New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[House]

Yoh House.
Tell me whether I should ISOdive Taly or Bookitty.
Then talk at me about your Ozgin read atm.

P-Edit: nvm.

ISO & Meta Bookitty.

I have a terminal townread on her & find it nigh impossible to bring myself to lynch her.

[Bookitty]

Well, I didn't write that, so it's incorrect in the first place.

I think that it's a little different than that. The most likely scenario to ME is that Ozgin saw the initial role PM and thought, hey, I can earn some towncred by "townslipping" and saying Citizen instead of town. Then people will read me as town because I accidentally used the term Citizen instead of town. But then he says that he meant it as town-alignment, not specifically VT. The same rules post that had the role PM also mentioned that Citizen=VT, but he didn't seem to know that until it was pointed out that Citizen DID = VT. If he was actually a Citizen, then he would know that, I would think.

So then he tries to say it's something he always says. But it's not. It's not something he's done before on this site and it's not something he can point to on any other site.

The shifting explanations and the forced nature (and repetition) of the citizen thing when he's never used that term for town before is scummier than anything else anyone has done imo.

[House]

Could you talk at me about your read on Prolapsed?

That all happened during my period of IDGAF.

[Cheetory6]

The timing of it just isn't even valuable to scum as a faketownslip though?
Why couldn't the shifting meaning of it be him trying to not claim VT as VT?

ISO & Meta Bookitty.

I mean, I've played with Boo before.
Is there a game in particular you're wanting me to look at?

[Taly]

Oh

Seeing a flip from either Lala and Ozgin would seem to clear a lot of adversity here.

But House has said that Lala is likely overwhelmed noobtown. But he also said that if Lala hasn't stepped it up D2, then he would be fine with voting her.
But Varsoon has said that he could clear Ozgin tonight. But assuming scum don't want this to happen, then it could prevent Varsoon from doing it.

However, Varsoons read on House hasn't been cleared yet - and it doesn't appear to be a townie read.
Along with House being OK with Varsoons lynch here.

There is way too much conflicting data. This isn't even considering who is on each wagon, and their reasons.

Hey House, can you explain to me your vote on RC? Or why exactly you would want to lynch them?

>>>>>

I'm getting pretty edgy right now 5 to 6 people have placed some suspicion on me but only half of them have given just a FEW sentences as to why they think that.

Everyone that has townread me so far has played with me before. Or seen my play before.

[Bookitty]

The timing of it just isn't even valuable to scum as a faketownslip though?

How do you figure?

I don't think Ozgin thought it would get him the attention it did, no, but developing towncred is always valuable, isn't it?

[Cheetory6]

Like, it just doesn't match the mindset and the timing of scum on a 3< scumteam in a 21 person game at the very start of D1 when there's no heat on you.
There's no reason for him to do it.
On a scumteam that small in a game this big, it just feels so much more likely that scum would try to assert themselves in a manner which would minimize chance of drawing attention to oneself. Ozgin calculatedly claiming VT doesn't match that expectation at all.

[House]

Hey House, can you explain to me your vote on RC? Or why exactly you would want to lynch them?

Harken back to post 1280. RC notes suspicion of lalaladucks.

Leap ye forward to post 1311. RC votes lalaladucks.

What is missing between 1280 & 1311?

[Bookitty]

No, you're missing a point.

I don't think Ozgin at ALL knew he was claiming VT. I don't think he read that at all when he came up with the "I'll use citizen and then it will be perceived as a townslip" thing. His later play bears that out; he denied being a VT, remember?

I think he read the sample role PM, misunderstood it and made his fake "townslip" which then got him into all kinds of hot water and resulted in several different stories (if it's his dialect, surely he USES his dialect, otherwise why would it BE his dialect?) about the situation.

I don't think he was playing for attention. But I ask you: If Ozgin were a Citizen, wouldn't he know that that meant VT? If he's not a Citizen, why would he use it to describe himself and then lie about it to us later?

[Cheetory6]

Ozgin was just in a game where VTs were called Citizen.
Again, why is he not actual VT who realizes he fucked up by claiming VT and is trying to backtrack to make it seem like he didn't just narrow scumkills?

[Bookitty]

Ozgin was just in a game where VTs were called Citizen.
Again, why is he not actual VT who realizes he fucked up by claiming VT and is trying to backtrack to make it seem like he didn't just narrow scumkills?

First, link me up.

Second, if that's the case, why wouldn't he DOUBLY know he was claiming VT?

[Cheetory6]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60652
I'm saying why is it not that he makes a mistake as VT and then is trying to cover it up because he knows it was a mistake and he's narrowed nightkills.

[House]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60652
I'm saying why is it not that he makes a mistake as VT and then is trying to cover it up because he knows it was a mistake and he's narrowed nightkills.

Because the more he flounders, the less likely scum will kill him anyway because he's too prime as a mislynch target?

[Cheetory6]

Do you think Ozgin realizes this though?

[Taly]

Hey House, can you explain to me your vote on RC? Or why exactly you would want to lynch them?

Harken back to post 1280. RC notes suspicion of lalaladucks.

Leap ye forward to post 1311. RC votes lalaladucks.

What is missing between 1280 & 1311?

