MINI 1688 — BEES!!! — game over

[Fro99er]

What, exactly, did you like about Shaddox’s post?

I said I'll tell when I'm back from phone posting tonight.

[Marquis]

(expired on 2015-06-19 17:45:00)

(Fri Jun 19 @ 5:45:00 PM EST)

VOTECOUNT 1.12

• (1)

  Bellaphant

  —
  Bob Loblaw
  
  (2)

  Bicephalous Bob

  —
  Glork, Untrod Tripod
  
  (0)

  Bob Loblaw

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Fro99er

  —
  
  
  (2)

  Glork

  —
  TellTaleHeart, Bicephalous Bob
  
  (0)

  Green Crayons

  —
  
  
  (1)

  KayP

  —
  Shadoxx8
  
  (0)

  Kitty Galore

  —
  
  
  (1)

  lalaladucks

  —
  Green Crayons
  
  (2)

  Shadoxx8

  —
  KayP, Bellaphant
  
  (0)

  TellTaleHeart

  —
  
  
  (0)

  The Bulge

  —
  
  
  (2)

  Untrod Tripod

  —
  The Bulge, lalaladucks
  
  
  (2)

  (NOT VOTING)

  —
  Kitty Galore, Fro99er
  
  With
  13

  alive
  , it takes
  7

  votes
  to lynch.
  
  

  ---

  Fro99er
  is V/LA until
  Thurs Jun 18 @ 10 PM EST
  .
  
  Green Crayons
  is V/LA until
  Mon Jun 22 @ 12 AM EST
  .
  
  Bicephalous Bob
  is V/LA until
  Mon Jun 22 @ 12 AM EST
  .
  
  Untrod Tripod
  is V/LA from
  Sat Jun 20 @ 12 AM EST
  until
  Mon Jun 22 @ 12 AM EST
  .

[Bicephalous Bob]

I somehow missed glork's wall and vote on me before making my last post

I'll try to address it soon

In the mean time, glork, can you address my post starting from "pretend that I'm 3 years old"?

[Bicephalous Bob]

The "do you?" part was more fun to write though, I'm kinda disappointed you went full Thor on it

[Bellaphant]

Glork's latest post actually makes me feel a little better about the slot.

@KayP, yeah, deadline is close.

[KayP]

Note that I would also be okay with a lynch on Kitty Galore. While I still dislike Shaddox's post history so far, Kitty's is almost just as terrible and I don't like how inactive she has been... it's very easy to hide behind inactivity in this game.

[Fro99er]

Long wall post warning!

I'm working my way down Shadoxx post for highlights of what I agreed with, what I am being nitpicky about, and where I want to add more to key portions of the discussion after Shadoxx had his post 294.

@Bellaphant, your playing extremely pro-town at this point. All of your posts have been in-depth and contributive to the town. You have performed exactly as a post-card townie (gods help us if you are Mafia-alignment.). Your playing very similar to a player in my last game, Glitch, who not only was VT, but also provided posts with lots of detail and criticism of all players, rather than focussing on one player (what I call tunnel-visioning, which I can do a lot of the time, something I’m trying to rectify). You also have acted skeptical at some points, and questions peoples votes (if not in RVS).

This is a fair assessment of Bella up to this post 294, but I disagree slightly. Bella had started pretty towny for me. She pushed in the right places early with a good line of questioning of KayP to get us out of RVS, and pushed KayP for a reachy/vague post 41 (and Bella backs up her reasons in post 72), as well as the fact that GC pushed KayP into voting me. Bella makes a push on me about being on the early ducky wagon while I was finding TTH's L-2 suspicious, which is even more towny of her to realize she was misunderstanding my interpretation of my misunderstanding of TTH's triple vote joke. She then votes KayP, albeit after prodding from Glork. But it wasn't without precedence, as UT seemed to imply in 231.

