NY 184: a help (done)

[Ankamius]

Hi. What is the RC hate coming from?

[Ankamius]

Hi Grimm. It's been a wile, hasn't it?

[Ankamius]

Hi Grimm. It's been a wile, hasn't it?

Just to catch you up Amkamius, you just got a town role PM, Im town too and am the only player pushing a logical scum read, and everyone one else is grappling with the effects of chronic acid consumption.

Gl

Cool stuff. Can you sum up why your push is correct and the rest is wrong?

UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells[/invite] now that I know deadline is longer than a day.

[Ankamius]

Fuck you autocorrect

UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells

[Ankamius]

Three reasons in order of most to least relevant:

a. I was on my tablet and doing anything on that fucker is an exercise in frustration
b. I'm lazy
c. It's easier to get a read on you this way

[Ankamius]

You began saying that you wouldn't cry over a Flubber lynch and would support it if you had to, and that your qualm is that it's just an easy lynch

Yes... in a deadline lynch. Any lynch is better than no lynch.
A lynch on a VI/Lurker is still going to be better than no information at all.

VOTE: Oversoul

[Ankamius]

I'm on board for right now, Mattp.

You never actually answered my other question, though, namely why the other pushes were bad.

[Ankamius]

You better be scum after making that statement.

[Ankamius]

Mattp is it connected to your scumread on OS at all or is it a separate thing entirely? I can kinda see scum doing this sort of thing to town (I've super WKed town wagons all the time), but the fact that it's more preemptive than anything is making me really iffy on that.

I'll have to read more context than just that page to see what the overall game state was, but I think it's more likely town if it suddenly started being a spotlight over everything else in that particular moment than anything else. This might be because I get a sense that RC is kind of like me in that he keeps tabs on what's going on and cross-references them to past stuff later on (I've made this type of mistake before, you've seen it. I outright claimed when I noticed a lot of suspicion being put my way out of nowhere even though the lynch was almost guaranteed to be someone else), so I'm not overly convinced by it.

[Ankamius]

I don't know why you unvoted.

Going to be awfully difficult to get back onto this wagon without getting lynched tomorrow.

Cut the empty threats and quit whining.

[Ankamius]

What's confusing about it?

[Ankamius]

What is the reasoning on Lost-scum?

[Ankamius]

Mattp is it connected to your scumread on OS at all or is it a separate thing entirely? I can kinda see scum doing this sort of thing to town (I've super WKed town wagons all the time), but the fact that it's more preemptive than anything is making me really iffy on that.

I'll have to read more context than just that page to see what the overall game state was

[when RC started defending OS]

, but I think it's

[the defending]

more likely town if it

[the OS suspicion]

suddenly started being a spotlight over everything else in that particular moment than anything else. This

[The town 'read']

might be because I get a sense that RC is kind of like me in that he keeps tabs on what's going on and cross-references them to past stuff later on (I've made this type of mistake before, you've seen it. I outright claimed when I noticed a lot of suspicion being put my way out of nowhere even though the lynch was almost guaranteed to be someone else), so I'm not overly convinced by it

[The reasoning for RC maybe being scum]

.

I'm not 100% following what you're saying here.

Regardless, my OS scumread has nothing to do with my read on RC. OS is scum for the reasons I'm stated in my ISO. Like 1/3rd of my ISO is probably directed at OS

Bolded is added. Hope that clears it up a bit.

[Ankamius]

Thanks for answering my question, guys. Much appreciated.

[Ankamius]

OK. How have my posts been scum?

Better yet, will someone actually tell me why lost is being wagoned?

[Ankamius]

If OS started being suspected out of nowhere, then RCs whiteknighting looks townier than if it was on the table for a while. I don't see scum purposely trying to preemptively WK a scumbuddy in that situation or scum WKing a town so fast when suspicion went up, but before it became a serious contender to go through. I can see town seeing the sudden surge on a towntead and speaking out against it much more easily.

