Mini 1687: Refraction Mafia (WINNER!)

[Plotinus]

Bella, when i first saw your reads list, it looked like something was off about it to me. I then went and did my homework to try to find out what it was. Then I reported back that actually, the thing that I thought was wrong wasn’t the problem so I’m dropping it until I know what my deal is.

Maybe talking about the reads we disagree on will help me figure out where you’re coming from. Can you talk some more about Thor, Abuse, CB, Zor, and Math. Also BBT while you’re at because while I agree with you that BBT is probably town I think we got there in different ways.

The reason I talked about Thor a couple times in a row was because another player asked me to clarify what I was talking about. My stance didn’t change between those posts but I tried to use different words to show what I meant.

[Zoronos]

@Zor: why is announcing that you are too lazy to read not terrible? It doesn't show you want to progress the game. Also, what you said about Plot in this post is just untrue, as post 52 by Tex asks exactly this.

So, that post gave a declaration of laziness, followed by a read, followed by engagement of another player. How is that not progressing the game? Calling a declaration of 'laziness' terrible means you're looking for an "Ah ha!" without considering if I have actually been lazy this game or not.
Your declaration seems suspicious!

Also, you're wrong about Texcat's 52. Tex's 52 was after Plot's statement about reading Frogger. In it, Tex says "That's the 2nd time you've mentioned your ability to read Frogger." Plot volunteered the ability to read Frogger, *then afterwards* people questioned it. That seems like "without prompting" (to use my language) to me. Plot's declaration happened, then Texcat's post. You can't prompt from the future.
That post from Tex was also pejorative about Plot saying they could read Frogger (The "What's up with that?" language). Check 63 where Texcat again expresses skepticism about declarations from one player that they can read another.

So, yeah, you're wrong about order of events which means you're calling my post untrue incorrectly or you're mischaracterizing that post.
Why you mischaracterizing my posts Bella? (This is me being pejorative.)

[Fro99er]

Gonna take some time and put together a one-stop-shop-type case for Frogger because I feel like people aren't really paying attention to it :/

Please do. Still waiting. Either way, I'm not getting lynched today. But it will be good to hear your case on me so I can determine where your mindset is and why.

[Bellaphant]

@Plot, yeah, maybe we should chat.

I guess the 'dropping it until I know what my deal is' feels fake, like you are queuing up something in advance. Can you understand that? (Genuine question)

Okay, so:
(Actually, your lasts reads list was AGES ago, so I don't know what's changed for you.) But,

Abuse: I think he's doing some interesting things, especially early game, that seem to be genuine questions. His page 10 was pretty good and although some of the engagement has dropped off, I like the way he's prodding a bunch of different players.
CB: My town-read of him was pretty strong early game, I like the push on Zor. His recent interaction with you/Zor about reads is funky, though.
Zor: Maybe I'm tunneling, but in my catch up post I've made this pretty clear.
Math: his early game was really, really scummy. He sheeped BBT over something odd. This might be more associative, but the slot isn't giving me town-feels.
BBT: post 450 was good, he's doing similar to abuse in that he's interacting with a bunch of different players, looks like he's figuring out. His meta statement on you is odd, esp as his read on you isn't clear.
Thor: I don't know. I was pretty clear, but like I said, Frog's point made me think and now my next task is to re-read in Iso.

You?

Talk to me about the tex/tool/shinobi trio as well? (Difficult to sort. Tex prolly most town)

[Bellaphant]

@Zor, that's actually helpful: I thought it was her comments after this that were problematic to you. Your read of events seems less logical, but the way you've explained it makes sense. What I read was 'I'm gonna talk about Frogger' 'Why?' 'Because...' and the you calling the 'because' the statement of responsibility. But, apparently not.

[Fro99er]

Talk to me about the tex/tool/shinobi trio as well? (Difficult to sort. Tex prolly most town)

FWIW I don't have anyone of those three as scum. Tool would be the closest, but he's overall in my null pile.

[Bellaphant]

@Frog, that's kinda where I am too.

[Shinobi]

Talk to me about the tex/tool/shinobi trio as well? (Difficult to sort.

Tex prolly most town

)

How exactly?

[Shinobi]

Forgive me if I missed something but I'm browsing along at work.

@Bell: Top town is probably frogger atm. I think tex is an okay lynch at this point in time and I'm not a fan of tool's most recent post.

