Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[Perpetual Nonsense]

How come you're not mad at people breaking your unspoken rule #1?

Dunno. I don't feel a candle burning. I didn't remember what I posted for my rules. Did you think I was serious about those? Those were more a parody of myself.

That post just read to me as an earlygame attempt to look useful while not being at all useful, and your justification for it doesn't persuade me otherwise. Same with this worthless readlist.

How is that readlist worthless? when most haven't even posted one - which is more worthless than a readlist that is apparently worthless?

Also just looked and see people number-crunching about vengeful whatever. If all town have to be dead for scum to win, then bahahahaha

[Perpetual Nonsense]

Please call Gaiden out to post because he's lurking and hasn't posted in 2 days! I am off to Lowe's to buy a soaker hose.

[Perpetual Nonsense]

Totes p-dodging.
--Gaiden

[Flubbernugget]

nah but random thought - you and victordeangelo, from past games i think your styles and pace are somewhat similar and so it would get your thoughts and his flowing if you spoke fearlessly to each other. maybe. i think that sounds creepy but you know what i mean. plus victor is brick-wall hard to read and because of that is a good candidate to bounce thoughts off

Why do you think we're afraid of each other?

[Flubbernugget]

I've read and caught up. I have scum reads on wanderer and West9, slight scum reads on Perpetual Nonsense and Lucky2u, and town reads on vonflare and DCL.

wanderer is very articulate and her theory posts hit all the right notes, which is why I'm surprised her actual scum reads (DCL and vonflare) are so

bleh

, bland, and unremarkable. It's particularly bothersome that the reasons for the vonflare vote were sub par even by early-game standards, her scumhunting is also very limited in scope to just two people who happened to draw quite a bit of attention at the time, and her reads track suspiciously closely with nacho's reads.

DCL and Vonflare seem like perfectly fine scum candidates...do you disagree?

[MaxwellPuckett]

@enomis: I don't like Coyote's 225. It seems like he realized he said something a bit scummy and wanted to backtrack to avoid someone doing that for him. I'd need to see more from him to actually advocate a shot, but right now I don't like him.

Also: The game isn't at a stage where I find inactivity scummy. I think the active players are a mix of scum and town, so activity-related arguments would be null.

[Perpetual Nonsense]

I dont think you two are afraid of each other. I meant if you two are town, your playstyles potentially mesh well together

As both styles are held back in terms of holding cards close rather than offering opinions strongly

Also, I have no comments about nacho being gun bearer. Took on a vocal lleadership-y role early, and him being chosen - nothing special to see here imo

Mobile

[pablito]

Wanderer's post about vengeful mafia is making me think again.

@Pablito: I think goons would encourage vengeful to be shot because it kills town in the process. So there won't be as much resistance to a vengeful being shot than if a plain goon was in danger of being shot. Honestly, I don't really know, it also depends on how scum intend to play this game. Without them having a NK, it will be harder to sort things out.

This was the post that changed your mind? Why? What other suspicions do you have?

Yes #224 made me rethink. That was the only post that made me unvote. I am not opposed to wanderer being shot though at this point.

@Wanderer-nl

'Whoever else' includes dcl (129) so this just feels awkward to me. Also, if she really thinks there's scum in the people calling to shoot them, then why not check back to see who exactly it were instead of writing 'whoever else'?
Not a solid case but this early good enough for me to put a vote on.

VOTE: dcl

That vote, while it has justification, the act of the vote at that time just didn't feel good to me. @Wanderer, how do you feel about millar's post:

id kill dcl. i got a feeling

and this one?

dcl is my current thought for a shot on an active player, yeah

@vonflare - on your town read list you kinda put Maxwell, wanderer and me on your town reads. If Nacho were to shortlist all three of us then, what would you think and who would you support the most then? Also your post I think uses colors and I'm colorblind so I don't know what your colors mean and I don't care to look at the code in your post.

@Lucky2u - scumhunting in this game will be tough. How much weight do you hold in this vote?

Hi guys. I'm posting from my phone so formatting might be awkward. In reply to vonflare's characterisation of my earlier post as something like 'mostly wifom', I would point out that I did try to evaluate all the possibilities and say which I preferred. Read it again if you want.

And, to business:

VOTE: Wanderer-nl

@MaxwellPuckett - how do you feel about the implementation of a system that is more than just votes? How do you feel about the referenda system I referred to in post #198?

[West9]

Wow, who wants to read 10 pages of what's probably a bunch of popcorn-related nonsense?

Wouldn't it be great if I could just sheep my broski Nacho all game? I mean, who would know?

You still not planning on reading up?

I've read and caught up. I have scum reads on wanderer and West9, slight scum reads on Perpetual Nonsense and Lucky2u, and town reads on vonflare and DCL.

