Mini 1687: Refraction Mafia (WINNER!)

[Aeronaut]

VC 1.8

VoteCount 1.8

Mathdino

-

Cthulhu Dreaming

(L-6)

toolenduso

-

texcat

(L-6)

CB -

Mathdino

(L-6)

Cthulhu Dreaming -

Zoronos

(L-6)

Thor665 -

BlueBloodedToffee, Fro99er

(L-5)

Shinobi -

texcat -

Plotinus

-

Shinobi, CB

(L-5)

Fro99er

-

toolenduso

(L-6)

BlueBloodedToffee -

abuse

-

Lapsa

-

Zoronos

-

Thor665, Lapsa, abuse

(L-4)

Not Voting

-

Plotinus

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2015-06-28 23:00:32)

Cthulhu Dreaming is V/LA until Saturday
Abuse will be V/LA until until Wednesday

[Thor665]

You don't seem to have a problem with Lapsa sheeping you. May I ask why? Especially as you don't seem to have a read on him. Why are you not interacting with him to develop a read?

May I ask why I should have an issue with Lapsa sheeping me? Even if he's scum - functionally that's still 2 town votes, so...?
I agree, i don't have a good read on him.
I am not interacting with him to develop a read because there is no money in it, as evidence I submit to you everyone else interacting with him.

As I understand it, you seem to think Zor is claiming Math said things that Math claims he did not say and thus Zor is scum because Math didn't say those things and Zor is unwilling to reconsider his read in light of this.

You are correct.
How do you feel about this case?

How do you feel about the people who have decided to join you on your Zor wagon?

If I found them scummier than Zoronos I'd be voting them.
I am null on Lapsa.
Abuse I probably lean slight town on at this point which I think is where I was at last time I was asked on him, and if not that's where I am now.

Incidentally, it is now the 3 people who quickly jumped off the Math wagon. I feel very confident there is AT LEAST one scum in you three.

Theoretically there is probably one scum in any random group of three you choose to name. I could say [Zoronos, Mathdino, BBT] and likely also have at least one scum there. That is statistics. Your theory is either I'm town with a sheeping scum, or I am scum with sheeping town? Okay - that's a serious Catch-22 attitude though, so it's not very compelling as a case.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

May I ask why I should have an issue with Lapsa sheeping me? Even if he's scum - functionally that's still 2 town votes, so...?
I agree, i don't have a good read on him.
I am not interacting with him to develop a read because there is no money in it, as evidence I submit to you everyone else interacting with him.

OK, maybe it's not a problem with the sheeping and more a problem with you seeming unwilling to establish a read on another player.

You are correct.
How do you feel about this case?

I feel it holds very little weight, especially in light of Zor's posting as a whole.

If I found them scummier than Zoronos I'd be voting them.
I am null on Lapsa.
Abuse I probably lean slight town on at this point which I think is where I was at last time I was asked on him, and if not that's where I am now.

OK, so given you're citing other people's interactions with Lapsa as your reasoning for avoiding interacting with him I will now ask; how are you planning on reading him in this game?

Theoretically there is probably one scum in any random group of three you choose to name. I could say [Zoronos, Mathdino, BBT] and likely also have at least one scum there. That is statistics. Your theory is either I'm town with a sheeping scum, or I am scum with sheeping town? Okay - that's a serious Catch-22 attitude though, so it's not very compelling as a case.

You can try to turn it into a theory post if you like, but we both know that's not the case. You can try and pretend I haven't given reasoning for why I think there is scum in you three, but we both know that's not the case.

I don't believe I have stated you are town. I also don't believe I have ruled out scum sheeping scum. Can you tell me where you developed your theories from?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mod, has Math been prodded?

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[Thor665]

OK, maybe it's not a problem with the sheeping and more a problem with you seeming unwilling to establish a read on another player.

Do you think anyone has a legit read on Lapsa at this point in the game?
I am hardly alone in lacking one, I am also hardly alone in not engaging him, I am honest in that I don't have a good read on him.
Basically you're taking umbrage with me for being honest about something that others are lying to you and/or themselves about.

I feel it holds very little weight, especially in light of Zor's posting as a whole.

Do you think he is or is not overlooking Mathdino's commentary to him?
If you think he isn't overlooking it - why isn't he addressing it?
If you think he's just misunderstanding it - why do you think that's still happening at this stage.
Both options, if he's town, seem to require a lack of awareness that is pretty monumental. Agree/disagree?