[Ankamius]

This is a no-read on replace game for me.

1099 finally gives me a solid read on mattp.

Kinetic: What do you think of Bro/Elyse?

[Ankamius]

OK. How have my posts been scum?

Better yet, will someone actually tell me why lost is being wagoned?

Those seem like two very tangential requests

@Kinetic: There's yet to even be an OS replacement and the deadline is paused, so I don't have much incentive to move my vote at this pt considering OS is my strongest scumread

They're not. The former is very relevant as I'm getting major red flags from this sudden suspicion shift. The latter is something I asked twice before and was completely ignored.

[Ankamius]

1099 finally gives me a solid read on mattp.

I'm studying rn so I can't engage, but what's that read exactly?

I'll answer this and explain why later. I want to get a read on this pseudowagon on me first.

[Ankamius]

I'm one of the worst people on the site when it comes to initially getting invested into games and I'm already on a heavy upswing after replacing in just a couple pages ago. How exactly are you getting

nothing

to talk about?

[Ankamius]

^evilpacman

[Ankamius]

Yeah I'm also getting scumvibes from Ank.

???

[Ankamius]

Quote your reasoning for me.

[Ankamius]

Yes.

[Ankamius]

evilpacman: There's not much of an attempt to get people to see what you're talking about. I found about 2 posts directed towards non-RC people about RC, which is weird for someone who is so sure about his primary scumread and reasonably sure about that slot's partners.

Why have you been so passive in the second half of your ISO?

[Ankamius]

Feel free to go into why, kinetic.

[Ankamius]

Ok, so you're scumreading the very beginning of my time in the game. Everything else is just dust in the wind then?

[Ankamius]

I have no idea what that even means.

[Ankamius]

Vote:Lost

vote: Lost

Maybe one of you two can tell me why we're voting Lost?

[Ankamius]

ok

Point me to a specific post or page to read then.

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: Boonskiies
VOTE: Lostaway

I guess

[Ankamius]

VOTE: pisskop

[Ankamius]

VOTE: pisskop

There is so much OMGUS to this I don't even know how to read it.

So what exactly makes you different from everyone else who has been suspecting me throughout the end of day one and why is this only relevant now?

[Ankamius]

I'm really confused as to what 1238 means then.

[Ankamius]

BROseidon: Show your work, please.

[Ankamius]

Meh

VOTE: BROseidon

The fact that all the suspicion on me basically dropped off today reeks just as badly as how quickly the sentiment was sheeped when it was first brought up.

[Ankamius]

I don't really care about the actual reads.

Kinetic was the one firmly pushing it over everyone else, and half the player list almost just kind of chimed in agreeing passively. Now that Kinetic is dead and no one else is speaking up about it (RC mentioned it in passing but didn't push it at all), suddenly no one is interested in it anymore.

The even funnier part is that the list of people forming this list are the same people that aren't really doing anything and haven't since basically the point that I replaced in.

There's definitely scum intent in there and the fact that it takes me ripping off all my limbs and making a lovely mosaic with all my internal organs to get pretty much anything out of 90% of the player list is doing fuck all to narrow down the possibilities. It helps that except for pisskop, everyone I've been able to get stuff out of had town responses.

[Ankamius]

Mattp and EPM is TvT. RC is probably town too.

Can we just purge the zombie brigade?

[Ankamius]

pisskop:Yours were null. That statement only says you didn't lean towards town after the exchanges

[Ankamius]

EPMs recent points were town; it had the same tone as a when he was engaging with me, and I don't think it would be if he was scum.

[Ankamius]

Like I guess EPM+Mattp could be a thing, but that's a weird strategy for this gamestate.

[Ankamius]

Wait so he had the same tone engaging with you as he did with MattP and that means that, since you expressly declared Matt town, EPM would know you're scum and thus talk to you different?

