New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Cheetory6]

Like, not necessarily directing it at you.
I just mean it feels like most people are just kind of covering their eyes and saying "Ozgin lynch a-go!"
I do appreciate that you're willing to engage me on this, don't get me wrong. Just frustrated that it feels really clear to me and I'm apparently not doing a good job of explaining it.

[Egg]

Silverwolf I'm pretty sure that in 7 years of playing mafia, at one point 10 games at a time being my minimum, I've never seen a VT "slip their role".

[Cheetory6]

q.q
are you sure?

[dragonspawn]

If the scum has been coasting all game and his or her partners are getting nervous and telling them to post a list why would we expect it to be genuine?

but lets say the list in genuine. Then in my opinion the vote isn't. And I don't buy the it's between oz and prolapsed defense because we aren't close enough to the deadline to ignore scum read to vote for someone else.

besides as house keeps reminding us, ducks is a newb, maybe the fake list is because she is unfamiliar with multiball (I have no knowledge of her previous experience here).

the fact is something is off here.

earlier in the game I asked Titus what we should think if a player is not scum hunting when even the scum should be scum hunting. Duck is doing just that.

[Titus]

Cheetory, playing groupscum is all about crafting a narrative. If you can weave all the facts together, while lying as little as possible, that's what should happen.

Here, Ozginscum drew scum right after having played with most of you. So he can't repeat the same pattern as before precisely. The citizen claim, by its proximity to the hood claim (lonely) attempts to subtly suggest that they are different. He takes the town slip credit as well despite this sort of thing never happening. Plus, he has a decent coach on scum narratives IMO in Varsoon. By setting up a by claim, a low powered scum can essentially confirm themselves later. Who would fake a claim since post 102? That's absurd.

Here, though I am thinking Ozgin is ninja or goon. Both make sense for such a VT claim. If Ozgin is tracked, he comes back as VT. So see told you I was citizen.

His renouncing and reclaiming citizen fits as well. Town would be frustrated at their slip but not try to renounce. When Ozgin faces pressure again he "breaks" and continues painting me as the big bad villain. That's all you can do if an obvious townie tunnels you and you cannot get a wagon on them.

Here, we have Varsoon PR fishing me in #907. I said I knew Citizen was a VT moniker due to my off-site experience and reading the first post. Varsoon quickly lets go of the PR or scum claim. Soon thereafter, Ozgin is crowing site meta. Yet, Ozgin doesn't claim citizen as a generic town, ever. Ozgin is capitalizing on the question Varsoon asked, yet lacks the evidence to back up his lies.

1116 he claims the motivation behid 102 was that he was lonely. Ozgin's played enough where he does not have that as a plausible excuse. No one claims citizen because of a lack of a hood. Many roles are lonely. Why doesn't he say being town is lonely? All his hoods in 180 were because he was scum.

This is a rusty house of cards.

[Bookitty]

@cheetory: Okay, I'll line it out for you as clearly as I can and then you can return the favour.

1. Ozgin makes an awkward and repeated reference (I remember three times distinctly, two in the first post) to himself as a Citizen. It's not something he has done before when I played with him and it's not something he's done anywhere before that he can show. I even asked for links to another site (which would have been annoying to register, all that) just to try to verify this. He says it's unverifiable anywhere even though it's supposedly his dialect.

2. Citizens in this game are VT. Ozgin claims he was using it as town-alignment. He would know that it meant VT if he read his role PM. The bit about VT=Citizen is not right with the sample PM, it's in the rules. Ozgin said he read the rules several times as

required by scripture

requested by the Mod. So if that part is true, then he read the part about Citizen=VT several times. Since he's now claimed VT, he ought to have known that from his own Role PM as well.

3. I think that he looked at the role PM given as a town sample, didn't read the rules very carefully and tried for a fake townslip. In my experience, fake townslips ONLY work if they happen when no pressure is on. They have to be "discovered" to be effective. This is equally true of real townslips.

4. He then attacks Titus for noticing it (and the inconsistency). His tone is amazingly uneven and not what I would expect of a townie who "knows he fucked up." Instead, it's aggressive and frankly pretty nasty. He still doesn't seem to know that VT=Citizen, even though I would have checked my role PM like five times by that point. Wouldn't you?

5. I think you're projecting about how YOU would feel and not reading what Ozgin actually said. I think he's scum and I think reading his ISO (and contextual things) will demonstrate that much more effectively than I can.

Your turn.

[Titus]

Like, not necessarily directing it at you.
I just mean it feels like most people are just kind of covering their eyes and saying "Ozgin lynch a-go!"
I do appreciate that you're willing to engage me on this, don't get me wrong. Just frustrated that it feels really clear to me and I'm apparently not doing a good job of explaining it.