Are the town reads are because your scumreads are voting for them or...?

Bert is Perpetual Nonsense, right? Just checking.

How come you're not mad at people breaking your unspoken rule #1?

Dunno. I don't feel a candle burning. I didn't remember what I posted for my rules. Did you think I was serious about those? Those were more a parody of myself.

It was "no begging for the gun."

That post just read to me as an earlygame attempt to look useful while not being at all useful, and your justification for it doesn't persuade me otherwise. Same with this worthless readlist.

How is that readlist worthless? when most haven't even posted one - which is more worthless than a readlist that is apparently worthless?

Because Vonflare himself said it was worthless (222). Also, it's not like options are confined "post a readlist" or "don't post a readlist."

[West9]

ebwop

Also, it's not like options are confined to "post a readlist" or "don't post a readlist."

[West9]

I like CB's posts so far. Good town feelings from them.

Heartless' active scumhunting is also promising.

Enomis' shitposting was endearing but now I'm kinda yawning at it. I don't think it's scummy but I don't like it in general.

I think my only proper scumread at the moment is RedCoyote.


This game is interesting in that shooting mafia does not actually advance our win condition. It only does if we hit vengeful. But shooting town is bad, obviously, and there's a time limit. So the normal mafia are there as safe hits. I think this means the normal mafia will play less carefully, as CB said. I think the vengefuls will avoid risky posts. Of course me saying this might change all that, I don't know. If there are any actual differences between the playstyle of the different kinds of mafia, they will be very slight. I DO think this will matter endgame, though, just maybe not as much now, with so many players to sift through. For now, finding a safe shot for nacho is priority. (I'd count vengefuls as a safe shot of course)

I agree about enomis, but I can't tell what you're trying to say with this last paragraph besides "nacho should shoot scum"

[Wanderer-nl]

@Pablito: Well, the posts in itself don't tell me much right now. I could see millar's posts coming from scum, barely any thoughts. It doesn't matter what I say about nacho, he's conftown so I should read all his posts as town-motivated even if I were scum.

I know I'm lacking content and am close to lurking. I haven't found motivation yet for going through iso's. I do have some early townreads on CB, Pablito, Maxwell and Nonsense started to look better.

[CB]

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Would it change your thinking at all if I pointed out that Mafia have the same win condition we do and were probably just as confused as we were until recently?

It is possible that they just assumed that they were playing towards parity but I think that is unlikely the wording in the role pm doesn't seem that ambiguous and I think that there is a pretty good chance that at least one of the mafia picked up on it. I think the reason it took so long to be brought up in this thread is because I don't think many town actually read the Mafia role PMs in the OP.

@CB
I am really liking nachomamma's stint as gun bearer so far. I wish nacho can be in the game the entire time but we know this is impossible. But at the same time a town should never put the entire game on the hands of one person. as such we all need to contribute in good ways. So CB try to emulate what you like about nachomamma and do the same then we can rely on you later in the game too. Because this game is really about finding vengeful. Nacho getting one and dying is a good sacrifice.

I am feeling a little uneasy about this post. The tone of it suggests you know my alignment.

@Heartless, I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without

blatantly dropping towntells.

What do you mean by that?

That I wanted to respond and typed several things all of which were towntells and in an earlier game I was called out on dropping towntells so I'm careful in doing that now.

These are just tells to identify you as town? you wrote up a post but felt it had content that would be construed as towny and that would get you scum read so you deleted it?

I don't want to OMGUS him

Where be CB's aura of towniness, then?

[Wanderer-nl]

So I originally didn't really understand how this setup worked so I need to reevaluate. Since Mafia goons survival do not count towards mafia's win condition expect a lot busting for town credit this game.

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Also right now I think Wanderer is town here. I like her lack of response to the pressure put on her like she didn't even care. I feel like town here doesn't care as much if they get shot since they don't die and they just become the new gunbearer.

I dislike Flubber for similar reasons since he appears really defensive when being pressured. I understand the pressure against him is pretty weak and getting shot as town is against town's win condition but I still find it hard to get worked up over.

This^
Except there's a slight difference: I don't want to be shot, I just don't care how I come accross.

[MaxwellPuckett]

West9: You're right, that last paragraph doesn't really say much. I was trying to say that late-game, there will be differences in playstyle for mafia goons and vengefuls. But even that isn't that useful, you're right, since the only thing we really need to worry about is 'don't hit town', rather than 'hit vengefuls'. In retrospect it's not very useful.

About Wanderer-nl: I kind of understand what Wanderer is saying right now, but I think she means 'in a previous game, I was told I was dropping too many towntells, aka trying too hard to look town, so I'm going to attempt to tone that down this game". It was worded really badly and doesn't make sense without this context, I think. Wanderer, am I correct, or did I misinterpret?

