Mini 1687: Refraction Mafia (WINNER!)

[Fro99er]

Your reversal on the Plot read happened quickly. Really quickly.

Incorrect. I said his honesty read towny to me. I did not say, he's firmly in my town pool. He's nullish for me right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I just skimmed the past page or so because I'm not reading those walls.

Town reading CB, Zoro, Fro99er, Plot, & Tex. In that order.

Thor is tunneling which makes it difficult to get a read on him. Need some more posts from Shinobi to develop a read, same for CD.

Will vote Abuse, Math, Lapsa or Tool Today.

VOTE: Math

[Lapsa]

Really???

mad skills

and please don't do 'will post tonight' fillers anymore. hate them

And?

and that catches your point of interest

[Zoronos]

I am also annoyed that you dodged my request to show me where he admitted to being wrong in the meta - as you claimed he did.
Really?

He claimed he was wrong about his read on Frogger entirely, which by implication means he thinks he was wrong about his meta read. He changed his mind and thought Frogger was town. It's in post 57. I linked it twice. I wasn't dodging your request, I'm getting frustrated because it feels like you're nitpicking. But whatever.

You said in 93, which I quoted back to you to make sure I understood, that the case was because he was confused. Whatever, okay, now that we understand each other. That's a better case, but I'm not sure events fit the case. If he were still voting or scum reading Frogger in any capacity, yeah, agree with you. But he's not, he's town reading him.
If he ever comes around back to that Frogger read and uses the meta or day start stuff, I'll be right there with you.

[Shinobi]

Really???

mad skills

and please don't do 'will post tonight' fillers anymore. hate them

And?

and that catches your point of interest

Yeah. It does.

[Shinobi]

Alright, I just skimmed the past page or so because I'm not reading those walls.

Town reading CB, Zoro, Fro99er,

Plot

, & Tex. In that order.

Thor is tunneling which makes it difficult to get a read on him. Need some more posts from Shinobi to develop a read, same for CD.

Will vote

Abuse

, Math, Lapsa or

Tool

Today.

VOTE: Math

Can you explain these reads for me pls?
Specifically the bolded.

[Zoronos]

Why wait so long to place the vote? You posted a few times (3?) after his oh so scummy 67, why the vote now?

*shrug* Wanted to stop the dumb discussion.

[Zoronos]

Alright, I just skimmed the past page or so because I'm not reading those walls.

Town reading CB, Zoro, Fro99er, Plot, & Tex. In that order.

Thor is tunneling which makes it difficult to get a read on him. Need some more posts from Shinobi to develop a read, same for CD.

Will vote Abuse, Math, Lapsa or Tool Today.

VOTE: Math

Talk to me about Tool, I have him in my ??? pile.

(I agree on Thor. I'm trying to break him out of the tunnel, but it's hard.)

[Thor665]

He claimed he was wrong about his read on Frogger entirely, which by implication means he thinks he was wrong about his meta read. He changed his mind and thought Frogger was town. It's in post 57. I linked it twice. I wasn't dodging your request, I'm getting frustrated because it feels like you're nitpicking. But whatever.

He never said that in Post 57 - he simply said 'oh, these posts look towny'.
He has posted agreement with me on this point.

You said in 93, which I quoted back to you to make sure I understood, that the case was because he was confused.

No, I did not. i said the confusion showed that he was faking stuff, and that I found the faking scummy, not the confusion.

If he were still voting or scum reading Frogger in any capacity, yeah, agree with you. But he's not, he's town reading him.
If he ever comes around back to that Frogger read and uses the meta or day start stuff, I'll be right there with you.

So it was scummy that he used it, not scummy as soon as he stopped (after being called on it, and not admitting to being wrong) and would be scummy if he brought it up as a valid point again (which, though he's not pushing the case - he does still call it a valid point as recently as 24 hours ago).

I fail to follow you.
Your defense feels unnatural.

[Thor665]

(I agree on Thor. I'm trying to break him out of the tunnel, but it's hard.)

I instigated this discussion, not you.

[Zoronos]

I instigated this discussion, not you.

Yeah, and the reason I am continuing it, after Dino asked me to stop playing defense, is to try and get you out of the tunnel.