But where Bella starts to worry me is she then moves her vote on to ducky for lack of content, but otherwise goes unexplained. This felt opportunistic, and at that point ducky had started to actually provide content (see Ducky content in 90, 105, 107, 141 (which was sheeped KayP reasoning though)). Yes, ducky's content wasn't fantastic, but Bella didn't really follow up on it, and it felt opportunistic to get ducky to L-2 with deadline approaching.

After post 294, Bella starts to get even worse. She changes her vote to Shadoxx for calling her town. I guess she thinks Shadoxx is cozying up to her as scum, but it feels so reactionary (I might think differently from Bella, but I start to notice buddying after a bit of a pattern of it) and again opportunistic, this time putting Shadoxx at L-3 for a single reason. She's been a wagon hopper rather than a wagon starter at every point after her KayP vote. In 340, Bella claims Shadoxx throws suspicion at her, but I don't see it above ("God help us if you are mafia" isn't exactly throwing suspicion, it's more a statement of belief in his mind). Bella, what other reasons do you have for voting Shadoxx besides them calling you towny?

TL;DR --

Bella is moving into my scum pile after an early towny start, for unoriginal and opportunistic hopping on the ducky and shadoxx wagons with weak arguments.

@Bob I say your playing town-to-null at this point. It is hard to place a player into either player (except if they have very striking play). You are not as much of a town read as Bella, because her posts have more detail IMO. However, you haven’t actively followed a bandwagon AFAIK.

This is fine too from Shadoxx. I agree, BiBob didn't have a ton of material by the time of Shadoxx's post, with the main highlights being:
- saying "the wordy people are fine"
- BobLob is formulaic
- Shadoxx case is interesting but he wants to lynch the experienced (actually, this could be a scum mindset now that I think of it)
- A little back and forth with TTH which didn't exactly move the gamestate forward

Since 294, BiBob has made an awkward push on Glork.
- It started out as "gut" in 305, yet calling glork reasonable in the same post.
- In 309, it's still gut and he's starting to disagree with his Glork read already
- Asks UT for his read on Glork in 313, then votes Glork in 329, essentially for disagreeing with Glork about Shadoxx's motivation for calling Bella towny.

But never states how Glork's disagreement with BiBob actually makes Glork scummy.

I'm still trying to figure out why BiBob thinks Glork is scummy, other than disagreeing with the Shadoxx motivation.

TL;DR --

BiBob started out kinda null with one red flag (lynch the veterans!), then made a really awkward push on Glork. Bob is trying to grasp for reasons that he hasn't even quite clearly stated, and appears wishy-washy on his Glork stance anyway. This is suuuper clumsy from BiBob. Is it scummy? I kinda think he's trying to drum up a mislynch.

@Bob#2 It may just be your play-style, but your play style isn’t being very pro-town at this point. The inclusion of pictures and filler in posts is fine, but what is questionable is your liking for joining bandwagons and overall complying with the flow. A lot of your posts have also been incredibly short, providing not much detail. IGMEOY

I can see Shadoxx's point of view about BobLob joining bandwagons and all. I mean, BobLob *hasn't* done a whole lot, but I actually think what BobLob has done been fine. He's clearly calling out attention to his bandwagon votes, which I don't see scum really doing. His cases on myself and subsequently on Bella were both towny.

@Glork. I’m not sure what to think about you. On one hand, some of your posts are rather good, but you also immediately jump to scum-team conclusion on D1. This suggests that you are anxious to end the day on a vote, as the town should only start systematically scanning for scum-tells, not pairing town players together on D1. IGMEOY.

I disagree with Shadoxx's stance on Glork, but it's pretty nit-picky on my end. I think Glork actually makes a great case on KayP in 95, and 101. Post 130 was meant to get Bella to actually do something with her vote (and it worked!), and the rest of his posts were just kinda statements, but he sets up his later push on BiBob in 293. Yes, Glork throws out a scum-team pair, but it didn't appear "anxious" IMO. It was more tongue-in-cheek from Glork.

Since 294, I actually disagree with Glork on the Shadoxx/Bella thing (like BiBob does), but I'm not using that as a reason to say Glork is scummy. In fact, Glork is interested in Shadoxx's mindest on how he formed the Bella opinion (see 331), which is the right approach. Glork's 334 is a very good retort to BiBob, especially the 3 points at the bottom of that post.