OK, so given you're citing other people's interactions with Lapsa as your reasoning for avoiding interacting with him I will now ask; how are you planning on reading him in this game?

I figure either I'll take a shot at him eventually and sort it afterwards or I'll just force a lynch on him out of annoyance.
Why, what was your plan?

You can try to turn it into a theory post if you like, but we both know that's not the case. You can try and pretend I haven't given reasoning for why I think there is scum in you three, but we both know that's not the case.

I think it's exactly the case - and even if you don't it hardly weakens the point I raised.

I don't believe I have stated you are town.

You have not, though you do seem to not be having an issue with my vote move and are having an issue with other people's vote moves - so I preumed there was a chance you were considering that I was town and not scum. If your mind is made up about me I apologize for suggesting you were weighing options.

I also don't believe I have ruled out scum sheeping scum.

That would require me to be scum and for one of them to be a scumbuddy who hard sheeps - wwhich of them do you think it is that plays like that and why do you think this?

Can you tell me where you developed your theories from?

From your words - though I was making some presuppositions of 'logical play' that were apparently wrong in your mind.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This 2-player game is fun.

Do you think anyone has a legit read on Lapsa at this point in the game?
I am hardly alone in lacking one, I am also hardly alone in not engaging him, I am honest in that I don't have a good read on him.
Basically you're taking umbrage with me for being honest about something that others are lying to you and/or themselves about.

I don't know. I have seen two people at least give pretty bad reasoning to town read him. I think he is scum, but I think I'm the only one who thinks it.

You're right, you're not the only one who doesn't have a read on Lapsa. But, then again, you are alone in hardly engaging/commenting on most of the player base outside of your pushes on Math and Zor. Lapsa also isn't just sheeping anyone else, they're sheeping you. So you have some sort of foundation for which you can use to gain a read on him but you haven't taken it.

I'm taking umbrage with you seemingly being unwilling to interact/engage/develop reads on anyone outside of your pushes. Lapsa is just one example and I use that example because of reasons stated above.

Do you think he is or is not overlooking Mathdino's commentary to him?
If you think he isn't overlooking it - why isn't he addressing it?
If you think he's just misunderstanding it - why do you think that's still happening at this stage.
Both options, if he's town, seem to require a lack of awareness that is pretty monumental. Agree/disagree?

I'm really not interested in inserting myself into that discussion, but, I will start a new one with you. Tell me, what is the scum motivation behind what Zor did in defending Math so early and as hard as he did?

I figure either I'll take a shot at him eventually and sort it afterwards or I'll just force a lynch on him out of annoyance.
Why, what was your plan?

I have a read on him. Didn't even need to interact with him to get it either.

If you're 'going to take a shot eventually' then your reasoning for not doing so now makes no sense as the same reasons will still apply later in the game.

I think it's exactly the case - and even if you don't it hardly weakens the point I raised.

No, it isn't. And yes, it does. I haven't simply selected three people at random, there is reasoning behind the three people I chose.

You have not, though you do seem to not be having an issue with my vote move and are having an issue with other people's vote moves - so I preumed there was a chance you were considering that I was town and not scum. If your mind is made up about me I apologize for suggesting you were weighing options.

No, I very much think you're scum. Hence my vote on you.

That would require me to be scum and for one of them to be a scumbuddy who hard sheeps - which of them do you think it is that plays like that and why do you think this?

It could be either, more likely to be Abuse than Lapsa based purely on the openness with which Lapsa does it. Abuse took the long way around, voting Tool before rejoining you on a different wagon.

I mean, it's not like there HAS to be two scum in you three, but there is definitely at least one.

[Fro99er]

I mean, it's not like there HAS to be two scum in you three, but there is definitely at least one.

[Shinobi]

This 2-player game is fun.

Fwiw I'm reading everything you two are saying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And what do you think about it Shin?

[Shinobi]

It mostly seems like TvT, fwiw.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What makes you think that?

Are you town reading both Thor and myself independent of our discussion? If so, why?

[toolenduso]

Should have announced this yesterday, but I'll be

V/LA until Monday.

[Shinobi]

What makes you think that?

I think the two of you are being rather reasonable in regards to the questions you're asking each other/the issues you're bringing up, but your fight reads as somewhat pedantic otherwise.

Are you town reading both Thor and myself independent of our discussion?

No.