Then why are people peeling off to vote la la because they disagree with their reads?
Oh and Dragon, la la is scumhunting, even if scum.

[Varsoon]

@Bookitty: Lying isn't alignment indicative. I lie all the time as both aligns. Sometimes a good lie can win the game as either alignment. :l
Lies are great. Lies are important. People that wanna lynch all liars wanna take the fun out of the game.
Because we could play a game where no one posts and all we do is vote and use our powers.
But that'd suck.

@Egg: Do I need to slap you?
Role/setup Speculation IS NOT Role Fishing.
When someone is like, "Oh man what could be the motivation for that?"
And I'm all, "Well, he -could- be this role, that'd explain it."
That's NOT role-fishing.
That's

setup speculation

.

Here's my take on the Ozgin thing as a whole:
I originally thought what you're saying, Boo. I thought it was a slip based on role info and what's in the OP. Shit, go read my early posts against Ozgin. That's literally part of what I was pushing (and even acknowledging was kinda a shitty point anyway because LOL SLIPS AMIRITE?)
But now it actually seems that Ozgin comes from a site where 'citizen' is interchangeable with town (and also VT) and that when he was claiming citizen, it was pretty much him saying "Oh, yeah, I'm town" and after about a billion people called him out of it he was like, "Yeah, I am just straight up /citizen/, as in VT."

I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it feels right enough to me.
*cough besides I can check him tonight anyway howabout that*

P-EDIT:
Oh garsh, Titus came in
@Titus: Do you not realize how your knowledge of the 'Citizen' thing would be a huge implication of you as scum if you hadn't had any prior exposure to the word?
If you think that's fucking rolefishing instead of scum-hunting when

the evidence that I had at-hand pointed towards you being scum

, then fuck it, I guess I was role-fishing. :l
I do agree that Ozgin using the site-meta thing that made me get off of your case over the whole 'citizen is vocabulary that's unique to this game' shit feels after-the-fact, but it could fit.
I assure you, though, Ozgin's on no team of mine unless he's town (which I'm now second guessing, thanks, jerks). Were we on the same scum team, our scum theatre would have been

exquisite

.

[Varsoon]

I also really don't like that Titus is simultaneously pushing this narrative where Ozgin might be a ninja and therefore avoid my clearing ability but then Ozgin also is probably on the same team as me (because it's not like I learned bussing hard out the gate is a TERRIBLE idea from my last large game or anything).

Like, c'mon, Titus.
Come up with some more hypotheticals where I suck.

[Bookitty]

@Bookitty: Lying isn't alignment indicative. I lie all the time as both aligns. Sometimes a good lie can win the game as either alignment. :l
Lies are great. Lies are important. People that wanna lynch all liars wanna take the fun out of the game.
Because we could play a game where no one posts and all we do is vote and use our powers.
But that'd suck.

I don't lie as town. Are you implying that I take the fun out of games by not gambitting or outright lying?



Also, if it was a basic part of his dialect, shouldn't Ozgin be able to present at least one instance of using citizen outside this game? He didn't even do it in a game in which citizen meant VT the same way it does here. Not once. Not one solitary time. You don't get to call something part of your dialect if you NEVER SAY IT. You just don't.

[Varsoon]

No. You do not get to post sad cats at me.


I actually think you're really fun, Boo. But please don't take lying and rhetoric away from me. There's a lot of people who want that, and this is all I have, Bookitty. This is all I've done with my life.

As for Ozgin, I thought he said his games on the other site weren't logged or something.
:/
I really don't want to waffle this more than I already have, but if he's on this site in a same game not using 'citizen' to just mean town when it's got the same Citizen = VT thing going on, then, eh, fuck it.
Fuck it so much.

[Titus]

@Varsoon, lying is alignment indicative. You look at why someone lies, not just that they did. Why would town Ozgin lie about his site meta to fit his claim (namely that he always says Citizen when he means town) as town? That is a lie that town Ozgin does not need to make.

Also, no reading the first post, internalizing it, and realizing Ozgin claimed VT is not a scum indicator, regardless of starting on sc2mafia or not.

And I do have to admit your scum theatre is pretty good.

Yet, it has flaws.

You voted Ozgin for his bad citizen claim right after I did. If you actually could clear Ozgin, such a vote makes no sense. There are indeed flaws like that throughout.


But for right now, we are lynching Ozgin. Tomorrow, we can lynch you.

[Varsoon]

Titus, you make me sour.
My capacity to clear Ozgin was only realized when Ozgin married himself to his VT claim. Before that, I was under the impression he was simply claiming town. And before, that, when I was pushing him, I was under the impression he was scum very poorly faking a town-claim.

I know you want me out of the game now that I'm not just parroting you like before. I was willing to call you out on things that pinged to you. I'm clearly an obstacle for you. It's smart of you to try to set up my lynch, but you're in for some shit when this wagon flips green.
VOTE: Ozgin
I can't wait for you to be proven wrong.