[Thor665]

Then please address 208.
I'll save pointing out that I'm not tunneling to other people - I'm tired of people mistaking a push with a tunnel and not grokking the difference.

[Zoronos]

Then please address 208.
I'll save pointing out that I'm not tunneling to other people - I'm tired of people mistaking a push with a tunnel and not grokking the difference.

I'm working on it, but I'm really close to throwing my hands in the air and giving up in exasperation.

[Mathdino]

Why are you not addressing the people who have claimed this as par for the course from him?

@Mathdino

Also, as someone who went and researched Frogger...why didn't you research Lapsa?
Because a very mild Lapsa research quest will show multiple games where people pointed out that his playstyle was poison, and him sticking to it regardless, and him being town in the end. So...yeah.

I'm calling BS on this. If you were the sort of person to research Frogger why would you not research Lapsa? You're scum who is faking his work.

This is a really good question so I'm gonna respond to this and go back to ignoring the you/Zoro combat.

I voted Frogger for being weird and striking me as non-genuine. I did a quick meta to make sure this wasn't his usual MO and voted him.

I voted Lapsa for acting anti-town and (I didn't say this at the time) to pressure him into being active and people started telling me that pressure votes are useless if you actually say they're for pressure. I didn't particularly care if he's ALWAYS anti-town because if that's how he acts 100% of the time, he still has a 24% chance of being scum this game AND I really don't want him to act that way this game.

Edit: DUDE GIVE UP AND GO DO SOMETHING ELSE

[Zoronos]

I respond to Zoro, but preferred abbreviation is Zor.
Though it is kind of amusing how many different wants people shorten my name.

[Zoronos]

mafia-edit: different ways. I swear I know how to use a keyboard.

[Mathdino]

Wouldn't that be a reason

not

to vote him? Sympathy...? Whatever.

Anyway are you just voting whoever or are you purposefully voting with me?

Math, why did you choose Plot as opposed to any of the players who were voting you?

Frogger why no vote? Also, reads?

Plotinus, reads on Frogger so far then?

Froggers over defencive response is kinda reinforcing my read right now considering he just made a point that his scumhunting will show he's town, not his meta.

You're trying too hard here. I'm surprised Fro99er even responded with reads, you would have got 'lol, page 2' from me.

Since when is being defensive a scum tell? What is the problem with the scum hunting comment?

1. Not sure I understand. Most of the people voting me seemed to pretty clearly be wagoning, and I wasn't sure about Plot, and I figure asking questions in RVS is better than twiddling your thumbs until someone else does.
2. I feel as if continuing to restate my case against Frogger will give people the impression that I'm still scumreading him, so I'm going to assume people are reading my 158 and won't misunderstand me.
Idea is that Frogger responded to accusations by claiming that his scumhunting will show that he's town... and then proceeded to make a bunch of overdefencive posts that contain 0 scumhunting and all defence. By his self-meta, I took that to be very non-townish.

[Fro99er]

and then proceeded to make a bunch of overdefencive posts that contain 0 scumhunting and all defence

This is a lie. I pressured Tool, then Lapsa again, then realized Lapsa was being Lapsa and pressured you.

I get defensive when appropriate as town or as scum, and plenty of people do. Also, I don't see "overdefencive". Just defensive. Try again.

(I like my vote on you even more now for the misrep of me not scumhunting).

[Mathdino]

Alright looking back I think texcat's suspicions and questioning seem not-really-scumhunty and forced. The backing off thing she claimed tool did is stretchy too.

VOTE: texcat

Yo texcat

, could you explain what you wanted to get out of the question you asked Plotinus on reading Frogger? Did you find it scummy or were you trying to clarify, or...?

Dislike this vote. I thought Tex's vote and reasoning were pretty decent for that point in the game.

abuse has actually stepped into scumread from this past conversation. He seems to be doing a lot of "arguing that people are wrong" and not much of "arguing people are scum". He starts what amounts to a useless semantics debate with Shinobi and (correct me if I'm wrong) spent a page arguing that Plotinus's vote 'looks bad' and not 'scummy'.

@abuse

, what are your scumreads? What's your read on Plotinus? Shinobi? Lapsa?