TL;DR --

This is scumhunting Glork, with a good push on KayP, Bella, and especially on BiBob.

@KayP

Oh, sure, the goal is to find mafia. I agree there, that much is obvious. But given statistics, the person you are pushing/voting/arguing with is MORE LIKELY to be town than mafia since there are way more town than mafia in games. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why you seem to be STARTING from a mindset of "this person is mafia, prove me otherwise" instead of "this person is statistically likely to be town, unless proven otherwise".

Your point here is what? Maybe I’m missing the context of this post (viewing these in ISO BTW) but what you are essentially saying is that we shouldn’t vote for people because they are likely to be town? The point of the game is to vote and find the Mafia, before they lynch all town members. This statement directly contradicts the purpose of Mafia! You are pushing for us to vote random people, which is directly in the Mafia’s favour!

What is wrong with people on this site and making reasonless votes?

There is something called RVS.

I think that KayP is currently the most scummy player. However, I do not think he is Mafia. He’s the best vote for us IMO, but with Ducks at L-1. I’m unsure whether I’ll swap over on D1.

First of all, his reasons on KayP are decent. He rightly calls out that KayP is approaching mafia from the opposite mindset of how it should be approached. He even says KayP is the most scummy player. But I WTF at "I do not think this is mafia". So they've been scummy, but not mafia, but also the best vote for us. Just...WHAT?

Anyway, I don't know where I stand on KayP. She questioned me well on my Ducky vote, even up to the point of disproving my assumption of Ducky's lack of content. That felt towny KayP. But I can't help but agree with Shadoxx that the mindset of "assume everyone is town" instead of "try to find scum" is weird and backward. That's a mafia mindset, IMO. I still need to sort KayP.

Since 294, KayP goes on the aggressive against Shadoxx's points against her in 339. I can't say I agree with KayP, and I cannot tell if her push is town motivated to find scum in Shadoxx, or overly defensive scum. She's also trying to make sense of UT, which is fine, but she should push this harder if town.

TL;DR -- I have no idea on KayP

@Kitty. Whilst you haven’t contributed much yet, you have provided a valid reason for your inactivity, so I have to place you in null for now (hate doing that )

Kitty, where are you? Contribute! If we are near deadline and need to avoid a no-lynch, this is a good policy lynch.

@TellTaleHeart. Ooh yes, I like your play style. Like Bella, you are question and scrutinising everybody, and not joining bandwagons for the sake of it like some other players. You are correct about my previous post, it was a rant more than anything, not a reason for voting Ducks. You are definitely the second highest town-read for the town.

I agree. TTH, other than that weird thing with BiBob which I don't know what to make of, has p obviously been scumhunting.

@Bulge Why the lack of posts? This early on, inactiveness must always regarded as suspicious, unless it is justified. Here, you either are simply one of those players who does not care about the game, or wants to remain in the shadows, and simply complying with what the town wants. Scum-tell right here. But not Mafia read as again, it’s only D1.

The Bulge hasn't done jack shit, and is in prod range. Has Bulge actually disappeared, or skating through D1? Considering Bulge has been fairly active elsewhere on the site, I'm leaning toward skating. If somehow we're very near deadline and need to avoid a no-lynch, Bulge, like Kitty, is a good policy lynch.

Left out UT and Crayons for now because I largely agree with Shadoxx and don't have much to add on those two.


I want to lynch BiBob. I don't think he's been pro-town at all, and to the contrary, quite scummy, with what feels like a faked, wishy-washy, gut push on Glork, with little concrete reason (other than DISAGREE WITH GLORK!) to appear to finally scumhunt, after Glork calls him out for doing jack shit in 293.
VOTE: Bicephalous Bob

[Bicephalous Bob]

Spoiler: yay walls

Now let's take a look at what BiBob does in response.

