Newbie 1596: Exotic Birds (Game Over)

[Wanderer-nl]

I'd rather talk about Plotinus suddenly sheeping BBT with mofo but not saad, instead of it actually being a hammer.
I believe it's an accidental hammer, I don't believe Plotinus' explanation of thinking BBT is scum, then sheeping, then back to disliking again. It makes less sense than forgetting 2 RVS-votes on someone. Because mofo even didn't realize he was on L-1, I think it's likely enough BBT probably had no idea, and Plotinus just assumed BBT would count.
Although, I must add, with our previous game where bv310 misscounted and thought he was lynched when it was still L-1, it might be a little harder to believe you wouldn't count yourself.

[Wanderer-nl]

The only player currently pressured is saad and he's not doing anything.
I am willing to lynch him today just for being this anti-town.

VOTE: saad
DO SOMETHING
And this is not for a claim because you already claimed. This is for all the questions you ignored and all the things you didn't say.

This is L-1. State intent to hammer!

[Cephrir]

Vote Count 2.2

saad 3 (singersigner, Plotinus, Wanderer-nl)

Plotinus 1 (Wyvernite)

Not Voting 3 (Argos, saad, Skold)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline is in (expired on 2015-05-02 10:00:00)

.

[Skold]

I'll be back soon. So bloody sorry, I kinda had a massive fuck up with internet.
I'll probably be hammering saad though, because all the reasons I originally stated intent to hammer are still valid and as I read I feel off about him. I'll post another case in a bit.

But we seriously shouldn't be hammering this soon. While it is bad to ARTIFICIALLY inflate a day, I don't see a problem with waiting to at least half-way. So I'll declare intent to hammer but I'll post a couple cases I have in mind and wait for responses.

[singersigner]

SAAD THERE IS AN INTENT TO HAMMER ON YOU EITHER CLAIM OR POST YOUR CASE ON ME OR BOTH OR SOMETHING PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

[Plotinus]

COSIGNED.

saad said mafia would lurk until they were replaced and now he's doing that. It's been almost 2 days since we've heard from him.

Hi Skold! Welcome back. Glad you managed to pop in despite the internet troubles. I agree there's no harm in waiting a few days before you hammer, not until conversation stalls out anyway. if we reach a stage where we're all agreeing that there's nothing more to learn until Day 3 then it'll be time, but I don't think everyone's there yet. When you have time, I'm curious about any other reads you might have.

@Wanderer I don't know. I agree it was pretty lame. My early game opinions, when I have them, change a lot, sometimes back and forth with each post because I'm starting with so little information and there aren't any clear patterns yet, so every post can change my mind. I think it was part inertia --being ready to jump on the saad wagon only after that was over meant i was still ready to vote even though I should have been starting from 0 with mofo. I think I had some leftover inertia from wanting to vote saad. it was part voting past my bedtime. i decided after not to do any more voting after midnight. previously i was just against voting and going to bed to leave the thread unattended for 8 hours with possibly no time to unvote if things changed, but i wasn't going to bed i was just wandering to a different part of the internet and back again. so the new rule is midnight and it's about not doing things when i'm not thinking clearly.


singer, I had thought of RVS as being just an icebreaker type thing to get people talking, and I still think that's a large part of what it is, but I've been noticing people like BBT and elsewhere -- more experienced players in general I think -- who are able to form gut opinions of someone just based on "vote ____ because i like their avatar", and sometimes some of these opinions turn out to be right. I get that it's probably not something that can be taught but do you have any pointers anyway?

[Wanderer-nl]

Usually when everybody agrees on a lynch this fast, it means we're lynching town. However, with how saad is behaving this game I wouldn't see it past scum to be happily lynching the useless partner.

[singersigner]

@Skold...hopefully you'll be able to catch up soon. I'd like anyone not already voting saad to wait on a hammer until you do so.

@Plotinus...RVS is a conversation starter. More experienced players have racked up a list of personal ticks they've noticed people do more often as scum. Sure, it's not 100% accurate, but with that margin of error comes the reactions from both those you're voting and those who react to those votes. It all intertwines and you just have to let it happen organically, in my opinion. People who force reactions are more likely to get the inaccurate ones. In my case, I was trying to mimic someone's tell of the last person to confirm in a newbie game is likely scum. In this case it was wrong, and a power role...which...I guess could have the same reasoning (being that it's a role the player isn't familiar with and doesn't know how to play so they're more nervous to respond or post). Anyway, I don't really know what BBT picked up about saad but if it was actually seriously and wasn't just to gauge reactions, then he'll likely tell us after the game.