[Plotinus]

I think BBT might be town, actually. Something about the way he’s been interacting with me. Even though his complaints about me feels kinda like burden of profficiency which is weird but I don’t think he’s being unfair about it. I’ve been really lacklustre this game and I have no idea why. I’ve read the thread several times over trying to make sense of things and I just can’t sink my teeth into it.

anyway, replies to his questions.

(yeah, bbt not voting is weird)

What is weird about me not voting?

because you’re usually excited about wagons and usually telling people to vote and saying you’d be more comfortable with them if they were voting.

the tldr of the frogger thing was

1) on again off again buddying me
2) giving inaccurate information about what sorts of things are alignment indicative for me
3) coaching me
4) creating false associative tells between [him]self and a town-aligned player (me) so that i will look bad after [he] flip scum
5) something incomprehensible about a counterwagon

but i actually did want a sanity check on that because I couldn’t tell if I was just reading too much into things. A few days later, I now think that tldr was more like we both thought the other had insulted our intelligence. but point 4 was what felt like the biggest thing at the time (and incidentally probably the poorest topic for scumtheatre that I can think of).

[Mathdino]

Yo, lotta stuff going on, this game is gonna take a bit more time to get back into than usual. Will come up with a reads list in the next couple days to get back in.

3. Okay, so we're down to at least 50% of his votes being dumb or not scumhunting. I'm also not really sold on the Abuse or Text pushes, but I guess if they're impressive to you I can't claim they're not impressive to you. They're not impressive to me.

Haven't read past here, just want to say that I absolutely refuse to be lynched for being bad. Yes, I change my mind a lot. That's because apparently fencesitting all over the place like I used to do is bad play. So I go after people. But not all my pushes are good and I absolutely despise tunneling. Intent is to see the entire game as a big picture, and as such I take a few moments every now and then to reevaluate the entire game to make SURE I'm not tunneling. And as time goes on in D1 I'm more likely to be right.

This means I drop cases instantly when I see obvious townposting.

This means I drop cases instantly when the reason I'm voting someone is nullified by them.

And in my opinion for how I think, that's the optimal playstyle I have. Because I'm not going to be right from the beginning, I'm going to delude myself into a few bullshit pushes just to get my bearings. And then the ball gets rolling and I change my mind. Right now I really like a texcat push because this Plotinus wagon? It's certainly bullshit. And I'm surprised barely anyone's even commented on the texcat thing in the past, what, 8 pages? So I need to reread. Reevaluate.

tl;dr: Fuck everyone who thinks I should be lynched for being bad at scumhunting off the bat.

And hell, Thor, from my standpoint 100% of your votes are dumb or not scumhunting. Zor (prior to this clusterfuck of a last 8 pages) is my top townread, and BBT is correct that you're focusing on literally no one else. I said I have no interest in lynching you because I think you're a good player and I want to work with you, but so far in my eyes you're doing NOTHING helpful to find scum. And on the flip side I haven't seen you reevaluate once. This isn't me trying to be all "oh ho ho, maybe everyone voting me is scum" and cast suspicion wildly. This is me speaking to you as a player, do you actually have no other reads that I can work with? And if so please link me to them because I may just have read right over them.

Addendum: Not sure if this helps or not but I haven't mentioned this because I thought it'd be weird/awkward. First thing I did before I posted was look at Thor's wiki. And the only thing I remember from it was to ALWAYS be using your vote for something. And that's been in the back of my mind this game and has influenced specifically my playstyle this game, and that's why I was talking about voting Lapsa because that's where I felt my vote was best served. So first thing I'm probably gonna do in post-game is ask everyone who's played more than I have, "WTF did I do wrong this time?" Unless you're scum, in which case, you know, respect for casing me and all that shit.

Whatever. Insight into my mind. Continuing to read, will post catchup or reads list at some point.

[Plotinus]

hmm, i can see a few things about texcat (such as him sitting on that tool vote since 37) but I don’t really see the connection you are trying to draw between him and my wagon?

also, he called my disagreement with frogger TvT which I think would be risky for scum to do because if you commit to too many townreads you can get in trouble later if they don’t make any convenient mistakes at the right time. that happened to me in my offsite scum game, there was someone i’d been townreading the whole game because she just looked really townie to me and she was doing a good job keeping up with stuff even though she had pneumonia and anyway she made it to LYLO and I had to either turn on her or bus somebody so I wrote a wishywashy wall about how i just didn’t know. so that’s why i think texcat could be town.