Okay, thanks for the info ankamius. There's really no other interpretation of that.

um, what?

EPM was under virtually no pressure when he was talking to me and I had never explicitly stated a read on that slot. He was quick to answer my questions and tell me what I wanted to know.
Mattp makes a case on him and states a scumread which is mirrored by a couple other people. EPM is quick to answer questions and try to engage back without any sign of panicking or maneuvering to escape the threat.

Two different gamestates. Very little difference in tone.

[Ankamius]

Titus please make no sense so I can be sure you're town.

[Ankamius]

Boonskiies, glad to see you have reads. Go into all of them for me please.

[Ankamius]

RadiantCowbells: Tone down the ego. It's never protown.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Elyse

[Ankamius]

Yeeeeeeeah

Titus is probably town here

[Ankamius]

No, please, tell me why it took an hour and a half for a second to pass.

[Ankamius]

Oh.

Okay, carry on then.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: evilpacman8

I guess. Everyone in the scum brigade has been avoiding it.

[Ankamius]

Okay, can someone put all the info we know now in one post for me please?

[Ankamius]

Okay, can someone put all the info we know now in one post for me please?

Gist is we know you're either scum or a fruit vendor at this pt based on PoE

[Ankamius]

I'm at least kind of skimming so can we not just do gambits like that? Thanks.

[Ankamius]

uhhhh

RadiantCowbells is probably town
Mattp is in the undecided category

Fucked if I know about the other two non-conftown.

[Ankamius]

I don't really care about the actual reads.

Kinetic was the one firmly pushing it over everyone else, and half the player list almost just kind of chimed in agreeing passively. Now that Kinetic is dead and no one else is speaking up about it (RC mentioned it in passing but didn't push it at all), suddenly no one is interested in it anymore.

The even funnier part is that the list of people forming this list are the same people that aren't really doing anything and haven't since basically the point that I replaced in.

There's definitely scum intent in there and the fact that it takes me ripping off all my limbs and making a lovely mosaic with all my internal organs to get pretty much anything out of 90% of the player list is doing fuck all to narrow down the possibilities. It helps that except for pisskop, everyone I've been able to get stuff out of had town responses.

^Laughably town post from Ankamius which makes me feel pretty confident he's town REGARDLESS of the pisskop crumb.

I suddenly like Mattp for scum a lot more now.

[Ankamius]

Actually, RC, can you go into why you suddenly switched to that stance as well?

[Ankamius]

No, but your reasoning did.

[Ankamius]

No, but I've seen a very similar strategy used by scum early this year (or late last year? Somewhere around there). The only reason I'm hesitant at all is because you showed your work and the last scum didn't.

[Ankamius]

Pointing out the pisskop crumbs on me is null. Both alignments have reason to go that angle. Stahp.

[Ankamius]

Mattp > Flubbernugget > RadiantCowbells > Boonskiies

Priority list for lynches to me.

[Ankamius]

Mattp how long ago have all these games happened? The only complete game I remember playing with you was the recent one where I paid close to no attention after day 2.

I replaced into your slot a bunch of times, but I don't read games I replace into as often as I do.

[Ankamius]

IRC mafia and Forum mafia are completely different.

[Ankamius]

One of my first games in this site I was vig.

It was near mountainous, I had 2 shots and was the only PR.

I shot scum N2.

After the game town complained that I was a shitty PR because they ended up assuming I was a SK after I claimed and lynched me.

I'm going to play this to win, thanks.

Fuck that game, I was in that one.

[Ankamius]

You know what, whatever. I'm not budging on Mattp at all tomorrow if Flubber ends up being town, though.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

[Ankamius]

That was legitimately awful.

[Ankamius]

Vonflare why are you umming?

[Ankamius]

Because that makes his thoughts kind of important.

[Ankamius]

I'm specifically waiting to see if Vonflare's going to do anything ever, but whatever.