@Wanderer...that's an interesting observation. Where did you get that theory? (both the lynching town, and the bussing one)

[Argos]

Hey, my main problem with a saad lynch is that I don't think that even if he was stupid enough to target BBT that his partner would sign off on it. I'd like to see what situation could arise in which both are short-sighted enough to do that (we seem to mostly have a fairly intelligent crowd here and that nightkill seems like a pretty glaring mistake coming from a scumteam that included saad).

If this can be responded to adequately and saad doesn't have a compelling response when he returns I'd be okay with the lynch decision.

[singersigner]

(hint: it's probably someone MIA or new enough to not know any better)

[Wanderer-nl]

@singer: because I think scum would do more to stop the bandwagon on a scumbuddy. But with a scumbuddy that doesn't seem to care about the game? Yeah I'd consider bussing if I were scum.
And with Argos now expressing willingness to lynch saad, either someone is bussing (if saad is scum) or we are lynching town.

BBT on saad: 58

I'm getting the feeling you're not paying very much attention, are you not interested?

[saad]

ffs lol i got bored, sry bout that, no i dont want replacing.

case coming

[saad]

if anyone hammers me now they are confirmed scum

[saad]

i think i remember argos and wanderer being town.

[saad]

actually just replace me, get someone who will play the game, sorry for the inconvenience.

its singer and wyvernite

[saad]

just no motivation to play at all

[Wanderer-nl]

UNVOTE:

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't really like how Plotinus keeps sheeping votes. Day 1 BBT on mofo, and later said he was about to vote for saad when that bandwagon turned. Makes me wonder, why isn't Plotinus voting for her own scumreads? Today she has already followed singer twice, Skold first and then saad.
Argos and Skold should really post more content, and I'd also still like reads from singer.

Lets not get too relaxed while waiting for a replacement for saad and keep hunting. Nothing we can do about that slot now anyway.

[singersigner]

I've given the reads I have. Plotinus and you town, saad scum + maybe MIA skold scum? Everyone else has yet to do anything super identifying that gives me a confident read on them. If you're looking for more, you're gunna have to look elsewhere.

@saad...you'll have to ask the mod for an official replacement or I'll take this as an "AtE" (appeal to emotion) with regards to your replacing out since it isn't official, yet. Please don't leave?

[singersigner]

Ahhh...I don't really know, I always get really paranoid when it looks like someone is buttering me up and trying to get on my good side. Like they just want me to like them. Plotinus gives the appearance of eager town, but takes my word for granted without really questioning it, and I'm starting to wonder if that's because I haven't said anything that goes against his game plan, yet...

[Cephrir]

(I'm actually taking that as a replacement request)

[singersigner]

Um ok

unvote

[Plotinus]

Wanderer, what makes you think I'm still doing that? I gave reasons for voting saad. They're genuine. When I'm sheeping, my reason is going to be given as "I dunno" or "I thought ____ knew what they were talking about". I was the first to bring up Argos. It's true I didn't vote Argos but only because my suspicion of Argos is relational to saad. I don't know if I should keep my vote on saad so whoever replaces him knows we're serious (L-2 is more serious than L-3, which is where he'd be if I invoted).

I don't know whether it is better strategy to keep my vote on saad or switch to argos while we wait for saad to be replaced. If I thought it was better to switch to Argos I'd do that right now because Argos has had 11 posts so far, less than 4% of the thread. Argos gives reads when asked but otherwise hasn't been talking very much, hasn't been asking questions of everyone or trying to get to know us. The reason I'm not switching is that saad asking to be replaced has only made me more suspicious of his slot because:

people only wanna play as town, if i replace i'd likely get a scum slot from a guy who lurked because he flipped scum.

actually just replace me, get someone who will play the game, sorry for the inconvenience.

its singer and wyvernite

just no motivation to play at all

I don't think asking to be replaced is scummy in general because there's a lot of reasons a person might replace out, but if you yourself say that only mafia would get bored of the game and then get bored of the game, i'm going to connect the two.

I do think that whoever replaces saad is, entirely regardless of his rolepm, going to be able to believably say "I don't know what was up with my predecessor, sorry guys." and then the slot will improve because there's nowhere to go but up.

I do like the point you made that if 6 of us are willing to vote saad then at least one person has to be bussing. I guess the counter to that is that if I were scum and my partner were behaving like that I'd probably be driving his wagon, not just hopping on reluctantly at the end. Though maybe not as a newbie, it's hard to speculate what scumMe would have done last week when all I know is what townMe did. I don't think I would have had the confidence to do that strategy this game at this experience level if I were scum, because I've only thought of it just now but I am now planning to do it sometime in the future if I ever do finally get to play scum and get a lousy partner.

