Open 35: Big Love - Game over!

[NabakovNabakov]

@Sacred:

Connections I saw between you and Zindy:

On another note, I'd really like to hear from Sacred. I know you're busy a lot, but I'm getting the feeling only you and me actually have love left, and it feels so alone without you. *sad*

She singles you out of all other lurkers and non-contributers to comment.

Between 202 and 207, you guys have a 1on1 conversation about your veiws on the thread that feels very chummy and familiar, like it belongs in PM format. (This is right before Adel asks you about your previous relationship)

I want Sacred to give her opinion on Guardian's response. I also want her to pitch in on Nabakov and Adel.

Once again, she singles you out for comment on an issue that doesn't necessarily concern you directly. Asking you to "pitch in" on me and Adel just sounds funky. You then have a back and forth about hugs and leashes on the matter.

I've seen you following her lead in disliking the Darko wagon, fingering Guardian and me as scum, and looking closer at Adel. Of course, that can be said of many people. I just saw you two with a more direct, friendly relationship than others, and chose to comment. I said both of you seemed "savier" because I saw you both as fairly experienced players who would know better to link blatantly in the thread if your roles were actually linked. I'm not labeling you as scum or lovers. The fact that you two

do

have a significant meta-game relationship nullifies any findings.

To address your other points:

7 votes would have been more than enough pressure, but Darko wasn't there to

be

pressured. I was thinking that it would be helpful to information gathering to have a few more votes than 3 on him whenever he got back.

Yes, I admit to playing poorly/scummily. To deny it would be stupid, it's right there in the thread.

Let's just say I see Flea as having a more... energetic style than other players, the kind of style that would have the tendancy to generate a lot of noise. His tendancy to bandwagon is a solid tell, and that's why I commented, but to be honest, quickwagoning seems to be the hallmark of this game. I hope my comment will get him posting content, and then everything will be cool.

Commentary on other posts coming in 5 or 6 hours.

Mod edit
Votecount:
Adel (2): Guardian, ryan
pickemgenius (1): Erg0
Darko (2): YoghurtBandit, FeRnAnDo
Guardian (4): Zindaras, Numenorean7, Sarcastro, Sacred
somestrangeflea (1): pickemgenius
Numenorean7 (1): Adel
Sarcastro (1): JordanA24

Not voting (7): Xdaamno, xyzzy, Honary Hitchhiker, darko, Sir Tornado, NabakovNabakov, somestrangeflea

With 19 alive, it's 10 to lynch.

[ryan]

Ryan: A couple of things stick out for me here:

Strong FoS: darko

Why not vote? This is another common scumtell.

I would vote Adel at this point, but my vote appears to already be on her.

Um, you didn't know where your vote was?

Wow, way to misinterpret/misrepresent Guardian there. You either read that very poorly, or you're deliberatly making an already suspicious player seem even scummier. MAJOR SCUM TELL.

Did you read the next few posts AFTER that where Guardian explained why he did that? Read the next two posts and THAN tell me what I did that was "a major scum tell?" As far as FoS somebody, what is wrong with that? It isn't commonly scummy to FoS somebody Jordan, do I need to metagame you to see how many times you've done it?

[ryan]

I would

vote

Adel at this point, but my vote

appears

to already be on her.

Um, you didn't know where your vote was?

I knew exactly where my vote was after reread -- it was a figure of speech .

So you stated it like that just for rhetorical effect?

So you stated it like that just for rhetorical effect?

Yes.

[JordanA24]

He still knew his vote was on Adel though, didn't he.

[Sacred]

@Sacred:

Connections I saw between you and Zindy:

On another note, I'd really like to hear from Sacred. I know you're busy a lot, but I'm getting the feeling only you and me actually have love left, and it feels so alone without you. *sad*

She singles you out of all other lurkers and non-contributers to comment.

I can speculate on the reason why he did that, but I'll let him explain it since he knows best.

Between 202 and 207, you guys have a 1on1 conversation about your veiws on the thread that feels very chummy and familiar, like it belongs in PM format. (This is right before Adel asks you about your previous relationship)

I saw it more as relaxed. And it was because he was asking for further clarification on some points I had made in my post (including some typos). However, that information was of general interest anyway, since it was my opinion on many things that had happened in the game. Besides, Guardian and flea also chipped in at one point.

I want Sacred to give her opinion on Guardian's response. I also want her to pitch in on Nabakov and Adel.

Once again, she singles you out for comment on an issue that doesn't necessarily concern you directly. Asking you to "pitch in" on me and Adel just sounds funky. You then have a back and forth about hugs and leashes on the matter.

Out-of-context ftw much?
Here's Zind's post again, with the information that you appear to have missed:

I want Sacred to

give her opinion on Guardian's response. I also want her to pitch in on Nabakov and Adel.

I'd like for Adel to

explain her vote for Nabby in 92. I also want her to elaborate on the "interesting reactions" in 195. Were they scummy? Townie? An opinion on darko would also be nice.

Sarcastro should do

what he said he would do in 174.

darko's post 242 made me look a bit closer at ryan, and I noticed some things I don't really like there.

Ryan really needs to provide input

on more people. The only thing I have on him opinion-wise is a strong FoS on darko. He has posted and argued since then, but he hasn't said anything relevant.

For the rest, I'd like to see more contribution

from the people who haven't posted (a lot) yet.

Now that things are re-placed in perspective, it's clear that Zindaras wasn't picking me out, he was calling out all the people he felt needed to say one thing or another.

Also, the leash back and forth thing was because I had found his request for me to pitch in on players x, y, z to be somewhat ... commanding, leading, which is why I made the ironic retort. Yet I made the analysis on said players because that was the main issue being discussed: opinions on those players.

I've seen you following her lead in disliking the Darko wagon, fingering Guardian and me as scum, and looking closer at Adel. Of course, that can be said of many people.

The closer look on Adel was, as was the case with darko and Guardian as well, explained by the fact that it was the issue being discussed. Naturally, all players should have chipped in.
As for following a lead in the other cases, I'd agree with you had I not given reasons for my opinions, based on a re-read of the entire thread.
However, considering that the players are divised into 2-3 sides when it comes to those particular matters, I find it hard to consider my opinion lead by someone else. Can the same thing be said about all players who have the same opinions as I do? Are we all being lead by Zindaras?

I just saw you two with a more direct, friendly relationship than others, and chose to comment. I said both of you seemed "savier" because I saw you both as fairly experienced players who would know better to link blatantly in the thread if your roles were actually linked. I'm not labeling you as scum or lovers. The fact that you two

do

have a significant meta-game relationship nullifies any findings.

Then why do you bring these points up? Is the meta-game relationship a null tell or does it have bearing on your analysis here? Because it seems that you bring it up only so you can discard it at the end. It's somewhat confusing.
As for being friendlier when it comes to Zindaras, consider the fact that I've recently joined mafiascum and he's the only player I know out of all you fine people I'm playing with right here.

7 votes would have been more than enough pressure, but Darko wasn't there to

be

pressured. I was thinking that it would be helpful to information gathering to have a few more votes than 3 on him whenever he got back.

So basically, he wasn't there when you voted either. Since you placed your vote in attendance for when he'd be back. The two situations kinda look the same to me.

