I'm not being super explicit about my process, but that's because my time is being consumed by pushing my primary case.

If this was true, I wouldn't be wavering on my read on you. Are you even reading my posts? The above seems to apply more to your stance on me than the other way around.

And how am I supposed to know that your read is wavering? Am I a mind reader? Also, changing your read after I called you out for having a static read in the face of changing evidence is not particularly impressive.

Aaaaaand I'm caught up.

Vote Boon

This is a vote for a low-hanging fruit wagon.

My main concern with Boon is how he first throws out the VI card and then goes all "lol I can be useful" and does nothing. The entire purpose of his game right now is trying to WIFOM votes on him into looking bad.

This is preparing for flip fallout.

@ fen- talk to me about pie. Where's your townread coming from?

@pie- wanna play a question game? You ask me one, I ask you one, repeat until we're satisfied. No agenda, no baiting, just help me figure out where you're coming from.

[pieguyn]

@pie- wanna play a question game? You ask me one, I ask you one, repeat until we're satisfied. No agenda, no baiting, just help me figure out where you're coming from.

sure, but I still haven't read the last few pages in detail so I probably won't have anything specific if it has to do with the last few pages

[sthar8]

That's OK, it's more about thought process than anything else.

How do you feel about meta as a scumhunting tool?

[Boonskiies]

Sorry about the mia, guys. I am in tech week for a production I'm in. Finally the end of the week. Will catch up hopefully in the morning tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

it can be useful, except you have to do it right or it doesn't work

most of the time you can't just say stuff like "xxx posts more as town" - you should always form reads based off motivation. the correct kind of meta is when you see a body of evidence and realize that someone usually does stuff with the same/similar motivation in most of their games. you still read them based on motivation, but you know what to look for as town vs. scum. obviously you have to take other factors into account and figure out how/if what they're doing fits in with the kind of stuff they usually do, and see how it makes sense, and it's a bit more complicated when someone is aware of their meta since you have to think about if they're faking it.

sometimes someone will play entirely off what you've seen of them before. in that case you might as well just try to read them normally (since if it means anything, you should be able to figure it out anyway).

it's also useful if you're reading someone and you need to figure out if a certain aspect of their play is just playstyle-based or if it actually means something. usually if I ever cold-meta someone, that's why I'm doing it.

I can't really think of anything to ask since most of the standing questions I have for you are about game-related content (and I haven't had much of a chance to go back and respond to your posts in-depth). do you generally consider attempting to withhold suspicion of, and work with, scum reads as town a valid strategy?

p-edit: @sthar

[Nexus]

bump