Spoiler: About Skold

As for Skold, well singer's reasoning made sense about him but it turned out he had internet troubles so it makes sense to wait until that's resolved. The entire case against him was inactivity and it turned out he had a real-life reason for that, which makes the inactivity null in my eyes. I'm okay with waiting a few real-life days to get to know Skold, because we do have time, but if we make it to day 3 without much more from him -- even if it's still due to internet troubles -- I'll run out of patience, though day 3 is a terrible time for a policy lynch so i don't know. I do think he still makes sense as a potential partner for saad.

Spoiler: About Wanderer

about Wanderer: we built up some rapport in our previous newbie game and I'm glad that I'm playing with her again this game because it's nice to have a familiar face. I guess we're both trying to figure out how our respective behaviours differ from last game and what that means if anything. She seems a lot like the wanderer from last game to me which is part of my townread on her. She asks people questions, she's trying to figure people out. She hasn't yet posted a list of who she's townreading and who she's scumreading and who is in the middle, and most everyone else has done that so far, but I think she just hasn't made up her mind yet.

it's kind of frustrating being accused of sheeping because then if I agree with someone I'm still sheeping and if I disagree with someone then maybe I'm just doing it in response the accusation (which is something I noticed saad doing a lot. if people called him on anything then in his very next post he'd try to do the opposite but it felt really forced.)

Spoiler: about Wyvernite

Wyvernite started by posting lots of theory stuff, and I'm not sure how much he's right about. He thinks questioning your scum/nullreads is scummy which is weird, and I guess explains why he's not asking people questions. He's posting his reads and stuff which is good. I don't agree with everything he says but I can see town motivation in his posts.

Spoiler: about singer

about singer. Singer is our IC. I ask her theory questions when I think of them because I want to get better at playing mafia. I'm townreading her because she's been active enough as IC because House said that scumICs tend to flake. I also do tend to agree with her posts because she explains her reasoning in ways i can understand.

Spoiler: about me and the derphammer incident

about me and the derphammer incident. I think it's absolutely fair that people are questioning me about it and trying to work out for themselves whether it was dumbtown or scum doing it. In one of singer's games it was town doing it. In wanderer and my last game scum lolhammered everyday (not by mistake). We shouldn't just be taking everybody at their word, but be scumhunting and trying to make sense of how things fit together.

But assuming I'm town, that means that two other people are scum and they do both benefit from continuing to wonder in public about my behaviour from last week. I don't think we've yet reached the point where

only

scum benefit from continuing to bring it up, because there are 4 other town-aligned players who also need to make up their minds and it's fair for them push me as hard as they need to until they reach some decision. But there will come a time when it will be to town's benefit to let it drop.

I think the rest of the town should decide when that point is, though, without my input, so I'm not going to bring this thought up again.

p-edit: ugh this is too long. i'll use some spoilers. sorry guys.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Plotinus: My reads are in 251.
Agreeing isn't a bad thing. Your explanation of wanting to vote for saad eventually at the moment the wagon turned to mofo, so you voted mofo instead just bothers me. How you thought BBT was scum for pursuing an early claim out of saad, but then hopping onto mofo while you were actually about to vote saad, and then disliking BBT's play again bothers me. The fact that you were *sheeping* singer today just supports this.
Oh and you don't have to change your vote, you could also just unvote.

[Plotinus]

i missed that when I went through your ISO again. sorry. thanks for linking it again.

Yeah, I could unvote, but saad's is the slot that I'm least happy with at the moment.

you're right about my day 1 behaviour. i played badly, i was overeager, i should have slowed down or gone to bed or something. i'm taking steps to prevent the inertia thing in the future. It's like walking into the kitchen and opening the fridge by mistake, except there are consequences for it that the fridge thing doesn't have.

I sheeped a lot last game too. It was hard for me have my own opinions then too. I kept giving everyone else's opinions by mistake. That doesn't excuse it because I do still need to work on not doing it but it really is a strong personality trait and a big part of how I learn things. I think if I can manage to sheep less over time it will be good for my real life personality too so I'm actively working on it.

I think my opinions about saad are my own opinions at this time because I went through his ISO.

I'm sure my opinions of Argos are my own because I was the first to talk about Argos.

My opinions of singer are based on something house said last game so that's still sheeping I guess but it removes any of the scum motivation in sheeping because I'm not trying to make house look better or worse in this game by agreeing with him because he's not playing (it would be funny if he replaced saad though now that i've said that).

My opinions of you is my own -- a mixture of pre-game impressions from our last game together and have you've been acting this game.

My opinions of skold did initially come from singer but I think we've diverged somewhat by now -- she's still scumreading the slot and I'm willing to give skold the benefit of the doubt about the activity thing so i've upgrade him to null for now.