Let's just say I see Flea as having a more... energetic style than other players, the kind of style that would have the tendancy to generate a lot of noise. His tendancy to bandwagon is a solid tell, and that's why I commented, but to be honest, quickwagoning seems to be the hallmark of this game. I hope my comment will get him posting content, and then everything will be cool.

Ok.

[Xdaamno]

Sorry the analysis was a slight letdown. In response to ryan, look at my very first anaylsis; I outlined my main reasons. Apart from that, I agree with what everyone else says about him (And

don't

call scum tell on this one. Just because I believe everyone else represents my reviews dosen't mean I'm backseat driving).

[Xdaamno]

Also, whoever said they found a few scum tells on flea, I missed them. Not sure if it's because It's hard for me to keep up or because I just missed them, though.

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: Eh, triple post.

I meant to add 'Can you tell me which scum tells you mean?' or somethign like that.

[YogurtBandit]

I think Im going to re-read the thread..

[ryan]

He still knew his vote was on Adel though, didn't he.

He had to admit to knowing it and that his comment was "rhetorical effect" It wasn't a misrepresentation it was not having enough info to accurately make an assesment

[Zindaras]

Zindaras - I find it hard to imagine a Scum being as upbeat as this guy!

Is this a joke comment?

Horribly scummy? I was asked different questions and I responded. If Guardian is a townie, why would we want to get rid of him because he's playing incorrectly?

We don't know if Guardian is a townie. Only the scumbags now that.

I thought/think that Guardian was a townie that was picked on unfairly and than had a couple scum jump on his bandwagon. He had 4 or 5 votes pretty quick before it slowed down. If his train of play continues I don't have a problem placing a vote on him but for now he reads to me as a frustrated townie who was hit by quite a few accusations and never had a chance to recover. He's stayed consistent in admitting he has been picked on in other games and lynched unfairly

This is not what you said in your first post. In your first post, the only thing you do is point out that he

could

be town. You literally say "if he's town" and "if he is just a frustrated townie". Which says absolutely nothing. As we say here, if my auntie had a pair of balls, she'd be my uncle.

You don't say that he is town, you simply suggest it two, three times and leave it at that.

I'm giving the guy a chance, why are you so quick to dismiss him as a townie?

I see you've decided to go and wildly misrepresent my posts as well.

Zindaras: My 'manipulative' point wasn't really an attack, but I was just pointing out a few of your posts leave everyone in suspense, allowing you to direct the game more easily. It was more of a joke than anything else, though.

I do that because I respond to a lot of stuff, and I don't always get all my points in on my first read (or I'm simply busy and I just respond to the critical points at first). I wouldn't want people to think that I'm not responding to them. That would make them love me less!

I'm starting to wonder if ryan and Guardian are lovers. I agree with ST (we're in a game together with ryan at the moment), ryan's behavior regarding Guardian is uncharacteristic. He seems to be defending him while trying to seem like he isn't defending him.

For one, lovers would not necessarily defend their partners, only if they think their partner is town (after all, there's a 20% chance for the partner to be scum, as opposed to a 22% chance for a random player). For two, I view things like that more as an indication of being scumbuddies.

Erg0: Lurker

Absolutely no content. Could just be intimidated by the size of the thread, could be using this as an excuse for lurking.

Erg0's a pretty darn good Mafia player. However, I've gotten the impression from other games I've seen him that he's been rather busy lately. I expect him to contribute very nicely later on.

She's suggesting that, since Zindy's post seemed to bring up the treacherous lover, Zindy might be the treacherous lover. Kinda thin.

Totally accurate. It was thin, I was fishing for a scummy reaction from other players as much as I was fishing for a scummy reaction from Zin.

Kinda...silly, don't you think? This is about as thin as a hair. "The first who talks about the Doc is the Doc" is not only a horribly outdated tell, it can also not be generalized to all roles.

Also, I had no idea that was what that particular quote meant until you said it here.

So should we just vote out xyzzy just to make it easy on everyone?

I don't even know how to describe how terrible and rather scummy that idea is.

Vote: Darko

Darko's post was quite obviously a joke.

Woah. That's not the vibe I got from your Post 62, nor your consecutive explainings.

Well, it would have been easier had you said "he" since Zind is male.

It's the pink and my female attraction, isn't it? Or maybe the cuteness and the sweetness? The love and the niceness? Or is it the fact that I'm a mean-spirited, foul-tongued, cheating, evil person?

Not that I'm saying that all girls are mean-spirited, foul-tongued and cheating, evil persons. I'm definitely not saying that.

On another note, I'd really like to hear from Sacred. I know you're busy a lot, but I'm getting the feeling only you and me actually have love left, and it feels so alone without you. *sad*

She singles you out of all other lurkers and non-contributers to comment.

Sacred is probably one of the better, if not one of the best, players in this game.

Also, I love her dearly and like saying things like that to her. What can I say? Every man has his vice.

Between 202 and 207, you guys have a 1on1 conversation about your veiws on the thread that feels very chummy and familiar, like it belongs in PM format. (This is right before Adel asks you about your previous relationship)

Huh? This isn't true at all. For one, it wasn't about the views on the thread. She said she was getting scumvibes from me and Sir Tornado, someone who I believe is town, with no explanation. So I asked her about it, as I think I've asked dozens of questions like that to other people over the course of this game already. For two, I don't really see how that particular exchange is any different from the other times I've grilled someone. The only thing that's different there was that Sacred immediately responded and there were no posts in between. I felt her post was insufficient so I questioned her until she answered sufficiently.

Once again, she singles you out for comment on an issue that doesn't necessarily concern you directly. Asking you to "pitch in" on me and Adel just sounds funky.

Mafia don't like taking early opinions on people. In some situations, I force people to do so, which can come back and bite them later on if they're scum. Sacred has already nicely responded to the singling out thing.

You then have a back and forth about hugs and leashes on the matter.

I like joking and will make jokes whenever I see the opportunity and feel like it, which is most of the time.

I just saw you two with a more direct, friendly relationship than others, and chose to comment.

Same could be said of Adel and you (if my memory serves me well) and the other small talk I've seen going on between people.

I said both of you seemed "savier" because I saw you both as fairly experienced players who would know better to link blatantly in the thread if your roles were actually linked. I'm not labeling you as scum or lovers. The fact that you two

do

have a significant meta-game relationship nullifies any findings.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Sacred's kind of a newbie (well, I guess everybody's a newbie compared to me >.>). She does a mighty fine job at hiding that fact, though.

To address your other points:

Yes, I admit to playing poorly/scummily. To deny it would be stupid, it's right there in the thread.

I don't really like woe-is-me, especially at this early stage of the game.

As for following a lead in the other cases, I'd agree with you had I not given reasons for my opinions, based on a re-read of the entire thread.
However, considering that the players are divised into 2-3 sides when it comes to those particular matters, I find it hard to consider my opinion lead by someone else. Can the same thing be said about all players who have the same opinions as I do? Are we all being lead by Zindaras?

Of course you are, you pitiful fools. They will suspect nothing, and then, Boom! Like a mouse trap I shall wrap my claws around the throats of the town and I shall extinguish all life! No one expects the Feline Inquisition!

Woops, did I just say that out loud?

As for being friendlier when it comes to Zindaras, consider the fact that I've recently joined mafiascum and he's the only player I know out of all you fine people I'm playing with right here.

