Mini 1687: Refraction Mafia (WINNER!)

[Mathdino]

@Mathdino about 122: I remember someone in one of my games (hopefully a completed one. pretty sure anyway.) saying something about working together (being on the same wagon) with a scumread being bad but i don’t remember who right now. might have been BBT? if i figure out what game it was from i’ll link it or say something more coherent tomorrow (bit of a headache tonight)

I think it’s more of a later game thing or at least a “not rvs thing” because if a scumread is pushing a wagon and they’re actually scum then it’s good to ask yourself why they’re pushing the wagon and why you’re on it but abuse isn’t really pushing the wagon and it’s a stale rvs vote at this point.

Sorry if this was incoherent. I am going to stop staring at the computer for now.

Una palabra, hermano: Bussing.

Pre-flip associatives based on people suspecting or not suspecting each other is generally total BS. Pretty much the only pre-flip associatives I'm into are ones that are equivalent to townslips and direct communication/back-and-forths that clearly show 2 people aren't scum together.

Hell even in 5p lylo scum will bus. I've lynched scum using their partner before.

The gist of all this is idrc right now.

[Lapsa]

Lapsa, be a bud and vote Abuse with me.

VOTE: Abuse

[Zoronos]

Cool. Think he's actually scum, or just along for the ride?

(Not a trap question. Genuinely interested)

[Lapsa]

yes

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'll be catching up in the next day or two. Busy weekend.

[Mathdino]

this is legitimate policy lynch territory guys

[Fro99er]

What is? Lapsa or CD?

[Mathdino]

guess

[Zoronos]

yes

C'mon man. Work with me here. I'm trying to get you to participate without just voting at you until you do. Because that's the other option, and I find that clouds the situation and gives lots of false positives.

Just training along with a town read isn't scummy, I wasn't trying to trap question you. I'm trying to get you into the game here.

[Fro99er]

I don't believe Lapsa is being this obviously anti-town/scummy as a scum player

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mathdino

[Zoronos]

Math Dino is pretty towny I don't think you should vote him without a good reason.

[Thor665]

I am bothered and offput by the concept that you are trying to understand my posts enough to be confused by 26...but yet also somehow miss 28, which is a clarification of 26.
You feel fake.
I think you're trying to paint a picture of someone concerned with facts in order to appear town.

I actually said in my post after 26/28 that I understood 26 was directed at tool, it was just the pronoun usage that confused me. Couldn't figure out if 'he' referred to me or Frogger.

Well, if you understood it was directed at Tool then 'me' and 'you' become pretty clear. Leaving just the 'him/he' and last I checked Frogger hadn't attacked anyone in a way Tool had reacted to, but you had. Seemed pretty clear to me. But I still stand by my stated issue here - I don't think you're really paying attention, but I do think you wish it to appear as such.

Tbf I think a miscommunication between us is an objectively Smurfy reason for a scumread,

Okay. Good thing I didn't claim it as the reason behind my scum read then I suppose.

but there are probably other reasons so could you dump all you have on me in one post?

What part of my quoted issue above confuses you? What part about my raised issue with your 'meta' of Frogger confuses you? I've only offered those two points against you. They *are* my case.
I'll toss in 'opportunistic voting' but that's really a slim and secondary issue to my main points and is practically the Forgger one all over again, but less clearly scummy.

Math Dino is pretty towny I don't think you should vote him without a good reason.

I disagree with you about his townishness and have also offered specific reasons that I am voting him - would you like to address your thoughts on those to me?
I'm surprised you like him enough to defend him from Frogger but not enough to even discuss my issues - was there a reason for that? Am I blending into the background here or something?

[Thor665]

I actually said in my post after 26/28 that I understood 26 was directed at tool, it was just the pronoun usage that confused me. Couldn't figure out if 'he' referred to me or Frogger.

Well, if you understood it was directed at Tool then 'me' and 'you' become pretty clear. Leaving just the 'him/he' and last I checked Frogger hadn't attacked anyone in a way Tool had reacted to, but you had. Seemed pretty clear to me. But I still stand by my stated issue here - I don't think you're really paying attention, but I do think you wish it to appear as such.