I don't know if this was in response to my catch-up posts or before them, because he said "earlier today," but my posts were less than two hours before BiBob's, so I'm going to omit this until I can get more context here.

it wasn't in response to anything in particular

Mea culpa on the hypothetical, I can see how that wouldn't carry over because all I did was start that line of thougth with "if you're going to say X, I'll respond with Y." Obivously TTH said X, so I can see how my response could be taken the way BiBob took it. Even then....

yes, you used a literary device that implies you believed something and then when asked about it you said "dude that comment was about an alternate reality where I believe things I don't actually believe it's all flying over your head"

So, let's break this down.

We know that BiBob had a pre-existing suspicion of me for ~reasons~ that remain unexplained. So he starts responding to my response to TTH, which came after his initial post that he suspected me, meaning that he's not actually providing context or explanation of any of that so-called gut read. He's just going with what was recently talked about.

yes, until then I'd called you scummy but reasonable

I never tried to hide that I was piggybacking on TTH's reasons

BiBob asks if I claim that Shadoxx looked at the vote count and made his argument. No, I don't claim that, I never did, and I never will. I don't profess to know what Shadoxx was thinking. I never implied that I thought he did this with full knowledge/context of the vote count, and I have no idea why you're including this in your argument. It reeks of wordsmithing to try to reinforce his own argument.

I'm not asking if you claimed that you looked at the vc. I'm saying that at some point or another, shadox must've looked at the vc and then he'd never done this:

newbie scum are gonna try to reduce suspicion on their possible D1 lynch candidate scum buddies

-----

He also asks if, in his reading of the vote count, he saw "himself at L-3, his buddy lala on L-1, and his other buddy with two votes." Like I said, I thought I made it very clear that I felt Lala was town, given that I hated the wagon and I hated that Bella/Shadoxx (two of my suspects) were on that wagon. Yet somehow BiBob manages to argue that I was claiming some kind of idiotic clusterfuck of scumbussing, which I DON'T think happened, and I NEVER claimed was the case.

I wasn't arguing that, I was arguing that scum shadox wouldn't defend scum bella in the way he did. see above.

THEEEEEEEN BiBob asserts that I claimed Shadoxx's thought process was "My #1 priority is making Bella look town." I absolutely NEVER claimed that either. Just because I noticed that argument doesn't mean I thought it was his #1 priority. Assuming he's scum near lynch, his #1 priority is probably not-getting-lynched, and while I specifically called out the Bella defense, it was but one point in an entire player-by-player analysis he made. And yet SOMEHOW BiBob managed to turn "Glork noticed this argumetn and asked about it" into "Glork is claiming that this is the MAIN THING SHADOXX CARED ABOUT" which is complete and utter horse shit.

I was employing hyperbole but that clearly went over your head

my point was that trying to convince people of town bella through reason wouldn't be a priority of scum shadox at all

[KayP]

Anyway, I don't know where I stand on KayP. She questioned me well on my Ducky vote, even up to the point of disproving my assumption of Ducky's lack of content. That felt towny KayP. But I can't help but agree with Shadoxx that the mindset of "assume everyone is town" instead of "try to find scum" is weird and backward. That's a mafia mindset, IMO. I still need to sort KayP.

Ugh. Wtf is this. Perhaps you should stick to statistics and leave logic to the rest of us?

In no way, shape, or form is "assume everyone is town" mutually exclusive to "try to find scum". Both of those can coexist together! You see, that's not why I said you should assume everyone is town.

I was saying that asking someone to prove their innocence is placing the burden of proof on the incorrect party. It's more likely the person you're attacking is town than scum... and therefore, you should have reasons why they are scum. You, Froggy, were saying that ducks should have to have her innocence proven, rather than you proving why she is mafia. THAT is why I brought up the "everyone is more likely to be town" bit, and in no way, shape, or form did I imply that you should not attempt to find scum.

This is totally disingenuous.