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

wanderer is very articulate and her theory posts hit all the right notes, which is why I'm surprised her actual scum reads (DCL and vonflare) are so bleh, bland, and unremarkable. It's particularly bothersome that the reasons for the vonflare vote were sub par even by early-game standards, her scumhunting is also very limited in scope to just two people who happened to draw quite a bit of attention at the time, and her reads track suspiciously closely with nacho's reads.

I agree that Wanderer is articulate and generally has a good grasp of theory, but she has been playing on site for less than two months so I'm guessing that a bit of leniency is warranted. I disagree that her reads are "bleh" for early-game standards, they seem pretty par for the course although I don't like that her focus has been limited to popular targets.

But then there's things like this:

I like this for town. Also, it made me smile.

It's funny Vonflare is townreading me for it. Guess I did get something out of my vote.

Yeah so I was just thinking that it's actually kind of weird Vonflare declared me town because he could have easily painted me scum, but that doesn't really matter in this setup.

@Heartless, I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without blatantly dropping towntells.

Which while they don't necessarily have a lot of logic supporting this feeling (although the last quote would be a pretty brazen play from new-scum in a game like this), still feels good to me and still makes me not wanna shoot the slot.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah,

phooey

!

Spoiler:

Of course you think they're great reads, ding dong. They're yours. In this case, the most readable thing she can do is produce

legit

reads and nothing you quoted indicates such.

[Flubbernugget]

Huehuehue ding dong

[pablito]

@CB
I am really liking nachomamma's stint as gun bearer so far. I wish nacho can be in the game the entire time but we know this is impossible. But at the same time a town should never put the entire game on the hands of one person. as such we all need to contribute in good ways. So CB try to emulate what you like about nachomamma and do the same then we can rely on you later in the game too. Because this game is really about finding vengeful. Nacho getting one and dying is a good sacrifice.

I am feeling a little uneasy about this post. The tone of it suggests you know my alignment.

Yes, CB, I read you as town. I assuming you're town. But at the same time, in my post, I'm encouraging you to be good town. Your skepticism of me is healthy, and makes me read you further as town. However, if you like Nacho, be like Nacho. I think you're capable of leading good discussions later. And that is one of your worries.


@MaxwellPuckett - Please don't forget to answer my question in #282. Thanks.

[MaxwellPuckett]

pablito: Sorry, completely missed that one. I like that system you alluded to, actually. It makes it extremely difficult for scum to twist their earlier words to mean something else later, as it makes it very clear what their thought process is. If implemented, we would all have to do it, though: perhaps with some kind of template that is used to open and close a case on another player, like in that example you quoted. Using it, you would accuse someone as scum (a serious accusation, you are suggesting to the gunbearer to shoot this person), give your case, and launch a discussion where other players have to give their opinions on the current case. This would also mean that scum would have to make a decision about where to take the case. If it's against their fellow scum, they can't be wishy washy then decide to bus at the last second in an effort to look town, and if they push too hard, they may sway town in an unfavourable way and get their scumbuddy lynched. It would put them on edge and make them more likely to slip up, in addition to giving lots of ammo to catch them in a lie.

TL-DR: Good idea.

[Heartless]

Are the town reads are because your scumreads are voting for them or...?

Not quite, but that's the main gist of it. I'll go into those if I have time. Though from their posting and general dynamics, I would predict both would draw scum aggro.

[julienvonwolfe]

I just dug up what Pablo's system is. If we do force people to comment on the gunbearer's shortlist that works for me.

I'm a bit 'meh' on the last few pages of discussion. Nothing jumps out at me overmuch. Wanderer's explained a few things, reasonably, I think, but I still disagree with her vonflare vote and so my vote on her remains.

Speaking of which, flubber seems to still be fine with going dcl and vonflare - why? To my reading the dcl thing stemmed out of a weird aversion to the deadline/planned pace of the game (go play a smaller/speedier game next time?); to interpret that as scummy you have to think that he's trying to hurt the town by, what, making us play a faster paced game? My thinking on vonflare is that people are making too much of the ninja kerfuffle, as I can't see how that matters, but whatever.

I have more town reads than scum reads at the moment. I'm annoyed at the amount of lurking.

[Perpetual Nonsense]

Wow, who wants to read 10 pages of what's probably a bunch of popcorn-related nonsense?

Wouldn't it be great if I could just sheep my broski Nacho all game? I mean, who would know?

VOTE: RedCoyote

[Perpetual Nonsense]

Good morning! What's up?

[Wanderer-nl]

Finally got into iso's..