[Mathdino]

hmm, i can see a few things about texcat (such as him sitting on that tool vote since 37) but I don’t really see the connection you are trying to draw between him and my wagon?

also, he called my disagreement with frogger TvT which I think would be risky for scum to do because if you commit to too many townreads you can get in trouble later if they don’t make any convenient mistakes at the right time. that happened to me in my offsite scum game, there was someone i’d been townreading the whole game because she just looked really townie to me and she was doing a good job keeping up with stuff even though she had pneumonia and anyway she made it to LYLO and I had to either turn on her or bus somebody so I wrote a wishywashy wall about how i just didn’t know. so that’s why i think texcat could be town.

1. No connection. All the major wagons suck balls. May look into CD, that's the only one I could potentially see myself on.

2. On the flip side you could end up with a ton of townreads as scum because you know who's town. I've played with scum-texcat before, I'll go do a once-over of that game.

[Plotinus]

oh, ok. it’s just you mentioned him and me in the same sentence so i thought it was related.

re: point 2. yeah, that can happen but it makes it hard to mislynch people i think.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@all.

I've asked Aero for replacement. I'm having some mental health issues that I thought I could work through but I'm simply not able to keep up with this game. Thanks for your understanding.

[Mathdino]

Hope everything works out, CD.

[Fro99er]

@all.

I've asked Aero for replacement. I'm having some mental health issues that I thought I could work through but I'm simply not able to keep up with this game. Thanks for your understanding.

Wishing you the best

[Zoronos]

Zor, can you explain town read on Plotinus please?

Also, this is the second time you have used 'his posting makes me laugh' as a reason to town read Lapsa. Do you have anything that's actually alignment indicative?

Lapsa - No, nothing alignment indicating; just gut. There is probably some bias from agreement, since I think CB is scummy and he also thinks so.

Plot - I liked 48, and 53 felt reasonable. I thought Texcat's question to him was unnecessarily pejorative, and that was a good response to it; he doesn't feel the pressure to make up an early read when he doesn't have one yet.
I like his push on CB in 160. His followup thought in 299 echoed my initial impression of CB's post (the part about CB's post looking like a surface skim of 'people that have had suspicion voiced').
The general vibe I get from him is that he's a newbie that makes a lot of communication mistakes. He's trying to use 'mafia words' without necessarily understanding them, especially in his later posts. His fight with Frogger seems to be just rife with them.
He's seems to have a set of 'scumtells' that he knows exist and it looks like he's trying to apply them, but is doing so very inexpertly. Though not necessarily scummily, if that makes sense. I don't get the impression he's trying to actively push mislynches, even though I disagree with some of his reads.

I did miss something in 160 though on first read through. "I’m not really sure why you voted me at the end of it, because the parts directed at me didn’t seem stronger than the parts directed at anyone else. (huh, mathdino counted 6. now i’m wondering who i missed)" <- "Why Me?". I see a lot more 'These other people are also scummy, why me?' from scum than from town.

[Plotinus]

Ok, thanks for the sanity check. it helps me when others tell me whether i’m being wrong or not.

Limited repertoire might be a large part of it actually, both in “collections of situations I can recognise" sense and in the "collection of mafia phrases other people have said when they were reading someone correctly" sense. What BBT and Fro99er are picking up on, though, is that I’m usually better at aiming the collection of mafia phrases in the right direction (if not neccessarily at scum, at least at a situation where the phrase makes sense).

In Elemental Mafia, a few of the early phrases I used were stolen from BBT himself and then he replaced in so I stopped doing it but that’s why he was townreading me there; I was using his exact words in situations I’d seen him use them before, and then I used a sentence I’d learned from singersigner and then everyone else townread me because it was a good sentence and then it didn’t matter that my speech wasn’t very communicative or that I was hanging back and trying to stay out of the way of people who knew what they were doing.

And then in the two completed newbie games BBT saw me in the situation was simpler and it was easier to read and I wasn’t thinking “I have no idea if any of these words are true or what they are trying to accomplish at this place in the conversation” everytime someone posted.

[Lapsa]

VOTE: Thor665

off by one

[texcat]

Lapsa, I don't think I'm following all of your wagon switches. I thought you had some good points in your case on Mathdino. You even had some reasons for Chulthu. But these recent hops to Zor and Thor look a little random to me.