What about the fact that you love me? Where did all the love go? I'm playing in Big Love Mafia and nobody loves me, they just think I'm some nazi forcing them to do what I want... *sob*

About the numbers thing (since a lot of people have brought it up), I'm a bit of a geek in that aspect. I like statistics and chance analysis. I keep statistics on the silliest of things. I've played a lot of games and such by myself, and making statistics is something I've always done.

[Adel]

The relationship between Zindie (girlie avatar) and Sacred (whose name I have trouble spelling) doesn't undermine my opinion of their townieness. If NabNab was playing as townie as Zindie, I would follow his lead and not have a problem with his leadership. I think allowing a natural leader who seems townie lead the group is a good thing. I have a high opinion of the value of leadership, and that even scum-led leadership is better than none at all. I was a NCO in the military, which may give me an unusual perspective on this.

ryan just made a good, long post, that I will have to review carefully when I have time. One immediate thing that I think I should point out is that I do

not

have a consistent playstyle. I haven't since my third game, or so. I have made it a point not to. I think it will allow me to improve faster as a player to experiment with different approaches to the game. I play chess with very different playstyles as well, especially since some of my opponents started to prepare against me by studying my games. It is always awesome when your opponent expects you to follow an aggressive line of the Sicilian, and you transpose into a time-sensitive defensive posture instead (here's looking at you Guardian, Sir Tornado, and the rest of Team Mafia Scum).

[Adel]

He still knew his vote was on Adel though, didn't he.

He had to admit to knowing it and that his comment was "rhetorical effect" It wasn't a misrepresentation it was not having enough info to accurately make an assesment

I think Guardian's statement and the clarification it required is a null-tell. I think it was sloppy writing that may appear insincere, but is totally excusable.

[Numenorean7]

When you post tonight I hope you will explain why you would say something so horribly scummy! I think you are good enough of a player that I question whether are capable of making that kind of slip when you are scum, but I think it is prudent to unvote vote:Numenorean7 for now. You think that both ryan and Guardian are scummy, and you think they could be lovers together.

Don't have much time now, just wanted to defend myself quickly. I think Guardian is possibly scum. There are a number of reasons for ryan's uncharacteristic defense of Guardian:
1) They're both Mafia
2) They're lovers (in which case Guardian is perhaps treacherous)
3) Ryan is Mafia and is attempting to look good later by having defended a partner, or having defended a townie.
4) Ryan is town and is not being aggressive for some reason.

I just wanted to mention possibility #2. I didn't say I thought you were lovers, I wanted to mention it as another possible explanation of ryan's behavior. It still strikes me as scummy, but it could be a lover-tell.

Hope that makes sense. I will finish my player-by-player, and address this more fully.

[Numenorean7]

EBWOP:
I screwed up reason #3, but you know what I mean.

[Adel]

I think any public speculation on who could be a lover with whom is a significant scum tell. My vote stays.

[Guardian]

This is going to be a post of responses, with a summary of who I find most scummy at the end. While I feel that people are still making a few spammy noise-fill posts, the signal:noise ratio is getting better in this game...

One thing I will say before delving in, is that I disapprove of people listing every player in the game and commenting on them. I am taking a page out of MeMe's book here -- she made this argument in a game where I was scum and she was town -- and I agree with her that it is

not

pro-town to draw attention to those you find to be highly pro-town.

By pointing out a player to be strongly pro town or definitely pro town, all you do is paint a target on the backs of them for the scum. Onto my responses:

---

GUARDIAN
- zindaras accuses him: "His call for darko's blood is pure, unfettered bandwagon." To this, Guardian responds:
"Lies. I didn't like darko's suggestion, and wanted him pressured."
That's not what he'd been saying so far:
"I like wagons on scummy players. unvote vote: darko."
"darko is still scummy."

I don't see an inconsistency there. I try and use my votes to focus attention on players and show that I am suspicious of them. "Call for darko's blood" was not an accurate representation of my sentiments.

To me, pressure is one thing, bandwagon is another.

I don't understand how.

-Guardian has some really ... hmm... revolutionary ideas about the gameplay and such, ideas which tend to be proved as anti-town.

Specifically?

All in all, I tend to believe that Guardian really has some issues with his playstyle and it being accepted by other players.

I had irl and out of game issues on that day. This will probably come back to "haunt me" all game, but that is what happened. And in advance -- yes, obviously I am backtracking. Saying that my playstyle in general caused this was only a half truth.

I see inconsistencies, I see vote hopping, I don't actually see any solid material.

I agree -- however, you didn't seem to take my post 316 into account in this analysis -- right?

In conclusion, if/when Guardian comes up scum, I think we should take a long, hard look at NabNab.

FoS: NabNab

You attacked me earlier in this post for "setting up" Sir Tornado vis a vis darko -- I said that if darko came up scum, Sir T deserved a looking over. You said this was scummy, and that town can defend scum too:

- he says at one point: "I don't like Sir T's unvote, IF darko turns up scum."
What if darko turns up town? That looks like a way of setting up the next lynch. Or what if SirT is town backing up scum? It's definitely not unheard of. Your statements are incomplete and could go both ways.

It seems you are doing the same thing you just called me scummy for -- setting up NabNab for lynch if I am lynched and turn up scum (which I won't ftr). Would NabNab not be scummy if I turned up town? How is this statement at yours at all different from the statement of mine you attacked me for -- are you not being hypocritical//scummy here?


Sidenote: playstyle wise, props to Sacred for not listing everyone in the game, and instead only listing her suspects.

---

I think Guardian is playing in a manner to make it hard to metagame him- he recycles similar arguments, and is very hard to get a scum tell on when he is scum. I think he often lets himself seem a little scummy on purpose.

Do you have any basis for this, whatsoever, other than pure speculation? Can you cite any game where I have acted scummy to make it hard to get a read on me? I would be quite interested to see it, because as far as I know I have never done so.

Also, Adel, if you could respond to my 331...

---

The ones I'm suspicious of atm are Guardian (for obvious reasons)

Please elaborate. Do you have anything original or insightful to share? Are the obvious reasons that others are suspicious of me (and that right now it is "easy" to be suspicious of me and not draw attention to yourself)?

--

Anyway, here's a "

Generic List of What I Think of Everyone!™

"

As much as I disagree with these lists, I think there is some good content here...

Zindaras - I find it hard to imagine a Scum being as upbeat as this guy! Good analyses of posts, etc. Would be surprised if he turned up scum.

I have no imaginative issues here. SSF's analysis seems honest enough though.

Xdaamno - Doesn't seem to go overboard on content-filled posts. Only real "big" post from him, Is here. Is it just me, or does:

Guardian: Eh, not too sure. It dosen't stretch my imagination for guardian to be scum, so I'll just reserve a 'I told you so'.

...seem like it's trying to nudge suspicion, without trying to be seen as having any?

Now that is juicy. Has Xdaamno responded?

JordanA24 - Majority of posts are incredibly short. Quite reclusive. Seems to be posting general points without actually getting "in" the discussion.

And going the easy route.

NabakovNabakov - NNs sudden switch from "If you're getting pegged as scum in your games that means you're a bad player" which seemed quite aggressive, to teaching Guardian how to be the perfect townie bothered me a little.