Tbf I think a miscommunication between us is an objectively Smurfy reason for a scumread,

Okay. Good thing I didn't claim it as the reason behind my scum read then I suppose.

but there are probably other reasons so could you dump all you have on me in one post?

What part of my quoted issue above confuses you? What part about my raised issue with your 'meta' of Frogger confuses you? I've only offered those two points against you. They *are* my case.
I'll toss in 'opportunistic voting' but that's really a slim and secondary issue to my main points and is practically the Forgger one all over again, but less clearly scummy.

Math Dino is pretty towny I don't think you should vote him without a good reason.

I disagree with you about his townishness and have also offered specific reasons that I am voting him - would you like to address your thoughts on those to me?
I'm surprised you like him enough to defend him from Frogger but not enough to even discuss my issues - was there a reason for that? Am I blending into the background here or something?

*Fixed

[Fro99er]

Math Dino is pretty towny I don't think you should vote him without a good reason.

Let me get those reasons for you, because I disagree.

[Zoronos]

@thor
I didn't even notice you had a case on him tbh. I kind of skimmed the pages before I started posting because the signal / noise ratio was low. I'll go look at it.

[Fro99er]

Mathdino pushed me because my entrance post "wasn't my usual schtick"

Then they voted texcat because their post "looked forced"

Lapsa is clearly pulling a Slayer's gambit or some other type townie acts scum to see who wagons on, and I admittedly bit, but Mathdino keeps pushing this as I'll expand upon in a second

Dino replies to Thor with this: "Tbf I think a miscommunication between us is an objectively shitty reason for a scumread"...not any more shitty than your pushes on myself and texcat.

Dino then continues with his vote on Lapsa, appearing to want to almost policy lynch Lapsa: "he's dead weight and it's not like I'm voting him for his personality, I'm voting him so he gets off his ass. I'll unvote when he contributes. Otherwise you bet I'm pushing for a lynch if he can't hold up to the standards of contributing to the game."

Then plotinus brings up a good point that mathdino is voting a wagon with the person he FOS'd, and dino replies along the lines of, well, abuse is more scummy, but I'm still going to policy vote Lapsa. WTF? I persoonally would want to eliminate scum, not policy lynch someone who I have lower on my scumlist. This policy thing is BS, and clearly Lapsa is trying to suck in a scum on his wagon.

Then he actually brings up a policy lynch after CD posts. I wasn't quite sure who he was referring to, and he says guess, so I'm assuming about Lapsa. But that's idiotic. Vote your damn scum read, and have good reasons for it. I'm not going to sit here and policy lynch someone who's obviously trying to act scummy, and then turn out to be town.

[Zoronos]

On a side note, I don't understand who Thor and tool are referring to so someone should clarify their sentences...

I am bothered and offput by the concept that you are trying to understand my posts enough to be confused by 26...but yet also somehow miss 28, which is a clarification of 26.
You feel fake.
I think you're trying to paint a picture of someone concerned with facts in order to appear town.

@Thor

Just read your ISO to see what I missed. Is this the case you were referring to? Is there something more to it that I missed?

Want to make sure I'm looking at the right thing.

[Zoronos]

Also that was after I started posting but apparently I missed it anyway. Oops .

[Thor665]

@thor
I didn't even notice you had a case on him tbh. I kind of skimmed the pages before I started posting because the signal / noise ratio was low. I'll go look at it.

Oh boy!

On a side note, I don't understand who Thor and tool are referring to so someone should clarify their sentences...

I am bothered and offput by the concept that you are trying to understand my posts enough to be confused by 26...but yet also somehow miss 28, which is a clarification of 26.
You feel fake.
I think you're trying to paint a picture of someone concerned with facts in order to appear town.

@Thor

Just read your ISO to see what I missed. Is this the case you were referring to? Is there something more to it that I missed?

Want to make sure I'm looking at the right thing.