[Shinobi]

Specifically I want the bolded elaborated on. I'm aware I've been kind of away from the thread until recently so whatever.

@Plot, who else is scum?

[Plotinus]

@Bella: If I had something concrete to say, I’d just come out and say it. But I think I know what you mean because it drives me batshit when someone’s entire case against me is “something feels off” and “Plotinus is scum because Plotinus is scum” which was happening a lot in my recently completed large and I don’t want to do that to you, regardless of your alignment. Gut reads are okay, but if you can’t find something to point to then they’re useless for helping other players understand what you’re seeing, and you can’t really defend yourself against them. Think of it as a note to self if you want.

Abuse: is sort of null for me right now. He might have been egging me on a bit about fro99er which is something scum did to me against another townie on day 10 of we didn’t playtest this so i’m a bit wary of him right now.

CB: I recently said that zor was making me want to back off from pushing CB and I’m still trying to figure out what that means.

As for Zor, he’s a townlean for me but he has a lot more mafia theory than scumhunting in his ISO so far. One thing I have liked from him is the way he’s approaching people and trying to work with them, for example trying to get Lapsa to participate or trying to give me the benefit of the doubt earlier.

Math: I’m not seeing it. I think that’s just playstyle for him. And I think trying to get the game out of RVS and into the serious reads stage is protown. I’ve seen BBT do stuff like that on page 1 and usually it helps.

BBT: Lots of little things reminding me of things he’s said to me in previous games combined with the way he’s interacting with my slot in spite of the “why isn’t Plotinus playing her alleged town meta” distraction. sorry for vague but it’s just lots of little “how his pushes against me feel from the inside out” stuff that I’m having trouble articulating. He hasn’t interacted with you much yet because you’ve just subbed in so I thought it would be harder for you to get there via the same route because you haven’t had time to have a conversation yet.

Thor: scroll up i did a wall recently.


Tex: His early push on me was kinda lame but the way Texcat responded to me vs frogger seemed towny enough to me. I can sympathise with the feeling of “ugh everytime i try to read this game by brain goes nope” but even I’m starting to get into the game finally so I’d like to see more from him eventually.

Tool: town points for actually looking up frogger’s meta instead of taking math at his word. His VCA is interesting (in a good way) but ultimately meaningless without flips. i don’t like the frogger vote because frogger is probably town and, again, saying what a person’s voting patterns mean without any flips is fruitless. Like, it means something whether most of the people he’s voting are scum or town. But i like the way he’s analysing player’s motivations, including mine.

Shinobi: is probably town. asks good questions. is trying to figure people out.


pedit: @Shinobi i’m currently leaning cb/thor/bella but that’s each independent of each other and i don’t think they’re all scum together.

[Fro99er]

I think tex is an okay lynch at this point in time

Apologies if I missed this before, but why? IMO it's not the best idea

[Fro99er]

He might have been egging me on a bit about fro99er

That's interesting, because Abuse kept calling me town while kept saying my reasons were shit.

[Thor665]

If I were scum and somebody told me I was playing using a bunch of standardized phrases and tells, I would probably deny it and get at least a little defensive because it's a way of accusing you of having reads that aren't genuine. Like even if they don't call you scum for it, the behavior is one that is scummy because it means you're using reasoning that isn't your own to develop reads, which is something scum -- who don't have genuine reads -- might do to make it look like they're really scumhunting.

Plot has never once gotten confrontational about anything he's been called on, he slightly agrees with everything.
Do you have scum meta of him that suggests different?
I mean, I guess I understand your logic now - I'm just not sure why you think that Plot plays like you would.

Well I certainly screwed up the formatting in that. Trying again, same post, fixed the links:

Spoiler: fixed formatting

653 That's not discrediting. The second part is hedging the read. The first part is just analysis, CB is saying that if he dies and flips town my reads will all look bad which if I am mafia is not a thing I would likely do. (Basically it would thwart my ability to set up future mislynches by undermining me on the first)
647 That's not distancing. Distancing would be both CB and I being scum, and CB soft pushes or soft scum reads me to make it seem like we're not on the same team. Him town reading me isn't distancing.
638 / 627 That's not proper use of 'Narrative' - CB isn't pushing a scum read or a specific story-of-the-game. From my perspective, he is flagging that I am building an associative chain off of him being scummy. Which is a thing I did, kinda.
This one is arguable. Might be correct, but I wouldn't use 'narrative' here. Reductionist would be a better word to describe what was going on.