VOTE: Mattp

[Ankamius]

yep

[Ankamius]

The best part is how much you flailed when you were wagoned on day one. That's my favorite part.

[Ankamius]

Actually, I lied. The best part is actually when you sheeped Mattp's townread on me when all your other mentions were basically up my ass trying to remove me from the game. I had thought mattp was scum from trying to paint me as town for my actions instead of my predecessor's, but that just overshadowed how awkward your response was.

[Ankamius]

Yeah, I totally did stuff to change the plan to lynch me in lylo when it was made two days ago instead of just trying to change the order.

I'm not very good at scum, but I'm not stupid enough to just passively go along with this.

[Ankamius]

Another funny point: The entire scum team spearheaded your lynch day one, therefore I hopped right off when I replaced in and let you destroy the entire scum team without eliminating you from the game once you were mostly universally townread.

That's what you're suggesting with point 2 for why you're town.

[Ankamius]

Another funny point: The entire scum team spearheaded your lynch day one, therefore I hopped right off when I replaced in and let you destroy the entire scum team without eliminating you from the game once you were mostly universally townread.

That's what you're suggesting with point 2 for why you're town.

Matt's plan.

I'm sure it's just coincidence that you left Vonflare up.

Yeah, it's coincidence that the player who hasn't posted much of anything the past forever is alive right now.

You're not stupid enough to believe that any scum in this type of endgame would leave anyone else alive unless they were sure they'd win the night killed person over regardless.

[Ankamius]

No idea why that first quote is there.

[Ankamius]

Why RC is scum:

1. Macho Townie is a really weird claim; town gunsmiths already have enough false positives (backup gunsmith + JoaT) that another one muddies up the waters more, while it nerfs scum's gunsmiths when there's no known evidence that they have any kind of power role at all.

2. Mattp was town until he pointed out pisskop's crumbs of him copping me night 1 at the beginning of day 2. Suddenly Mattp is scum. Just looking at Mattp's posts throughout the next part of the game until Titus lynch should give a pretty good idea at how awful a lot of these attacks are.

3. The day after Titus lynch, the cop gets brought up again. RC is the only one who tries to discredit it and starts hard-pushing Mattp again at the same time. At this point, it's 100% obvious he has to stop the obvtown on me from going through since he'll have to secure a mislynch on me to win the game.

4. RC's #2 point about how he's town is laughably bad. evilpacman18 and Lostaway were the 5th and 6th votes on the bandwagon, right in the middle of RC's breakdown. What usually happens when someone gives up and just votes themselves? They get lynched. For being anti-town. Remember the #5 point for why I'm scum that RC pointed out? It's the same type of shit here. The fact that it didn't actually go through gave RC a really good opportunity to grab towncred by double bussing his weaker partners. It makes perfect sense when you realize that all three of them were under significant pressure at the time, so the best way to get somewhere in that situation is to try to get as much towncred to one of you as possible.

When you think of it that way, it makes a lot less sense for me to just question EPC to no effect, just kind of hop on passively to both scum lynches near the end, then just not try to force an endgame that I win when the general consensus is that Flubber+Mattp are going to die first and I'm going to be the designated LyLo lynch. Even Mattp, who still believes I'm laughably town and believes that pisskop did cop me night one, is suggesting this route; and I do nothing to try to stop that point of view.

[Ankamius]

Another funny point: The entire scum team spearheaded your lynch day one, therefore I hopped right off when I replaced in and let you destroy the entire scum team without eliminating you from the game once you were mostly universally townread.

That's what you're suggesting with point 2 for why you're town.

No shit you jumped off. Scum were selfdestructing on me like crazy people and there's no way that your team would survive my mislynch in that fashion.

When would you have killed me, exactly? In place of Kinetic who scumread you both and townread me? In place of the claimed JOAT? GS? clears?

No, you couldn't kill me. And this is a town win because of that.

So you're saying I would have killed the person who had independent scumreads on both EPM and me instead of the player who had not only scumreads on both of us but associative tells beyond that?