Literally I *just* restated the entire thing for Mathdino's purposes. That would be the same post where, I suppose, you skimmed past all of my responses to him and simply read the part where I quoted you.
Please don't play like that.
Here it is again, the 'quoted' issue is *also* what you quoted, so that's convienent, then there were a few posts around Page 1-2 that are the Frogger incident, if you skimmed that I would suggest going back as it was the instigating issue for about 8-% of the valid conversation in the game thus far, at least in my opinion;

"What part of my quoted issue above confuses you? What part about my raised issue with your 'meta' of Frogger confuses you? I've only offered those two points against you. They *are* my case.
I'll toss in 'opportunistic voting' but that's really a slim and secondary issue to my main points and is practically the Forgger one all over again, but less clearly scummy."

[Zoronos]

Literally I *just* restated the entire thing for Mathdino's purposes. That would be the same post where, I suppose, you skimmed past all of my responses to him and simply read the part where I quoted you.
Please don't play like that.
Here it is again, the 'quoted' issue is *also* what you quoted, so that's convienent, then there were a few posts around Page 1-2 that are the Frogger incident, if you skimmed that I would suggest going back as it was the instigating issue for about 8-% of the valid conversation in the game thus far, at least in my opinion;

"What part of my quoted issue above confuses you? What part about my raised issue with your 'meta' of Frogger confuses you? I've only offered those two points against you. They *are* my case.
I'll toss in 'opportunistic voting' but that's really a slim and secondary issue to my main points and is practically the Forgger one all over again, but less clearly scummy."

I read that post! I just didn't realize it was supposed to be a scum case. I saw you frustrated that he's not understanding (or professes not to understand) your posting, but failed to link that you were calling him scum for not understanding.
imo, confusion about posting is not alignment indicating. I have certainly made confused as hell nonsense responses as town in previous games.

"I am bothered and offput by the concept that you are trying to understand my posts enough to be confused by 26...but yet also somehow miss 28, which is a clarification of 26." -> Is reading comprehension fail a scumtell? I'd argue no. Townies can and do completely flub reading in exasperating and borderline impossible to understand ways. Sometimes scum do it strategically (though in this case I really struggle to find the scum-game Dino is playing at by not understanding your meta question). Basically what I'm saying here is that this isn't alignment indicating.
You feel fake." -> Cool. Other than his bafflingly poor reading comprehension, what's he doing? Show me scum strategy, and I'll be right there with you. But I don't see it atm.
"I think you're trying to paint a picture of someone concerned with facts in order to appear town." -> Being concerned with facts is towny, right? So, if he's faking it, how is he using it to advance a scum agenda? Which facts does he strategically get wrong to move the scum win con forwards?

Basically what I'm saying here is show me the scum line of play. Because my read on those posts is that it's a null indicator.

I agree that your read on the Frogger posts is correct and that Dino's is incorrect (I'm not touching the meta bit with a 10 foot poll. I didn't read the old Frogger games, and I'm not going to. Fuck meta). I don't think that makes Dino scum. He's not tunneling down on that read and not pressuring frogger over it. He made a bad read, you pushed him off it, he agreed that Frogger was probably town, then moved on to look for scum elsewhere. That's pretty much what I'd expect from town. His early read was bad, you showed him why, he changed his mind.

[Thor665]

I read that post! I just didn't realize it was supposed to be a scum case. I saw you frustrated that he's not understanding (or professes not to understand) your posting, but failed to link that you were calling him scum for not understanding.
imo, confusion about posting is not alignment indicating. I have certainly made confused as hell nonsense responses as town in previous games.

At no point did I call confusion scummy - I am confused why that is your takeaway from my raised issues. Only one of them (and that with some squinting) could be called "confusing stuff makes you scummy" and that would *still* leave at least the second half of my case.

Why do you think this is my case against him?
i do not want that to be confusing people.

You feel fake." -> Cool. Other than his bafflingly poor reading comprehension, what's he doing? Show me scum strategy, and I'll be right there with you. But I don't see it atm.

The scum strategy is to appear town via logic. Players who extrovert logic are far less likely to catch flak and votes than those who run around screaming "derp!" at the top of their lungs.
Easy example - the case on Lapsa is that he sucks at the game. This is true, and valid, and a reason to run him up...and other people are even suggesting he is not scummy because scum wouldn't be that derp. Efrgo - people understand that scum have a built in desire to *not* look like that.