Me too, it seemed off, as it did with ryan. I mean, I really appreciate the empathy, but it seems off.

Guardian - I didn't like his "giving up" phase, but I can see why someone would. And I didn't like the "short days

are

better for town" phase either, simply because, well... it's not really true, is it?

Does anyone think that days in excess of 25 pages are good for town?

Because we are headed there. I think extremely long days are bad for town, based on simple practicality.

---

Horribly scummy? I was asked different questions and I responded. If Guardian is a townie, why would we want to get rid of him because he's playing incorrectly?

This feels really pro-town, as contrasted with:

I thought/think that Guardian was a townie that was picked on unfairly and than had a couple scum jump on his bandwagon. He had 4 or 5 votes pretty quick before it slowed down.

I thought you weren't sure but wanted to give me a chance? Like NabNab... now I am town?

If his train of play continues I don't have a problem placing a vote on him but for now he reads to me as a frustrated townie who was hit by quite a few accusations and never had a chance to recover.

This is interesting to me... lynch the role, not the player, correct? If you thought/think I am town, why are you willing to vote me?

He's stayed consistent in admitting he has been picked on in other games and lynched unfairly

To an extent. This game, in the beginning, I played like a twat though, and I am admitting that was an abberation.

Ryan, a response to some of these quotes would be great.

---

I think the by-player format is quite good, as I used last time:

I hate this format, as I think drawing a NK to those you find townlike is a bad idea. Nevertheless, there is good stuff to comment on here, too.

Jordan: Quite suspiscious, to me... Seems to hide out of the limelight quite often, jumps in with certain points which don't always seem correct, and just seems incredibly consistent with scum. Unfortunatly, there's not anything solid I can pin this on, so it's not worth pushing any further at the moment, I think (Though I would like to hear a by-player analysis).

I agree here.

ryan: Frustrated newbie, again? Leaning towards scum on this guy. Many of his posts give off very strong vibes (Though, the problem is, they alternate between scum, newb and town).

I agree here, too.

flea: I'm be very surprised if flea was scum, because I haven't noticed any scum tells so far.

This is what I'm talking about.

Anyone who can give me a good reason for posting this, please do so.

If flea falls under attack, defend him. If not, then WHY?

---

I'm starting to wonder if ryan and Guardian are lovers. I agree with ST (we're in a game together with ryan at the moment), ryan's behavior regarding Guardian is uncharacteristic. He seems to be defending him while trying to seem like he isn't defending him.

Ryan's behavior is interesting, indeed.

Since player-by-players seem to be in favor today, I'll put in my 2 cents.

GAH! Behold the power of groupthink.

Guardian: Scummy

Since my post analyzing Guardian, he has claimed he was having a bad day, retracting his playstyle claim. This puts the pressure on him to shape up. If he does indeed act better, I may consider retracting my vote. But until then, he's still on the top of my list.

I ask you, as I asked ryan -- are you playing to lynch bad players, or lynch bad roles?

---

I'm starting to wonder if ryan and Guardian are lovers. I agree with ST (we're in a game together with ryan at the moment), ryan's behavior regarding Guardian is uncharacteristic. He seems to be defending him while trying to seem like he isn't defending him.

When you post tonight I hope you will explain why you would say something so horribly scummy! I think you are good enough of a player that I question whether are capable of making that kind of slip when you are scum, but I think it is prudent to

unvote vote:Numenorean7

for now. You think that both ryan and Guardian are scummy, and you think they could be lovers together.

He thinks they could be. I kind of see where you are coming from on finding Numenorean7 scummy, but his suspicions show that he does NOT know the setup of the game (a town tell) and not that he knows the setup of the game (a scum tell).

I agree with these evaluations.

Now,

that

is quite odd to me. You find Numenorean7 scummy, yet you agree with all of his evaluations of the other players in the game? That is quite a contradiction Adel; I find it hard to believe that you think that your top suspect also nailed his evaluations of the other players.

---

Oh god no, another player list. Why does everyone think that listing your neutral/likely town candidates is good? I think listing your main suspects is good. Someone try to convince me/explain.

-JordanA24
Hops on the darko bandwagon in 62, and after having his random vote on NabakovNabakov, gives no reasons to jump on darko. Trying to further a bandwagon here? Very possible. Tries to clarify his vote in 74 but basically uses the “if you don’t random vote you aren’t town” argument, which isn’t always true. Random voting is great for getting discussions going but also can start bandwagons on players way too early. Tries to explain to darko the positives of random voting. I don’t like 272, if Guardian is scum and I defended him that doesn’t mean I’m automatically scum, it’s called a mistake, I guess I should follow your game more closely and if you vote somebody who ends up town I should automatically watch you closer? I mean that is the reasoning you gave. 344 talks on pickemgenius’s posts having no content even after a rather lengthy game review where comments were consistently made, not sure if you hadn’t read that post or why you’d say that.

I agree with the setting ryan up thing here.

-xyzzy
299 throws suspicion on Sarcastro but I don’t believe you had a vote on him and not much evidence on WHY you think he’s scummy.

That is an interesting catch, ryan! Xyzzy, I look foreward to your return and do hope you address this.

-Numenorean7
171 is the first real post I’ve seen from him (not great) Jumps on the Guardian bandwagon per a Zindaras post (I’d rather hear your own opinions though)

Agree. People who jump on bandwagons without at least summarizing why they find people suspicious tend to be scum more than people who explain their votes if asked.

244 is a good one for Guardian as it shows who’s voted him and why, nicely put together and we’ll see if Guardian fixes these scum tells OR if he’s just scum and we found him WAY too easily.

I owe this post a re-read and possibly re-adressing.

368 is VERY weird indeed. Says Guardian and I are lovers BUT fingers us both scum? Uh, can you say slip up? Lovers win when the TOWN wins my friend

Hm, and I was finding this analysis so townlike too -- Ryan, not all lovers win with the town. Also, I already pointed out why I don't like how people are fingering Numenorean7 for this.

-Guardian

You go on to talk about me, but you don't explicitly say what you currently think about my alignment, as you do with most other players. What

do

you currently think about me?

Vote Adel

We are in a game together currently, and her style is the same there as it is here. Lots of questions, lots of asking to get the popular decision (so not to look bad) overly cautious, Fishing for roles. Soon we'll see her get into her numbers that it takes to lynch and probabilities and other info to look busy but not really be, just a distraction. I find her to be our scummiest player right now.

That is a really odd conclusion for me, as it doesn't really jive with your pbpa of her or of the other players, some of whom it seemed you found scummier than her.

-Adel
Post 59 saying “well this is all still fun and not real voting” was strange as there was enough information to definitely get the game going. Being in a game with Adel before she is very cautious when she’s scum, looks like caution already in this game. Post 92 drops a vote on NabakovNabakov and than says it’s NOT for his actions, uh……than why vote? Hops on the Guardian bandwagon in 195. Post 209 asks Zindaras and Sacred a strange question on how many games they’ve played with eachother, what are you digging for here Adel, OH you think one is scum…….how did that question help you solve that? I dislike 302 for obvious reasons, THAN restates it in 309 and throws my name in (probably because I called her on it not being necessary for her to state what she did on Sarcastro) 314 votes me just because (no real reasons)

Care to explain?