In 597 Plot straight up says he is misusing phrases.

516 These ones are buried deep near the end, but this isn't how an associative tell works. He also misunderstands what Frogger means by Counterwagon.
512 Misunderstands how 'interactions' work, and 'associative tells' is used I am pretty sure incorrectly. It actually seems to be used meaninglessly in this situation, since what exactly the tell is is never defined.
439 Fails to understand what Frogger meant by 'counterwagon'. I think Plot is actually using it correctly here, but failed to parse the context correctly so jumped to a really weird conclusion. So I'm leaving it in the list because. 'Associatives' gets thrown again here without really meaning anything.

I got lazy past this point, so there may be more.

Eh. I don't think we agree about what qualifies misuse.

His vote on Zor was super opportunistic. Basically CB said Zor isn't being paranoid enough, and Thor was like "oooh that pings", then voted Zor. He tried digging up reasons later.

Did you fail to notice that I had a case on Zor for quite a while *prior* to my vote and actually it was my case on Zor which was what I was discussing with CB for multiple posts?
Dear gawd you people are blind as hell.

I think of the three Thor is what i’m most worried about because of the way he kept trying to draw other people into his arguments, for example drawing zor in to the mathdino discussion, not in a sanity check sense or a come on sheep me on this please sense, but in a come on let’s bog the thread down further with semantics arguments sense.

I AM NOT DEBATING SEMANTICS WITH ZOR IN ANY WAY AT ALL.
I am also not failing to interact with people nor failing to offer reads.
What the living hell do you people think you're voting me over?
At least just call it "Gut" then it will piss me off less because the case will sound less stupid.

[Plotinus]

He might have been egging me on a bit about fro99er

That's interesting, because Abuse kept calling me town while kept saying my reasons were shit.

67 (seemed like a “get’s out popcorn” reaction which is not a town reaction), 249 is i think what you’re referring to there, something about the tone of 355, and then 479 if you look at what it was responding to you can see i was already leaning that way and he pushes me a little further in that direction. basically. it’s subtle. but it was subtle in my large too. it doesn’t take much to someone into confbias land if you can see they’re almost there.

bbmolla starting here (and continuing onto the next page; he was lynched that day phase and his posts are short so it’s a quick read. lots of little nudges and buddying me it what later turned out to be mylo. In hindsight, I should have known something was up when he said "you're like the one wallposter I enjoy reading plot".)

[Shinobi]

I think tex is an okay lynch at this point in time

Apologies if I missed this before, but why? IMO it's not the best idea

Because she's posting the bare minimum and doesn't care about what's going on.

Is there a reason to call her town?

[Fro99er]

I think tex is an okay lynch at this point in time

Apologies if I missed this before, but why? IMO it's not the best idea

Because she's posting the bare minimum and doesn't care about what's going on.

Is there a reason to call her town?

Because what she has posted has been more on the towny side. Activity =/= alignment.

I didn't care for a bit either. It's pretty easy to glaze over when viewing this game.

[Bellaphant]

@Shinobi, I meant out of the three of you. You are currently smack-bang as null, and tool is the scummier end. Interesting you'd picked up on that too. As for Tex, I like the questions she's asking. I agree (p-edit) with Shinobi that there's not a huge amount there, but that's also the case for...Shinobi right now Tool's posts are giving me bad 'gut-vibes', though.

The plot/Frog push on Thor...:S

[Shinobi]

I think tex is an okay lynch at this point in time

Apologies if I missed this before, but why? IMO it's not the best idea

Because she's posting the bare minimum and doesn't care about what's going on.

Is there a reason to call her town?

Because what she has posted has been more on the towny side. Activity =/= alignment.

I didn't care for a bit either. It's pretty easy to glaze over when viewing this game.

This is just not true.

[Fro99er]

What's not true?

[Shinobi]

I was commenting on the whole activity =/= alignment bit, btw.

[Bellaphant]

Shinobi, what's not towny about it?
I can see you have an issue with it, I can't see what/why?

[Fro99er]

If you think I'm lying, then why am I your towniest read?

[Plotinus]

not true of texcat specifically, or not true in general?

[Shinobi]

If you think I'm lying, then why am I your towniest read?

I don't think you're lying in the sense that you're purposefully trying to mislead me; I just think that your assessment of people who don't post not meaning anything is incorrect.

There is a world of difference between you and texcat.