[Bellaphant]

@Frog, you know what, that's fair. I'm gonna be honest: I got a little weirded out by TTH's push on me, and the 'houseplant' comment threw me for a loop and my play dipped. Sure you know why I'm wary of drama right now. About the suspicion bit: it seemed such an odd read, considering I was gaining some votes by that point, so 'postcard townie' can't have been true. if I was the lynch for today, and flipped scum (not happening) after that post would you look at shadox? No, 'coz scum wouldn't be that blatant, right? (I think they would). Similarly, if shaddox flips scum, scum still want mislynches, so the same thing: who was shaddox giving weird town reads on...? There's also just plain old buddying. I'd say I was just paranoid about that, but the 'Kay is the most scummy, not scummy, so I won't vote, but I will...

I should probably follow my town-reads for a bit (you, GC). I'm even warming up to Kay (null, rather than town, but getting better). :S

[Fro99er]

Anyway, I don't know where I stand on KayP. She questioned me well on my Ducky vote, even up to the point of disproving my assumption of Ducky's lack of content. That felt towny KayP. But I can't help but agree with Shadoxx that the mindset of "assume everyone is town" instead of "try to find scum" is weird and backward. That's a mafia mindset, IMO. I still need to sort KayP.

Ugh. Wtf is this. Perhaps you should stick to statistics and leave logic to the rest of us?

In no way, shape, or form is "assume everyone is town" mutually exclusive to "try to find scum". Both of those can coexist together! You see, that's not why I said you should assume everyone is town.

Fair enough. But your mindset is still backward. The point I'm making is your mindset is "assume everyone is town" contradicts how to play the game. I play the game by FINDING SCUM. Here is your earlier post on it:

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why you seem to be STARTING from a mindset of "this person is mafia, prove me otherwise" instead of "this person is statistically likely to be town, unless proven otherwise".

If I have the mindset of "this person is mafia" it's because I found something they did scummy, not because I'm approaching with a presupposed mindset that they are mafia. You're making stuff up about my mindset.

I was saying that asking someone to prove their innocence is placing the burden of proof on the incorrect party. It's more likely the person you're attacking is town than scum... and therefore, you should have reasons why they are scum. You, Froggy, were saying that ducks should have to have her innocence proven, rather than you proving why she is mafia. THAT is why I brought up the "everyone is more likely to be town" bit, and in no way, shape, or form did I imply that you should not attempt to find scum.

I found, early in the game, her lack of what I perceived of as a lack of productive content, to be scummy. I did not come in with a "this person is mafia, prove me otherwise" mindset (as you state), but as a "I need to sort this person" mindset. I moved them into my early scumpile based off that lack of content, combined with some meta. I did not start with a mindset of "she is scum". I let what little facts there were at the time start to form my opinion (of which I have since changed...GASP!)

This is totally disingenuous.

FFS, what is disengenuous? I'm very sincere when I say I believe you are approaching the game from the wrong mindset. I also am sincere in saying I don't know what to make of your slot.

Jesus freaking christ. I was simply saying I agreed with Shadoxx's stance on the mindset, and not yours. I don't need to get into some shitty theory debate.

[Fro99er]

Spoiler: @Bella (so I don't piss everyone off with walls)

@Frog, you know what, that's fair. I'm gonna be honest: I got a little weirded out by TTH's push on me, and the 'houseplant' comment threw me for a loop and my play dipped.

Yes, it did.

Sure you know why I'm wary of drama right now.

<3

About the suspicion bit: it seemed such an odd read, considering I was gaining some votes by that point, so 'postcard townie' can't have been true.

I mean, I think you were mostly a post-card townie at the time, but as I pointed out you were starting to move into my town pile. I just don't understand your reaction. Why did you react that way to Shadoxx? Usually, if someone is buddying, I personally wait for a pattern of it throughout the day. Not one "holy fuck" reaction to a single post. Maybe that's just me. Can you explain your sudden reaction?

if I was the lynch for today, and flipped scum (not happening) after that post would you look at shadox? No, 'coz scum wouldn't be that blatant, right? (I think they would). Similarly, if shaddox flips scum, scum still want mislynches, so the same thing: who was shaddox giving weird town reads on...? There's also just plain old buddying. I'd say I was just paranoid about that, but the 'Kay is the most scummy, not scummy, so I won't vote, but I will...