---

Anyway, Player-by-Player (This took about 2 hours, so if I miss out about 4-5 pages, then it's not my fault.):

Does

anyone

agree

with me that these are a bad idea? Anyone?

Guardian: I find his refusal to defend himself very noteworthy, that didn't look right at all.

I also found Post 246 interesting:

Two things worth noting:
1) xyzzy just posted elsewhere on the site. I really wonder what is up with that.
2) A lot of you need to unvote me and go find scum.

Trying to divert attention much? And telling the town to unvote him and "go find scum", his defense was rather minimal as well.

I also don't agree with him about short days. 50+ pages for Day 1 is ridiculous, but it's also a very rare occurence, and is definatly not evidence that all long days are bad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of this seems to be original content.

Nabakov: Upon reread, is actually appearing protown to me. There are very few things that catch my eye as scum tells, also. I also find her defense (Post 333) quite convincing as well.

And yet you saw it unfit to comment on my defense post, Jordan?

Ryan: A couple of things stick out for me here:

Strong FoS: darko

Why not vote? This is another common scumtell.

I would vote Adel at this point, but my vote appears to already be on her.

Um, you didn't know where your vote was?

Wow, way to misinterpret/misrepresent Guardian there. You either read that very poorly, or you're deliberatly making an already suspicious player seem even scummier. MAJOR SCUM TELL.

This, and your later one sentence response in the following pages, makes me think you are very scummy Jordan. You didn't bother to go back and read what actually happened, and I found ryan's suspicion AND his response very reasonable.

Sarcastro: The scummiest so far, I'll do this step by step:

So should we just vote out xyzzy just to make it easy on everyone?

I don't even know how to describe how terrible and rather scummy that idea is.

Vote: Darko

Darko's post was quite obviously a joke.

And Sarcastro's wasn't?

I have trouble believing that you're all incredibly dense scum, so I suppose it's likely that some or all of you are even-more-incredibly dense townies. If you are, please shape up right now and stop trying to lynch Xyzzy for such a mindboggling bad reason.

This looks like he's attempting to become a sort of "town leader" with this post (while still using bad logic).

You think lynching xyzzy was good logic?

Unvote, Vote: Guardian

FoS: Adel and Numenorean

I'm feeling lazy right now, so I'll justify these later. For now, I think people should stop talking about when the lovers should claim, etc. Why does it matter right now? We can address it when we get to the point where people think the lovers should claim. I'm pretty sure nobody's advocating that they claim right now, so we can drop it.

Oh dear oh dear, this is poor, poor posting, first of all you vote someone in the middle of a bandwagon against them WHILE SAYING YOU CAN'T BE BOTHERED BECAUSE YOU "FEEL LAZY". And second, you try and stifle some very on-topic conversation by saying "it's not relevant right now", which I don't think really matters, speculation doesn't hurt at all.

Eh, I think Sarcastro tends to be lazy and his scumhunting is not superb...

The scuminess... it's burning... my eyes...

Why is Guardian not dead yet? This game has far too many posts and far too few lynches.

I'm sad that you're scum, Nabakov. You're one of my favourite newbies.

Guardian, Nabakov, Adel, Pickem? No way it's that easy. But which one of them could possibly not be scum?

Your confidence makes me more uneasy about you, usually only scum are this confident since they are only ones that truly know for sure.

Eh, he usually acts like this. I'm not finding Sarcastro scummy right now, just terribly wrong. Sarcastro is easy to attack... but I'm not feeling it.

I would like Sarcastro to, you know, try and give reasons for his suspicions, though.

By the way, I want to note that I hate how I am letting myself on the line here -- Sarcastro can keep calling me scummy, and if I ever find him to be scummy later in the game, people are going to be all "OMG, you found him townlike, now scummy? Obv OMGUS." which is very bad logic. Oh well, such is life...

---

Post 379 of Sacred's I find suspicious, because of what

isn't

there. She is addressing NabNab's 375, point by point, and doesn't address this:

Yes, I admit to playing poorly/scummily. To deny it would be stupid, it's right there in the thread.

Sacred addresses the point right above and below this but not this. Why, Sacred?

---

I thought/think that Guardian was a townie that was picked on unfairly and than had a couple scum jump on his bandwagon. He had 4 or 5 votes pretty quick before it slowed down. If his train of play continues I don't have a problem placing a vote on him but for now he reads to me as a frustrated townie who was hit by quite a few accusations and never had a chance to recover. He's stayed consistent in admitting he has been picked on in other games and lynched unfairly

This is not what you said in your first post. In your first post, the only thing you do is point out that he

could

be town. You literally say "if he's town" and "if he is just a frustrated townie". Which says absolutely nothing. As we say here, if my auntie had a pair of balls, she'd be my uncle.

You don't say that he is town, you simply suggest it two, three times and leave it at that.

qft

I'm giving the guy a chance, why are you so quick to dismiss him as a townie?

I see you've decided to go and wildly misrepresent my posts as well.

Hmm. Well, you

are

voting me Zindaras. You think I'm town?

So should we just vote out xyzzy just to make it easy on everyone?

I don't even know how to describe how terrible and rather scummy that idea is.

Vote: Darko

Darko's post was quite obviously a joke.

Woah. That's not the vibe I got from your Post 62, nor your consecutive explainings.

Indeed.

Sacred is probably one of the better, if not one of the best, players in this game.

Also, I love her dearly and like saying things like that to her. What can I say? Every man has his vice.

This doesn't make her town -- does it?.

I said both of you seemed "savier" because I saw you both as fairly experienced players who would know better to link blatantly in the thread if your roles were actually linked. I'm not labeling you as scum or lovers. The fact that you two

do

have a significant meta-game relationship nullifies any findings.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Sacred's kind of a newbie (well, I guess everybody's a newbie compared to me >.>). She does a mighty fine job at hiding that fact, though.

A newbie, and a damn good newbie, eh?

Yes, I admit to playing poorly/scummily. To deny it would be stupid, it's right there in the thread.

I don't really like woe-is-me, especially at this early stage of the game.

Would you rather that he just never admitted it? Also, you haven't addressed my "woe-is-me" post. Do you think I should just have ignored my poor play earlier in the game?

Also, I find it somewhat interesting that you address this after Sacred missed it.

As for following a lead in the other cases, I'd agree with you had I not given reasons for my opinions, based on a re-read of the entire thread.
However, considering that the players are divised into 2-3 sides when it comes to those particular matters, I find it hard to consider my opinion lead by someone else. Can the same thing be said about all players who have the same opinions as I do? Are we all being lead by Zindaras?

Of course you are, you pitiful fools. They will suspect nothing, and then, Boom! Like a mouse trap I shall wrap my claws around the throats of the town and I shall extinguish all life! No one expects the Feline Inquisition!

Woops, did I just say that out loud?

You asked me earlier why leading the town is scummy. That's why.

---

The relationship between Zindie (girlie avatar) and Sacred (whose name I have trouble spelling) doesn't undermine my opinion of their townieness. If NabNab was playing as townie as Zindie, I would follow his lead and not have a problem with his leadership. I think allowing a natural leader who seems townie lead the group is a good thing.

Ok, I agree up to a point here. A leader who stifles other opinions is bad, or who everyone follows without question is bad, but leading in and of itself is not terribly bad.

That being said, I usually don't try and lead in games unless I have a really good vibe on who is scum -- leading the whole town astray is a bad thing.