Absolutely no reasoning, engaging, or questions of any kind?

!!!!

Now I see what Lala meant here.

My mislynch was already being set up a few hundred posts in.

Now I understand how the Lala wagon isn't entirely artificial.

lalaladucks

dragonspawn

,

RadiantCowbells,

Boonskiies

,

Ozgin

,

Varsoon, Silverwolf

Going to look a little deeper into RC ad Ozgin.

Ozgin

Titus

,

T S O

,

Egg

,

Bookitty

,

House

,

FA_Q2

,

Taly

,

Prolapsed Brain

Cheetory, I know House asked a similar question, but I'd like to see your meta-read on whether Boo is specifically like town or scum.

Also, can I encourage votes on TSO? Maybe that'll get him to do shit.

House, assuming you believe Ozgin is more likely town - what made you come to this?

I'm still thinking Lala and/or Ozgin are likely better lynches, but with all these new info. I'm becoming increasingly unsure. I'd rather lynch Ozgin at the moment but that could change.

[Bookitty]

@Cheetory: Do you think that Ozgin knew that Citizen referred to a specific role here when he made his claims?

If he did, then why would he make that claim and then back off it and try to disavow it?

If he didn't, then where did he come up with the Citizen thing in the first place? He was scum in the game you linked and never used the term once. This is the first verifiable use of something he called his dialect.

Also, if he didn't, then do you think he read his role PM?

These things are inconsistent. I feel like it's obvious that they are.

[Taly]

"Now I understand how the Lala wagon isn't entirely artificial."

Or organic, I mean.

Either way, there's likely scum on both wagons, and I think there is possibly scum between Lala and Ozgin.

[Taly]

I'm closer to thinking Lala-town.

Sigh, multi-posts. Sorry X_X

[Egg]

Anen, I meant where I asked if he had day talk and you said his answer could be faked. I personally think it's more likely he's lazy town who didn't realize day talk exists in this game.

Anen, if you are town gtfo lala and recognize drowning newbtown when you see it.Large games are a lot for new players to take in. Read her posts in context.

Large games are especially tough for new players without daytalk with scumbuddies telling them exactly how to get pressure off of them too. Lala is either town or has shit scumbuddies.

House, you have Boon as town and Dragonspawn as scum. You realize this makes absolutely no sense, right?

Unless he is bulletproof or Acetic or whatever

Holy fuck with the rolefishing...

Maybe it's all in perspective, but the counterwagons that keep being proposed just make Ozgin look even more like a sure thing to me.

If you and Titus are going to keep saying things like this, you'll have to point out where Ozgin's scumbuddies are on these wagons.

Dragonspawn, why would scum fake reads with another team to look for?

Post 1476 by Bookitty is exactly why we should be lynching Ozgin.

Cheet, I don't get your timing issue. It was early in the game and if it was something he wanted to do from the beginning, it makes perfect sense.

[Cheetory6]

I feel like we may be talking in circles here. :/

Do you think that Ozgin knew that Citizen referred to a specific role here when he made his claims?

Yes. I don't think he claimed on purpose. Like I think the thought process was something like: "I feel this way because I am this thing. I am explaining this because I'm a dummy who isn't realizing that I'm literally claiming atm."

If he did, then why would he make that claim and then back off it and try to disavow it?

Because I don't think he claimed on purpose and I think he realized that it was anti-town to claim citizen.
Other two questions don't apply to Ozgin being town.

P-Edit: I just don't know why he would want to do it as scum. It doesn't seem like something he would want to do from my experience of having literally played scum with him.

[Bookitty]

Then why lie (and yes, he lied) to us when he realised his mistake, Cheetory? Lying IS alignment-indicative, regardless of whether we still enforce lynch all liars or not.

Why claim it's a dialect he always uses when he didn't even use it in the game you linked?

Have you ever been in a game in which scum fake town-slipped, Cheetory? Why do you think they did it?

[Cheetory6]

i) Boo I'm trying real hard to be patient on this one, lol. Let's say jeffrey is a vt. He accidentally says that he's a vt in an awkward way. People raise eyebrows at him. He knows that it's anti-town to claim vt because it narrows the nightkillpool. Thus, he flails to try and get people to believe that he's not actually a vt and that he didn't mean it, because then he's fixed what he did wrong. Savvy?
ii) Yes, I still don't think the manner in which ozgin did it here makes sense as coming from scum.

[Cheetory6]

Like, I'm not denying it's possible Ozgin is scum, I'm not stupidly overconfident on this, I'm just saying that's where I'm at right now and I'd appreciate it if people could give me the botd enough to at least consider where I'm coming from.

[SilverWolf]

You guys do realize that this all boils down to what Ozgin was thinking when he said Citizen right?

Then guessing if he was scum faking a townslip or Citizen slipping his role right?

I really don't know how we are going to resolve which one he did.

[Bookitty]

I'd appreciate it if people could give me the botd enough to at least consider where I'm coming from.

I don't see what you're getting at here. I think you're wrong, but how am I not giving you the benefit of the doubt? Arguing with you IS giving you the benefit of the doubt; if I thought you were scum, why would I bother?

@Silverwolf: A lynch is out of the question? That would settle it, wouldn't it?