[Ankamius]

And?

I've seen scum kill the counter-wagon to town once. It caused so much WIFOM that it confused town for quite a while. The only reason town actually won that game is because a massclaim literally fucked them over completely.

In a separate game, I used a weird kill night 1 to manipulate town and they never figured out why that person was killed until postgame.

It's not out of the question at all.

[Ankamius]

and I do nothing to try to stop that point of view.

Yes, it was really towny for you to lurk and play passive and let us carry you to lylo with someone who scumreads me.

can't compete with that, I'm caught scum.

So I'm going to just risk the chance of vonflare being swayed by flipped town suggesting that I be the designated lynch in LyLo standing down.

Scummy material right there. You can't beat that scum plan.

[Ankamius]

You switched to EPM because you needed the towncred of a scum lynch, which would then translate to a free town lynch in me. In fact, if Pisskop copping me wasn't a thing, I wouldn't be remotely surprised if you had done exactly that. The Kinetic kill has the same purpose that you're using to try to pin me as scum here. It was a set-up to try to lynch me day three.

Hint: This relates to you immediately going after Mattp day 3, AFTER he posted the pisskop crumbs.

[Ankamius]

You think you'd have enough towncred from just bussing Lostaway? After all you and Lostaway were nearly lynched and EPM had a solid wagon on him at some point too? It's kind of important to get all the towncred you can in that position and having a plan beyond that is a very good idea when you're going to go as a solo scum for the rest of the game.

[Ankamius]

That's a slip? Lmao.

[Ankamius]

You think you'd have enough towncred from just bussing Lostaway? After all you and Lostaway were nearly lynched and EPM had a solid wagon on him at some point too? It's kind of important to get all the towncred you can in that position and having a plan beyond that is a very good idea when you're going to go as a solo scum for the rest of the game.

Yeah, my plan would be to not go the game as a solo scum and instead to push a lynch on you, whether or not it goes down.

Scum me doesn't need to lynch you.

Town me does.

So which is it?

If you're not referring back to this, then you need to learn how to context.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

oops

[Ankamius]

1. I was being antagonistic towards you for your lack of activity thr last couple day phases. This negative impression gibves RC an advantage in LyLo.
2. You were far less into the loop about the game. It would be much easier for one to forge a case for a player that is less likely to spot the contradictions.
3. Elyse has seen my townplay multiple times, including me at my most effective. Anyone trying to cross-reference my experience with both you and her would not risk Elyse recognizing my townplay in the end of the game, since I caught her in LyLo in the past.

[Ankamius]

I'm specifically waiting to see if Vonflare's going to do anything ever, but whatever.

VOTE: Mattp

Just that one. I thought I had more than that, but I guess not.

[Ankamius]

You needed Vonflare more invested in the game because you didn't want him just speedvoting you out of the gate today.

This is very fascinating when your argument for why I left vonflare alive is because he was scumreading you and townreading me. You think I'd be trying to get him to read up in the game and form updated reads instead of trying to get him stuck in this mindset?

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p7022959]2. You were far less into the loop about the game. It would be much easier for one to forge a case for a player that is less likely to spot the contradictions.

Why would I need to forge a case?

This entire game says scum!Jake, up to and including his spat with OS leading to his replace out, and then the rest of it.[/quote]

This is a scum response. He's trying to discredit my statement instead of either trying to get me to substantiate my claim or use it to try to prove I'm scum.

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p7022959]Elyse has seen my townplay multiple times, including me at my most effective. Anyone trying to cross-reference my experience with both you and her would not risk Elyse recognizing my townplay in the end of the game, since I caught her in LyLo in the past.[/quote]

Same is true for me, since I've played like 5 consecutive games with her.

Who was she townreading the entire game again?[/quote]

I'm pretty sure Elyse wasn't scumreading this slot for anything I did; the vast majority of the suspicion was my predecessor, if not all of it.