I have a high opinion of the value of leadership, and that even scum-led leadership is better than none at all.

Scum leading the town is horrible. I cannot believe you think scum led leadership is better than none at all.

I was a NCO in the military, which may give me an unusual perspective on this.

Quite unusual...

ryan just made a good, long post, that I will have to review carefully when I have time. One immediate thing that I think I should point out is that I do

not

have a consistent playstyle. I haven't since my third game, or so. I have made it a point not to. I think it will allow me to improve faster as a player to experiment with different approaches to the game. I play chess with very different playstyles as well, especially since some of my opponents started to prepare against me by studying my games. It is always awesome when your opponent expects you to follow an aggressive line of the Sicilian, and you transpose into a time-sensitive defensive posture instead (here's looking at you Guardian, Sir Tornado, and the rest of Team Mafia Scum).

Hm, your playstyle here seems familiar to me .

---

He still knew his vote was on Adel though, didn't he.

He had to admit to knowing it and that his comment was "rhetorical effect" It wasn't a misrepresentation it was not having enough info to accurately make an assesment

I think Guardian's statement and the clarification it required is a null-tell. I think it was sloppy writing that may appear insincere, but is totally excusable.

I think you are misinterpreting ryan there -- I did at first. I think a few more words and some punctuation could have helped him out a lot.

He had to admit to knowing it and that his comment was "rhetorical effect"

for me to know that

. It wasn't a misrepresentation

on my part

it

me

was not having enough info to accurately make an assesment.

---
***
###
***
----


Wooh! Two hours later and I'm finished... but it was quite fun! Anyone who I asked for a response, I would appreciate one -- I put a bit of time and thought into this and I'd like to get some discussion going.

As for who I think is scummy after all that: My two top suspects are:

Jordan

: Jordan has been quite lurkish, hasn't contributed much original content, and has been quite happy to join the easy wagons. Jordan, you've earned my vote.

Unvote: Adel, Vote: JordanA24

. I'd definitely like to hear his response to the above that concerns him.

Adel

: I still find Adel suspicious for her inconsistencies, but I feel better about Jordan at this time. I'd like to see Adel address the questions I asked her, and my comments on her, particularly.

I don't feel as strongly about these players but:

ryan

: I am not sure on this one, but his actions re: me seemed more suspicious than NabNabs; he has made some good points and some bad ones. I want to hear more from him, including him addressing his posts.

Sacred

: I didn't like her inconsistency, and I think she is a good player, and I am getting bad vibes.

---And after this point,these players are just here because I want them to address specific things. They are still listed in most suspicious to least suspicious, however.

Numerean7

: I'd like you to address the question I asked you.

NabNab

: Not as bad as ryan, but I don't understand his flop on me. Nothing specific to address, just in general, I'd like to hear more about your actions re: me.

Xdaamno

: Not that suspicious of this one, his name is definitely here just to get his attention. Please respond to the question I asked "has Xdaamno responded to this yet?" above. .

Lastly, I'd remind everyone that we should not forget the lurkers. There are about five players who have definitely lurked so far, and as far as I know they could contain the four scum. We should not be too hasty with so many players not having meaningfully contributed yet.

Darko I didn't include in that, as he has started to contribute stuff, a bit of it has been incorrect though, and to be honest I didn't appreciate his snippy comment re: me.

And it is finally over...

[NabakovNabakov]

Right now, I'm just a little bit surprised at how both Zindy and Sacred chose to break down every little detail of the post I made about their connections (which was by Sacred's request). I really intented my comment on their apparent connection to be a one off statement, and I was a bit reluctant to have to PBPA it (as most of what I perceived would be better off played by Milt Jackson*). Even though I didn't mean to (Note how about half my comment was devoted to saying how unlikely it was that they were actually connected), I think I might have hit a nerve.

Oh, and Zindy, I'm not going for a "woe (or woah) is me," more of a "whoopsie." (Also, damn you and your gender confusion)

Num's 388 looks like he's trying to recuperate from his mistake. If you have 4 theories as to the alignment of a player, why post the most controversial one in isolation with no real backing? Stop trying to bullshit us.

Backtracking, Ryan's 371 struck a really scummy chord with me. Maybe he's just agressive or doesn't bother to read posts where people defend/explain themselves or others, but it's basically a list rehashing every scummy thing all players have been accused of doing with no mitigating factors and few town reads. He seems like he's trying to spread the suspcion around without actually comitting to much. I'm not sure how this effects his relationship with Guardian. He could have been defending him because he's a scumpartner (risky) or defending him because he's likely to be lynched and come up town, giving Ryan a handy "I told you so" moment.

Like I said, I'm playing a more tempered game right now, so I will just place an

FOS: Ryan

and look for more in coming posts and a limited re-read.

*Milt Jackson: Popular Jazz Bandleader and long time member of the Modern Jazz Quartet. His primary instrument was the vibraphones (commonly abbreviated as "vibes"), a mallet instrument similar to a xylophone, yet with greater tonal vibration and the option to activate a fan which would increase said vibration. Because of the nickname of his instrument, I've been waiting for like ever to drop his name in a Mafia game.

[Adel]

....I do know of two games where Guardian was scum. I would expect either of those players to try to lynch me or NK me if they are scum. Guardian has NK'd me before.

Note that you have never played a game with me prior to this one in which I have been town.

Would you expect me, as town, to not try and lynch you if I found you scummy? I don't like how you are subtly painting it that my being suspicious of you is a scumtell...

Now I am the one who is guilty of poor writing. I think that you and NabNab have a high enough opinion of me to try to get me killed if you are scum. My mislynch would be a scum tell on both of you if you advocated for it. I think the inverse is true as well. Since we have talked about it in-thread I do not think me getting NK'd would be much of a tell.

I'm getting to the rest of your questions. :goodposting:

[Guardian]

I think that you and NabNab have a high enough opinion of me to try to get me killed if you are scum.

I knew you were the vig in that other game that we shouldn't talk about too much, but highly advocated

not

killing you because you were leading the town in all the wrong directions. I NK'd you in that other game that we can talk about because I thought you were in the other scumgroup.

...I love you and your posting style, though !

My mislynch would be a scum tell on both of you if you advocated for it.

There are several problems with that statement, and they have been brought up previously... .

[NabakovNabakov]

Sonofa... that silly blurb on Bags (Milt Jackson for those not hip to the jive) made me completely miss Guardian's post.

There are definitely some good points in there, and if the blantant inconsistencies in Jordan's play (Darko was serious v. Darko was joking, NabNab's scummy v. NabNab's not scummy at all) check out, then it might be a good idea to pressure him.


I feel there's a good read on Sarc too. I don't like the way he's been playing, but it seems he always plays like this, just so long as he doesn't seem out to harm the town through his play (his insitence on Guardian as scum could go either way) I feel he's probably town.


I really don't see much wrong with full player by player posts. It's good to establish who you think is pro-town, it will engender some form of town leadership (which is largely a good thing) and a core of players who are more free to think and vote because their actions aren't being constantly scrutinized (Of course, that's only a good thing if the players commented on as pro-town actually

are

pro-town) Not to mention that it gives the Doc a better idea of who to protect. The scums can figure out who's the most competent townie without our help.

@Adel: What's this about a high opinion now?