Make sense now?

Being concerned with facts is towny, right?

Yes,

So, if he's faking it, how is he using it to advance a scum agenda?

To appear town to avoid a lynch.

Which facts does he strategically get wrong to move the scum win con forwards?

The Frogger meta - as I've said.

I agree that your read on the Frogger posts is correct and that Dino's is incorrect (I'm not touching the meta bit with a 10 foot poll. I didn't read the old Frogger games, and I'm not going to. Smurf meta). I don't think that makes Dino scum. He's not tunneling down on that read and not pressuring frogger over it. He made a bad read, you pushed him off it, he agreed that Frogger was probably town, then moved on to look for scum elsewhere. That's pretty much what I'd expect from town. His early read was bad, you showed him why, he changed his mind.

I will agree - after I called him out on it he very quickly changed targets.
This relaxes you. It does not relax me.
You will note that he has not justified how he drew the conclusion he claims to and *also* has not admitted to being wrong (which you are suggesting he did - and which I will agree, if he had done so it would have looked townish)
What he did was drop the subject and walk away like nothing happened. That is NOT what you are saying he did.

How do you think he admitted being wrong?
Can you quote it?

[Zoronos]

Mathdino pushed me because my entrance post "wasn't my usual schtick"

Then they voted texcat because their post "looked forced"

Lapsa is clearly pulling a Slayer's gambit or some other type townie acts scum to see who wagons on, and I admittedly bit, but Mathdino keeps pushing this as I'll expand upon in a second

Dino replies to Thor with this: "Tbf I think a miscommunication between us is an objectively shitty reason for a scumread"...not any more shitty than your pushes on myself and texcat.

Dino then continues with his vote on Lapsa, appearing to want to almost policy lynch Lapsa: "he's dead weight and it's not like I'm voting him for his personality, I'm voting him so he gets off his ass. I'll unvote when he contributes. Otherwise you bet I'm pushing for a lynch if he can't hold up to the standards of contributing to the game."

Then plotinus brings up a good point that mathdino is voting a wagon with the person he FOS'd, and dino replies along the lines of, well, abuse is more scummy, but I'm still going to policy vote Lapsa. WTF? I persoonally would want to eliminate scum, not policy lynch someone who I have lower on my scumlist. This policy thing is BS, and clearly Lapsa is trying to suck in a scum on his wagon.

Then he actually brings up a policy lynch after CD posts. I wasn't quite sure who he was referring to, and he says guess, so I'm assuming about Lapsa. But that's idiotic. Vote your damn scum read, and have good reasons for it. I'm not going to sit here and policy lynch someone who's obviously trying to act scummy, and then turn out to be town.

I'm playing defense, like no one ever was. To defend them all, is my quest, to derail trains is my cause! Mafia-mon!
Sorry. Right, content.

Point by point:
1) Yeah, his meta read on you was dumb. Not scummy, just dumb. (Meta is dumb don't use it. It's a siren song that even I fall prey to some times, but it leads me astray so often. It's confirmation bias land) You talked it through, he changed his mind and moved away.
2) I think his post about Texcat was pretty okay. What about it was scummy, in your opinion? I already layed out why I think Plotonius' claim to be able to read you is towny, so it strikes me that someone pushing against that (as Texcat was in this case) is something worth questioning. He votes more freely than you or I do, obviously, but that's a style thing, not an alignment indicator, imo.
3) Slayer's Gambit is dumb. Never do it unless you have a really good way to prove your own towniness, because it tanks your credibility (because you're acting objectively scummy). It's honey-potting, and you need a good way to tell the difference between 'scum lured into your honey pot' and 'town that voted you because you're doing something objectively scummy'. It also turns 'I refuse to participate' into a towny action, which it very much isn't. Once you start assuming that everyone acting purposefully obstinate is town, you get into a degenerate case where scum can just refuse to play, be town read for it, and win by not playing. That's no fun.
4) I agree that his push on you was shitty. Conveniently he changed his mind when faced with updated information. His push on Texcat was pretty okay. Also, hypocrisy is a null tell. Plenty of town are hypocrites, whether they want to admit it or not.
5 & 6) Those are 'Pressure votes'. Basically people are shaking their fists at Lapsa and yelling "You better start playing or we'll kill you!" They're trying to force him to participate. Personally I don't think it's the best way to engage an obstinate player (see: My questions / talk with Lapsa. I find curated engagement works better) but it's the far more common way to handle the situation. If someone refuses to play, that is anti-town. It's pretty much the definition of a policy lynch. You do it because you're trying to create a 'policy' where people must participate and refusing to do so is unacceptable.
Making it clear that his actual scum read is on Abuse is towny, because if Abuse gets lynched while MathDino is camping on a Lapsa vote, we can hold MathDino responsible for that read. If push comes to shove and MathDino refuses to vote that read, we can hold him responsible for that too.