CB: 158 I don't think mafia would talk about GB-strategy 238 looks town too and everything after. Not a lot of posts which is nice, no fluff just content.

dcl: 108 I didn't like so much but then 109 made it ok again. 137 don't like this and 146. 150 was ok. A lot of fluff at the start, post 150 was the only reads dcl posted. Meh. Doesn't look like she plans on doing much this game.

enomis: I'm not even going to try to read him. Just type in fucking letters please.

Flubber: I believe his 240 I like how Flubber questioned Vonflare on his list 187, 191 and 192. Not much to go on, short posts with no real reads so null.

Heartless: 258 was nice post of thoughts. 290 yes, absolutely correct. That's what I always tell my scumreads too. Other posts weren't worth commenting on imo. Slight town even though little to go on, the thoughts that were shared felt like they came from town.

Jeanne: no content at all. Null.

Julien: 170 talking GB-strat, same as with CB; scum prolly won't. 237 his case on me looked valid to me but upon rereading I don't know I think it could also come from scum. He also missed my reason for voting Vonflare I think because it had nothing to do with the ninja-stuff but anyway. Kinda null-scum because he's focussing on me, and on Flubber scumreading Vonflare and dcl.

lucky: hasn't posted any content. I could say I didn't like his 104 because it's an excuse for bad scumhunting but that was already said so I'll shut up now. Null.

Maxwell: 149 looks town to me, which I already posted somewhere. 263 stood out to me as towny too. I think Maxwell is very clear in his thoughts and he engages with other players in almost all his posts, so townread on him.

millar: no content, mostly fluff, null-scum because active lurking.

nacho: is conftown. I like how he's sharing his thoughts with everyone and listening to all input instead of saying I'm GB I decide.

Pablito: I really liked 198 about his theory. 254 looks town to me too, scum wouldn't unvote on a feeling but try to make my words look bad. 282 I like how he's engaging with others, asking questions. Townread.

Nonsense: nothing in their posts stands out to me. I said earlier they're starting to look better, but I have to take that back. They're responding to things said in the thread, not really coming up with their own ideas/theories. Right now I'm null.

Coyote: No content, didn't even know the setup until his 255 which is also his last. Null

Victor: 5 posts: confirm, naked vote, 'yep', naked vote, announcing V/LA. I could call this scum actually, but officially null.

Vonflare: I'm being lazy and copy something from my own 224:

Vonflare is looking very defensive to me. Town should always stay open to changing their reads when new info appears. His 222 seems overly defensive and frustrated and is like an excuse for suddenly changing his reads. Because in 221 he tells Flubber he doesn't have a scumread on him, but in his readslist he does.. Yeah, he can be shot.

And from 239:

Yeah so I was just thinking that it's actually kind of weird Vonflare declared me town because he could have easily painted me scum, but that doesn't really matter in this setup. If the GB shoots other town, GB dies and target becomes new GB. I have absolutely no experience with this kind of setup, but my prediction is scum is going to be very careful when FoS'ing or even voting a GB-target.

I'll explain this one a little more since there seemed to be some confusion.
If Vonflare is scum and I'm scum: he wants me clear so he calls me town.
If Vonflare is scum and I'm town: in a normal day/night setup he would likely accuse me of a weird vote on dcl and scumread me, hoping town agrees and get me misslynched. Doesn't work in this setup because town doesn't decide in the end, but the GB. In this setup, I'm going on the assumption scum are not going to accuse town on little things because scum already know who's town and are going to be careful lying.
If Vonflare is town and I am town: Maybe he just hasn't thought a lot about what my content was and just based his townread on the fact that I had reads at all.
If Vonflare is town and I am scum: Same as above.
With these explanations it looks like I have no reason to think Vonflare is scum anymore. But I don't like how he handles his readslist, he posted it and then changes it right after. Yes, reads change, but usually not that fast.

west: 171 feels more like filler-questions, but it was early and one of the first more serious posts I think (a lot of fluff the first pages!) so in that light it's ok I guess. 194 and 202 is west pushing on Vonflare's being ninja'd. Which is ok to me because Vonflare kept whining he got ninja'd. Then in 208 west votes Vonflare because of Ninja thing, and oh also because of the worthless readslist. I don't know west, I've come up with circumstances that make it ok what you did but it still feels like you picked something out to focus on (re Vonflare) and are keeping to it. You're not really responding to the other things that were said about Vonflare. 283 I liked his question to Heartless because I felt the same way, but I don't get the part to Nonsense about the breaking rules thing. I have this feeling west is trying to look critical but isn't really. Would like to see him share more thoughts. Right now null with a good chance of turning scum.

The difference between enomis, jeanne, lucky, coyote as null-reads on no-content, and millar and a little Victor as null-scum on no-content is because millar and Victor have voted more than once.

[vonflare]

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