(The two smilies are so's everybody knows it's a joke)

[Adel]

One thing I will say before delving in, is that I disapprove of people listing every player in the game and commenting on them. I am taking a page out of MeMe's book here -- she made this argument in a game where I was scum and she was town -- and I agree with her that it is

not

pro-town to draw attention to those you find to be highly pro-town.

I disagree with you here, but only slightly. I think when someone is protown it is important to voice that opinion, but it is not a pro-town tell to voice that opinion. I think pointing out who you think is very protown helps the doc more than it helps the scum. I admit that I gave into groupthink a little- I agree that saying who you think is a little pro-town is a possible mistake unless you are trying to derail a wagon by defending that player, and even then it is proably more pro-town to attack the attackers than it is to defend the defender.

I think Guardian is playing in a manner to make it hard to metagame him- he recycles similar arguments, and is very hard to get a scum tell on when he is scum. I think he often lets himself seem a little scummy on purpose.

Do you have any basis for this, whatsoever, other than pure speculation? Can you cite any game where I have acted scummy to make it hard to get a read on me? I would be quite interested to see it, because as far as I know I have never done so.

hmmm, I think this is another slight misunderstanding, and is probably my fault. As I see it there are two basic schools of thought. One says that a player should always try to be as pro-town as possible regardless of alignment, and the other says that it is better to be unclear in every game as to avoid that great big target from being on your back when you are town. I think I agree with the first school, even though I am experimenting (possibly in this game) with playing in accordance with the second school. I meant to identify you as a player who believes in the second school. I'm not accusing you of acting scummy for metagame purposes (although I can totally see why I gave that impression) I was just pointing out that your playstyle is not to be as townie as possible.

I'm starting to wonder if ryan and Guardian are lovers. I agree with ST (we're in a game together with ryan at the moment), ryan's behavior regarding Guardian is uncharacteristic. He seems to be defending him while trying to seem like he isn't defending him.

When you post tonight I hope you will explain why you would say something so horribly scummy! I think you are good enough of a player that I question whether are capable of making that kind of slip when you are scum, but I think it is prudent to

unvote vote:Numenorean7

for now. You think that both ryan and Guardian are scummy, and you think they could be lovers together.

He thinks they could be. I kind of see where you are coming from on finding Numenorean7 scummy, but his suspicions show that he does NOT know the setup of the game (a town tell) and not that he knows the setup of the game (a scum tell).

This is an Open game. We all know the setup. I see Num7's post as a big blunder by scum or an idiot newbie mistake, and I

know

Num7 is not an idiot newbie. 1/6*100=16.7 so 16.7% of lovers are scum while 3/13*100=23.1 or 23.1% of non-lovers are scum. Identifying potential lovers aids scum in a huge way, since NKing or lynching lovers is a big goal of their's. If he was something like 90% sure that ryan and Guardian were lovers and one of them was scum, then I would love to see that analysis in thread. That was not the case, so I am advocating Num7's lynch.

I agree with these evaluations.

Now,

that

is quite odd to me. You find Numenorean7 scummy, yet you agree with all of his evaluations of the other players in the game? That is quite a contradiction Adel; I find it hard to believe that you think that your top suspect also nailed his evaluations of the other players.

Why? Scum typically do offer accurate (based upon actions in game) assessments of players. It helps that they know everyone's alignment, so when a mislynch occurs they can say "I told you so" and it sets up the basis for a legitimate looking bus if it is called for later.

368 is VERY weird indeed. Says Guardian and I are lovers BUT fingers us both scum? Uh, can you say slip up? Lovers win when the TOWN wins my friend

Hm, and I was finding this analysis so townlike too -- Ryan, not all lovers win with the town. Also, I already pointed out why I don't like how people are fingering Numenorean7 for this.

I disagree with everything you said here.

Vote Adel

We are in a game together currently, and her style is the same there as it is here. Lots of questions, lots of asking to get the popular decision (so not to look bad) overly cautious, Fishing for roles. Soon we'll see her get into her numbers that it takes to lynch and probabilities and other info to look busy but not really be, just a distraction. I find her to be our scummiest player right now.

That is a really odd conclusion for me, as it doesn't really jive with your pbpa of her or of the other players, some of whom it seemed you found scummier than her.

I agree with this part though.

-Adel
Post 59 saying “well this is all still fun and not real voting” was strange as there was enough information to definitely get the game going. Being in a game with Adel before she is very cautious when she’s scum, looks like caution already in this game. Post 92 drops a vote on NabakovNabakov and than says it’s NOT for his actions, uh……than why vote? Hops on the Guardian bandwagon in 195. Post 209 asks Zindaras and Sacred a strange question on how many games they’ve played with eachother, what are you digging for here Adel, OH you think one is scum…….how did that question help you solve that? I dislike 302 for obvious reasons, THAN restates it in 309 and throws my name in (probably because I called her on it not being necessary for her to state what she did on Sarcastro) 314 votes me just because (no real reasons)

Care to explain?

It looks like a big 'ole scumtell to me. Did he really read my posts? It seems so inaccurate when you look at all of my posts that I find it hard for me to believe that he wasn't hunting for easter eggs he could mis-represent as scum tells.

I'm not finding Sarcastro scummy right now, just terribly wrong. Sarcastro is easy to attack... but I'm not feeling it.

I would like Sarcastro to, you know, try and give reasons for his suspicions, though.

By the way, I want to note that I hate how I am letting myself on the line here -- Sarcastro can keep calling me scummy, and if I ever find him to be scummy later in the game, people are going to be all "OMG, you found him townlike, now scummy? Obv OMGUS." which is very bad logic. Oh well, such is life...

I have a similar level of distaste for accusations of OMGUS. Your defense of Sarcastro doesn't seem at all scummy to me, but I would like for you to expand on it since I respect your judgment but I am not convinced by your case.

The relationship between Zindie (girlie avatar) and Sacred (whose name I have trouble spelling) doesn't undermine my opinion of their townieness. If NabNab was playing as townie as Zindie, I would follow his lead and not have a problem with his leadership. I think allowing a natural leader who seems townie lead the group is a good thing.

Ok, I agree up to a point here. A leader who stifles other opinions is bad, or who everyone follows without question is bad, but leading in and of itself is not terribly bad.

I don't see either problem with Zindie as leader, yet.

That being said, I usually don't try and lead in games unless I have a really good vibe on who is scum -- leading the whole town astray is a bad thing.

totally. It is essential for a good leader to have the courage and intellectual honesty to admit when they don't have the answers, and when they don't know what the best course of action to take is. Delegation of tasks and responsibilities, conflict resolution, and providing vision and perspective are other important actions a real leader accomplishes.

I have a high opinion of the value of leadership, and that even scum-led leadership is better than none at all.

Scum leading the town is horrible. I cannot believe you think scum led leadership is better than none at all.

A framework for communal success is a predictable result of successful leadership. I've had leaders who were incompetent and I've had leaders who were evil bastards, and I'll take the evil bastard over the incompetent any day. A leader who is scum trying to lead the town astray will almost always make a fatal, possibly game-breaking mistake- in my humble opinion.

ryan just made a good, long post, that I will have to review carefully when I have

{snip}

Team Mafia Scum).

Hm, your playstyle here seems familiar to me

and it is from a game where I didn't seem too townie and didn't get NK'd Night 1, right?