UNVOTE: texcat
VOTE: Lapsa

FoS: abuse

Edit: @BBT: JP Mafia all over again, eh? Now you know how I felt

Where did the scum read on Tex go?

Why are you voting Lapsa over abuse?

Can you clarify what your last comment means? It feels like you're talking to me as if you know I'm town...

1. Shelved, go read my "If you don't like wallposts" post. 158.
2. Go read 158.
3. You got frustrated at the super pace of this game and I'm referencing the fact that I got completely bogged down and apathetic about that game because I couldn't keep up. I don't understand how I'm talking to you as town... you can get bogged down and apathetic as either alignment.

EDIT: GODDAMMIT MAN, EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO NOT HAPPEN. I'm not scumreading you and I don't WANT people to scumread you, I'm explaining what I saw at the time because SOMEONE ASKED. I'm speaking about the PAST, not how you are in the PRESENT, because at the moment you're town.
GO READ 158.
AND REREAD ABOVE POST.

[Fro99er]

You cannot tell me post 38 was defensive and not scumhunting. I gave reasons for both pressuring Tool and Lapsa.

Yes I was defensive in post 33 (but not overly defensive) in the one post after I mentioned you read me by my scumhunting.

My next post (post 35) I was asking a question about acronyms, you cannot hold that against me.

My next post was post 38 where I did some scumhunting.


I'm only being defensive now to show how you are misrepping me as "overdefencive". You also don't pay attention in your post 42 when you ask me why no vote, then I reply I'm voting lapsa, and then I back my vote up with more scumhunting in post 45. I thought you were scumhunting then, now I realize you are just misrepping and making false claims.

[Fro99er]

(above post directed @Mathdino, sorry)

[Fro99er]

EBWOP: @Mathdino. Sorry. Didn't realize you were tlaking about the past. My fault.

But I still believe my posts were not devoid of scumhunting after I mentioned you read me by scumhunting, and I still believe they were not "overdefencive"

[Mathdino]

29, 33, and 35 were the ones I was referring to as defencive. 38 I didn't see as particularly townish scumhunting in the first place since it was just the usual "last to confirm, must be scum, oh wait never mind they weren't online" thing that one person always does in these games.

I didn't respond because I told you I was scumreading you for not scumhunting and then you scumhunted. What I wanted to see was how genuine it was and to work with you anyway despite being a scumread. Treat everyone as if they're town when you're talking to them, treat everyone as could-be-scum when you're talking ABOUT them.

WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS ARGUMENT. Every single time someone asks me about my Frogger read they end up being like OH WOW HIS REASONS ARE BULLSHIT, MUST BE SCUM, except I'm not still touting those arguments 9 pages into the game, I have updated reads. We're having a slapfight over a damn page 2 read in which 'scummy' just means 'more scummy in the less than 10 posts they've made than everyone else is'.

fuck.

Edit: Whatever, keeping this post for posterity.

[Zoronos]

Past MathDino was dumb. Present MathDino is smarter. Mistakes were made.
Town reads stop voting eachother. >.<

[Zoronos]

:words:

1) He said Frogger was a townread. He says it again in the very next post (58). If he's town, then he isn't scum. If he isn't scum, then the conclusion from meta showing he was scum is wrong.
2) The phrase "I am bothered and offput by the concept that you are trying to understand my posts enough to be confused by 26...but yet also somehow miss 28, which is a clarification of 26." led me to think that was your case. [93.
Okay, so you think that's the evidence of faking, cool. If that is evidence of faking, then he's just feigning confusing, right? What's he accomplishing with it? Not much apparently since he completely reversed the read and wandered off to do other things. Find me some more evidence that he's faking opinions, and we can talk more about it.
If you can show me definite evidence that it was feigned lack of confusion instead of genuine confusion (and not No True Scottsman style 'No true town would ever be confused by my posts'), I'll be on board with your case.
3) No, it wasn't scummy, it was just dumb. Well, maybe a little scummy, but not *that* scummy.
What's scummy is being shown why your case is wrong / bad / dumb, and then not changing your mind. Camping on a bad case is scummy. He's not doing that. If he were doing that, I'd agree with you.
See: All the posts that are happening right now.