If you flip, if shadoxx flips, if whoever flips, I'll try to analyze based off the information available at the time. You know that...right? I kept an open mind in Ori, didn't I? Moved off my Chokari deal as evidence became available, even though Sonic flipped town.

I should probably follow my town-reads for a bit (you, GC). I'm even warming up to Kay (null, rather than town, but getting better). :S

I still cannot start to make out Kay. What has made you move from scum toward null on her?

[The Bulge]

ah fook

[Bellaphant]

@Frog

Spoiler:

I take the feedback, and I'm gonna use the night-phase to re-read and get my groove back. In the other game we actually communicated well, so hopefully you are town and we can repeat.

See, that's the bit I would disagree on, that I was playing as 'post-card townie', otherwise TTH and Glork wouldn't have seen anything to push. Maybe I overreacted to Shaddox's slight buddying because it felt so disproportionate? I do understand what you are saying, though...

Yeah, I meant the general 'you', sorry. IRT Kay, she's engaging well now, and even if I don't agree with everything, she is prodding at kind of the right things. Also, no lynching is bad for town, and she seems flexible enough with her reads to want to avoid this. It's not enough for a town-read yet, though.

[Kitty Galore]

Ok here is a read list, not great but something...

Bella- lean town
GC-null-
lalaladucks-lean scum-
Glork- lean town-
Fro99er-null-
KayP-null-

in answer to your question, I didn't comment on Fro99er's dislike of ducks posts because I read the last page or so and wanted to ask questions and contribute while on a short break at work phone posting.

Bob Loblaw-null
Shaddox-lean newb town
UT-null
TTH-null
BiBob-lean town
Bulge-null






I had every intention to be more active than I have been and I just dropped off. I started a new job and the hours and training are kicking my ass. This is a pretty heavy game and it is my 4th on this site. I hate having this many null reads. I will try to make more sense of this and I will be more active as I am almost through my training phase.

[Green Crayons]

If it's between Bob and Glork I'll vote Bob but honestly I'm sort of flummoxed on reads atm.

UNVOTE: ducks

[Fro99er]

Ok here is a read list, not great but something...
[snip readlist]

So you have one scum lean. Can you explain why ducky is your sole scum lean? Why aren't you voting anyone? We're near deadline and we need your opinions and reasons for your reads.

[Marquis]

Bob Loblaw is being prodded.

[Glork]

TBH a big part of me would be fine with lynching Kitty or Bulge at this point. This is fucking ridiculous. If you're not going to play the game, don't sign up, or replace out. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you're lurkerscum.

[The Bulge]

Sorry. Not a fan of Day 1 (and I kind of forgot I was in this)

I'll read tonight.

[Marquis]

JUST OVER 20 HOURS TO DEADLINE

(AS OF THIS POST)

[Bob Loblaw]

sup fuckers

[Bob Loblaw]

uggghhhhhhhhhhh

walls

ughhhjhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Bob Loblaw]

TTH is town as fucking hell

GC and UT can be masons idgaf

Want to lynch Bella or Frogger but I remember feeling bothered by Glork I don't know I'm gonna read again.

[Bob Loblaw]

KayP is town I think

My point was, if people don't push on Shadoxx (or Kitty), we're just going to let them sit there and do fuck all in a quick game. It's one thing to go V/LA or just completely flake. It's another thing to be active elsewhere yet not post in this thread.

Oh, we are allowed to mention this? I thought we couldn't mention this because of ongoing games rules... if that's the case, then I noticed ducks avoiding this thread specifically while posting heavily in other games. It was specifically around the 4-5 page mark of this thread, while ducks was a very heavy center of discussion between myself, Frogger, and Glork. In fact, she was posting elsewhere, and didn't come back until after Fro99er backed down and then Glork attacked me. It looks very suspicious that ducks was observably active on the forum but avoided this thread until the heat on her had died down.

This is a really cool post and shows a very proactive effort of keeping tabs on ducks, not entirely something I'd expect from scum.