I still find Adel suspicious for her inconsistencies, but I feel better about Jordan at this time. I'd like to see Adel address the questions I asked her, and my comments on her, particularly.

Is there anything I missed? I hope we have the same alignment and can work together here. I believe in the value of teamwork just as much as I value leadership.

NabNab

: Not as bad as ryan, but I don't understand his flop on me. Nothing specific to address, just in general, I'd like to hear more about your actions re: me.

I would like you to address more fully why you don't agree with what ryan and I consider a scumtell

Lastly, I'd remind everyone that we should not forget the lurkers. There are about five players who have definitely lurked so far, and as far as I know they could contain the four scum. We should not be too hasty with so many players not having meaningfully contributed yet.

QFT I propose that we call them all out by name every five posts or so, especially since I can't think of their names off of the top of my head, and I think all of us should be able to.

As a final word, I think the player by player list of impressions makes it much easier for scum to blend in, and to know

which

opinions are safe to have, and makes network analysis much harder for true scumhunters. They should stop. Now.

Props to Guardian for pointing out the groupthink that was going on.

[Numenorean7]

@Guardian
Wow! What a wall of words. When I finish reading through it, I might have an opinion.

For one, lovers would not necessarily defend their partners, only if they think their partner is town (after all, there's a 20% chance for the partner to be scum, as opposed to a 22% chance for a random player). For two, I view things like that more as an indication of being scumbuddies.

Mafia don't necessarily defend their partners either. Lovers is just one explanation, and not (IMO) the most likely one. I just wanted to mention it.

I think any public speculation on who could be a lover with whom is a significant scum tell. My vote stays.

Num's 388 looks like he's trying to recuperate from his mistake. If you have 4 theories as to the alignment of a player, why post the most controversial one in isolation with no real backing? Stop trying to bullshit us.

Apparently speculating on possible lover connections has struck people as scummy. I don't quite see why. In 388 I was trying to defend myself from suspicion and elaborate on my thought process. Why mention the most controversial reason? Because it's a reason unique to this setup. It's not often that one person has such a strong motivation to defend another person.

Erg0's a pretty darn good Mafia player. However, I've gotten the impression from other games I've seen him that he's been rather busy lately. I expect him to contribute very nicely later on.

Good. We'll cut him some slack.

And now, for the rest of my player analysis:

ryan: Scummmy

Is annoying the heck out of my by using "than" instead of "then". On the anti-darko side near the beginning, but didn't vote. My biggest problem with ryan is that he is being less aggressive here than he is in the game I'm currently playing with him, and in a game I read which involved him. It could be a reaction against the wagoning in this game, but it rubs me the wrong way.

Sacred: pro-town

Warm-fuzzy with big eyes: how could she be Mafia?
Logical, thorough, and consistent. One of the best newbies I've ever met. I generally agree with her posts, and I don't see any scumtells.

Sarcastro: scummy/neutral

States everything very confidently, gives little evidence or reasoning. Advocates hasty lynches. Attacks everything in sight. So pervasive it's possibly just playstyle, but seems to be a better playstyle for scum than for town.

Sir Tornado: pro-town

Another anti-darko, but he unvotes to prevent a quicklynch (pro-town if you ask me). Good reasoning, solid logic. Playstyle consistent with what I've seen in other games. Pointed out how ryan has been uncharacteristically nice.

somestrangeflea: Neutral

Fleaboy has been acting kinda silly. He doesn't post much content. He does make some good points, but I'd like to hear more from him. Repeatedly comments that "Zindy wins the thread".

Xdaamno: Neutral

A lot like fleaboy. Fewer posts, a bit more content per post.

xyzzy: gone

He's camping. What can I say?

YogurtBandit: Lurker

Where are you?

Zindaras: Pro-town

As lots of people have commented, he's leading the town. I have no problem with this, as long as he's leading the town in the right direction. And he certainly hasn't robbed us of our free will: we're following him by choice, because he's usually right. Should identify himself as male given his pink avatar.

And now, a brief PBPA on NabNab. Post #n is the nth post by NabNab in chronological order.

#4: Jokingly follows darko's joking suggestion. Later gets in trouble for it.
#6: Votes darko. Why does NabNab see it as a joke when he does it, but not a joke when darko does it? Darko's post "I am not voting" was emphasizing the fact that he was being facetious, but NabNab took it the opposite way.
#7: FoS Guardian for not liking long days
#8: Seems to accept that Guardian is town with a scummy playstyle
#9: Turns around, saying that the defense is not valid coming from Guardian himself.
#10: Unvotes, "taking Guardian's defense at face value". Gives excellent tips on how to sound pro-town when you're scum.
#12: similar attitude toward darko, assuming he's a townie panicking.
#14: says he'll turn around and take darko at face value and Guardian at his word. What's turing around about it?
#15: "I didn't flip-flop towards Guardian."
#19&20: attacking sarcastro, good points
#21: admitting to scumminess. Pro-town points for what it's worth, but that's not much. A few good comments on the rest of the thread.
#22: playing a tempered game
#23: referencing ongoing games (what exactly is the rule about this?)
Nothing beyond #23 has given me much of a read.

NabNab started out rather scummy looking, which is atypical compared to his behavior in an ongiong game. He's admitted his scumminess and is doing better, but it will take him a while to live down his past. I'm watching for any further scumtells.

[Sir Tornado]

Can anybody (Sir T) provide a link to a game where Ryan shows wildly different behavior as claimed?

Can't. All the three games are currently on. Check out Mini 436, 466 and Open 21: Friends and Enemies.

Especially in Open 21, both me and ryan have been revealed as scum, and ryan was quite aggressive. That is why I had said that ryan would be my chief suspect only if Guardian comes up as scum. If he does not, then that point against ryan would disappear. (well, he could still be scum, but not because of the reason I am suspecting him right now)

-Sir Tornado
Makes a good point in 78 about when to claim. Goes after Darko and says he made a “newbie scum” mistake, which reading it I agree, darko looks extremely bad up to this point. Fingers Adel and NabakovNabakov as “obvious scum” I never like terms such as “obvious scum” although he does have some nice points made toward Adel in this. Notes some inconsistency in a couple of somestrangeflea’s posts, a good find indeed. 244 tells Darko if he needs to get a replacement to do it……….uh why, is your scum partner making you nervous with the amount of suspicions he has? Darko is just fine, we have quite a few others who haven’t posted anything up to this point. 311 puts out a scumlist/innocent list. The one thing 353 didn’t admit was that I am an aggressive scum hunter and although it is true I go after people who put up lame excuses (like Guardian) it was early enough that the guy deserved a chance to at least try and play the game, as I posted, I’m not above placing a vote on Guardian if it warrants later.

1. Check out the post where I fingered Adel and NabNab as "obvious scum" again. You would realise, given the quote I gave in it before the saying "they were obvious scum" that I was obviously joking when I said that. This is a classic case of over analysis.

2. I

DID NOT

post 244. Adel did!

3. I did not say anything about scumhunting because I am not in any game with you where you are a confirmed townie.

This analysis totally reeks of OMGUS.

[Adel]

Does

anyone

besides ryan agree with my scumtell against Num7?

If ryan is the only company I have on this, my vote is totally going to go back to ryan.