7) Policy lynches are a really controversial subject. Some people really love them, some people (like me, and obviously you), don't. But that's not usually alignment indicating. Things like refusing to participate just suck to deal with. Making it not-okay to do that is a pro-fun maneuver, if not always pro-town.
Lapsa is acting anti-town. Full stop. He's not helping us find the scum, and he's not helping us get a read on him. Other than metaing "Oh, he must be doing X gambit" we have no real way to determine his alignment. If you didn't know he was gambiting, what would your read on him be?
My method to get a read on him is to coax him into participating. MadDino's (and others, and it's the more conventional way to handle it) is to threaten him into participating. But we need him participating. Pressure voting here is actually a pro-town action, as much as that sounds backwards, because it puts Lapsa into a position where he has to produce some content to help us get a read on him.

[CB]

First two pages:

Mathdino:
15 and 18 seem forced and weak. It seems like he is trying to force the game out of RVS instead of just letting it occur naturally. Which I don't mind as much if he wasn't defensive over the read 25 and then strengthens the read in 42 when I didn't find Frogger that defensive at all. Also in 42 he makes reference to not realizing Tool was just applying pressure. The fact that it is not the first thing on his mind in this early stage means he is not coming from as towny of a perspective.

Tool:
I can understand the scum tone better than the meta read. Why is Frogger spending so much time coming up with RVS reasons, it is strange, I did not read it as scummy though since he just ended up posting them all but I can understand why someone would. 32. Difference between Tool and Mathdino is Tool admits it is weak and does not follow the meta part which is the weakest element of it.

Little confused on why everyone afterwards was just pinging out Tool and not Math.

Plotinus:
I really don't like 48. Seems really noncommittal. I mean he is one of two people you have played with and you don't feel comfortable giving a read. What are we going to wait for day 5 to hear a read on all the people you haven't played with?

--------------------------------

Next two pages:

Texcat:
Like 52 I was thinking the same thing.

Lapsa:
56 makes no sense there is nothing vague about those instructions. I am usually not one for the last one the confirm stuff but I don't like this response at all.

Mathdino:
I like the reconsider 57. Although I am little worried it could be scum not getting traction he wanted. I don't like 58 however I felt he was doing a lot of the stuff he was accusing Texcat of doing. I liked 90 for the most part. The pressure on both Lapsa and abuse is good. I don't agree with the reason for town reading Plot though.

Plot- Gave an explanation only after getting pressured 70. A scum read for softing vanilla town, really? That seems weak. Also you saw VT soft VT but now you think Lapsa is scum for doing it this game? It doesn't seem like the greatest scum strategy either as it is just WIFOM and easily ignored in LYLO 75. It is pretty much entirely WIFOM as scum, VT, or PR can do it. I don't believe that was a soft for anything.

Don't like Abuse so far. If you thought someone was a PR softing VT for some reason find another reason to defend them not spell it out to mafia. Looked like he was just trying to be busy. Entirely too focused on stuff not related to finding scum.