Regardless, at this point it's just null. Point #2 was the primary one I was going for in the first place.

[Ankamius]

@Mod: Can you fix that quote for me please?

[Ankamius]

Notice that he didn't disagree with anything I said, he just basically said "I'm only scum because Jake was scum!"

The rest is pure nonsense.

Deflect harder, thanks.

[Ankamius]

Deflect harder, thanks.

[Ankamius]

Look at what RC has been doing today and it should be kind of obvious he's scum. His latest attack was trying to pass off half my posts as if they didn't exist, for fuck's sake.

[Ankamius]

2) Buzzwords flying left right and centre. Ank's point was that he was only being scumread for Jake!actions, and it was a horrible point that didn't make him less scum at all. It was not "deflected" at all.

This is really fucking hilarious. The initial point in this train was never meant to be much since it was basically a subjective thing that might have had something to do with Elyse dying last night. Your response basically made the point dead null, since around the point of the game where we were starting to make lynch lists, Elyse posted this, which doesn't have my name anywhere on it.

This indicates that the scumread went down at minimum to null since I replaced in.

Therefore, your point that Elyse townreading you because she knows your play is

dead null

, because it happened on both sides.

So you trying to brute force this as one of my primary points when I've both indicated the opposite and made many other arguments is fucking deflecting. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

3) Yeah, the posts 'existed'. doesn't make them any less feeble and dumb.

Just proving my point further.

If my MattP push was weird, what was the scum motivation behind it?

Huh, I wonder? (Point#2)

Why would I stick my neck out trying to get a lynch done when I could just wait for attrition to push me into a situation where the lynch would be between the two of us?

Because you needed a lynch on me and your chances of ever getting it with Mattp being alive was basically nil.

Boonskiies tried to lynch me for the Matt push and I stuck to my guns because that's who I thought was scum. Where does Ank put anything on the line pushing anything, ever?

Same point above applies. It's the best move to keep trying to push for Mattp's death because backing down means you can't force that lynch through later without raising a lot of eyebrows at the same time.

And no, putting things on the line to push things is a null trait. It doesn't mean anything whether I did so or not; me getting disengaged is null as well.

Hell, where does Ank ever have a clear read on anyone besides just jumping on whatever lynch the town is on?

That might have something to do with me trying to pressure people into telling me why they're suspecting my posts (hint: that's how I scumhunt when applicable), and no one ever bothering to tell me. It's kind of difficult to get strong reads when my method of getting them isn't working.

[Ankamius]

Vonflare: Another thing you should inspect is this to this. It's RC's first explanation for the Mattp scumread back on day 3 and his most recent post about the same subject.

[Ankamius]

2. Mattp was town until he pointed out pisskop's crumbs of him copping me night 1 at the beginning of day 2. Suddenly Mattp is scum. Just looking at Mattp's posts throughout the next part of the game until Titus lynch should give a pretty good idea at how awful a lot of these attacks are.

3. The day after Titus lynch, the cop gets brought up again. RC is the only one who tries to discredit it and starts hard-pushing Mattp again at the same time. At this point, it's 100% obvious he has to stop the obvtown on me from going through since he'll have to secure a mislynch on me to win the game.

You even were on the right track with #3, Vonflare.

>:/

[Ankamius]

I kind of saw this coming once I saw Mattp flip town anyway. I never expected to not be lynched anyway since I wasn't really around for half the game.

[Ankamius]

I guess. My strategy was more trying to prove RC was scum by actions surrounding it, which would basically prove the cop happened.

The discrediting on me in LyLo worked though, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[Ankamius]

Oh Mattp, I don't understand how you can read me so easily.

[Ankamius]

I've made it a personal rule to do a full reset if the night 1 kill doesn't make any sense to me.

Just the experience of abusing that in my favor as scum once was enough. I don't need nor want to experience that as town too.