[Varsoon]

When we get a townflip from this, I'm going to wait patiently for you to apologize or just come out and accept your turbo-lynch.
:l

[Titus]

Varsoon, when have I ever accepted my own lynch? Ever. Plus, this lynch is flipping scum. Not a doubt in my mind.

Also the whole married himself to the VT claim makes zero sense if you voted him for claiming VT out of the blue.

[Bookitty]

I actually think you're really fun, Boo. But please don't take lying and rhetoric away from me. There's a lot of people who want that, and this is all I have, Bookitty. This is all I've done with my life.

I <3 you, and you know it. But I hate it when you lie to me

SRSLY, though, I asked Ozgin to provide me with ANY evidence of the citizen thing. He said they were only on chat games that are not recorded. He couldn't provide me with any example outside this game at all. Cheetory gave me a game in which VTs were called citizen, but Ozgin never used the term. I played a game with Ozgin and he never used the term. I did the due diligence on the dialect thing, and it looks to be false.

What's the town motivation for lying and saying you make a habit of something when clearly you don't?

[dragonspawn]

I've been reading the arguments here and in the hood about ozgin being scum. The arguments have been better articulated for me. So I'm feeling more confused. My head is saying he could be scum but my heart keeps telling me he is going to flip town. I'm going to think.about it more. But I'm hoping I can figure it out if I think it out.

I would want a vote count before serious considering getting on board. There have been some vote shifts and I want to know where we are at.

[SilverWolf]

Yeah, Bookitty is pretty convincing here. I think her argument holds merit. I am going to re-ISO Ozgin around the part where he claimed later today when I have time and make my final decision on him later today or tomorrow.

I would also like a vc before doing anything.

[Varsoon]

@Titus: I was voting him because I thought he was claiming town and he was using the Citizen role-PM to think that all town where citizens. Does that make sense? I've explained this like five times now. @_@


@Boo: I won't lie to you, Bookitty. I'm your dirty little trust-teller.
But yeah that's pretty damning. The only reason I could see to do that as town is with the hope that people will buy it and get off of you and onto, y'know, a scum lynch.
For the wincon, as they say.


@Dragonspawn:
The way I see it, Ozgin lynch is inevitable. It either happens today or tomorrow or the next day but it's going to happen with how much of an issue it is.
I'd rather get this sorted out now. At the very least, we get a ton of info based on the fact literally everyone who's been in the game has had some input or interaction with Ozgin so far.
At best, we get a lynch on scum (or the SK! Oh boy! Shit, don't let some people read that--they might think my vote on Ozgin is SK hunting! Double-shit! Am I rolefishing right now?) AND relational tells.
We've had a good flux of wagons and counterwagons.
I'd say that, honestly, Ozgin's probably the best lynch we can go with.

He's at L-2 as far as I am aware.

[Cheetory6]

I feel like slinking into a corner because egg saying that townslip thing makes me feel like I'm wrong here. q.q
Him saying it more than once in that post does look a little sketchy for what I was thinking and like I can't disagree that him lying about the citizen thing being a standard for him does implicitly look bad. Like, I still kind of think that he was lying as town to try to backtrack away from a citizen claim, but ehhhhh.

I'm feeling muddled now

[House]

House, you have Boon as town and Dragonspawn as scum. You realize this makes absolutely no sense, right?

Sure it makes sense. I completely buy the claim, I just wanna kill him regardless.

It's compulsory.

Though to be fair, that has kinda subsided since some discussion that has happened in the 'hood.

And on that note:

VOTE: Ozgin

Because getting caught back up.

[Cheetory6]

Not feeling an Ozgin lynch for reasons discussed in the 'hood (Spoiler: I actually agree with something dragonspawn said and disagree with my favoritest cuddlebug evar).

Heh?

[Varsoon]

Titus, T S O, Egg, Bookitty, FA_Q2, Taly, Prolapsed Brain, Aneninen, Varsoon, House
puts the wagon at L-1.
Purty sure.

[Titus]

@Varsoon, that doesn't make any sense either. Citizen is not common to this site. No one would think all towns were Citizens reading the first post. You have had a constant shift of explanations, trying to defend Ozgin after that slip.

Now, we'll put this to rest with an Ozgin scumflip.

@Egg, it's moonlogic with House and Dragon. I would go for a policy lynch if they were alive too long, but not now. Besides, if they are town, suspicion is good for them.

[House]

Not feeling an Ozgin lynch for reasons discussed in the 'hood (Spoiler: I actually agree with something dragonspawn said and disagree with my favoritest cuddlebug evar).

Heh?

It's pretty sad what you miss out on when you're not part of the Kool Kids Klub.