--------------------------------

Next two pages:

Zoro is throwing out weak town reads like candy but each time throwing in a conditional. I don't like that looks like pocketing with a chance to revoke the town reads in the future if he is being honest about the conditional. 83, 109 Also talking to a lot of people like he knows they are town 133. Agree with the read on Abuse though. Disagree with 109 I believe when Plot first brought Frogger he was talking about everyone else being able to discern his alignment not giving his guarantee and this doesn't make sense anyways if Plot is scum and Frogger is town it is pretty easy to give a guarantee. Especially if he thinks Frogger plays like obv town like he mentioned before.

Lapsa 126 128 great stuff...............

@Math Are you scum reading Lapsa? or Policy voting Lapsa?

VOTE: Plotinus

[Zoronos]

I read that post! I just didn't realize it was supposed to be a scum case. I saw you frustrated that he's not understanding (or professes not to understand) your posting, but failed to link that you were calling him scum for not understanding.
imo, confusion about posting is not alignment indicating. I have certainly made confused as hell nonsense responses as town in previous games.

At no point did I call confusion scummy - I am confused why that is your takeaway from my raised issues. Only one of them (and that with some squinting) could be called "confusing stuff makes you scummy" and that would *still* leave at least the second half of my case.

Why do you think this is my case against him?
i do not want that to be confusing people.

You feel fake." -> Cool. Other than his bafflingly poor reading comprehension, what's he doing? Show me scum strategy, and I'll be right there with you. But I don't see it atm.

The scum strategy is to appear town via logic. Players who extrovert logic are far less likely to catch flak and votes than those who run around screaming "derp!" at the top of their lungs.
Easy example - the case on Lapsa is that he sucks at the game. This is true, and valid, and a reason to run him up...and other people are even suggesting he is not scummy because scum wouldn't be that derp. Efrgo - people understand that scum have a built in desire to *not* look like that.

Make sense now?

Being concerned with facts is towny, right?

Yes,

So, if he's faking it, how is he using it to advance a scum agenda?

To appear town to avoid a lynch.

Which facts does he strategically get wrong to move the scum win con forwards?

The Frogger meta - as I've said.

I agree that your read on the Frogger posts is correct and that Dino's is incorrect (I'm not touching the meta bit with a 10 foot poll. I didn't read the old Frogger games, and I'm not going to. Smurf meta). I don't think that makes Dino scum. He's not tunneling down on that read and not pressuring frogger over it. He made a bad read, you pushed him off it, he agreed that Frogger was probably town, then moved on to look for scum elsewhere. That's pretty much what I'd expect from town. His early read was bad, you showed him why, he changed his mind.

I will agree - after I called him out on it he very quickly changed targets.
This relaxes you. It does not relax me.
You will note that he has not justified how he drew the conclusion he claims to and *also* has not admitted to being wrong (which you are suggesting he did - and which I will agree, if he had done so it would have looked townish)
What he did was drop the subject and walk away like nothing happened. That is NOT what you are saying he did.

How do you think he admitted being wrong?
Can you quote it?

1) I thought that was your case against him because I quoted it back and you agreed it was your case.
My understanding of your case was that he's scummy because only scum would misunderstand who you were talking to in post 26 after you clarified in post 28. aka he's feigning confusion.
If it isn't, I really need you to help me understand the case, because I'm obviously not getting it.

2) Okay... sure. Lynch avoidance is pro-scum. But show me where he's using bad facts to push a lynch through. (which plays into the next bit)
3 & 4 & 5) Yeah, his frogger meta was dumb, because using meta is dumb. He changed his mind and admitted to being wrong in 57. Also I didn't realize my autocorrect had turned 'screw meta' into 'Smurf meta'. That's the best typo. If he were still pushing 'frogger is scum', I'd be right there with you. Absolutely no question that read was bad. But he's not tunneling it down, he's calling Frogger towny.

I get the feeling you didn't see 57 as events were occurring. I certainly can't blame you, since I super skimmed the first couple pages of stuff. (In this case, I think reading the thread in not-real-time was to my benefit, since I saw all this stuff simultaneously while reading ISO).

[Zoronos]

I feel like a legit moron here because I'm staring at Thor's case going "He clearly wants me to see something else... but I don't see what that is"