Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[pieguyn]

if we arnt lynching quil its RBD or or GB. im entirely agnostic when it comes to these 3

Why do you think GB could be scum?
Why not lynch pie?

do you have a scum read on me?

[Tammy]

Vote: Quilford

Good morning.

I don't have a particularly strong conviction that Quilford is scum, I think that I'm just mostly bothered by his play because it's annoying.

Muffin, why do you need Nati around to do things?

quil why is bbmolla in the mid-tier?

how many votes are on Quil

looks like maybe 3. I was concerned he put himself at L-1.

Sooooooooo you're voting quilford, but you don't have really any particularly strong convictions that he's scum. Why are you voting him then? And why are you not trying to figure out his alignment? You say you're waiting on his reads and reasons, but why are you content to sit on your laurels waiting for him to do something? Empire and I have been discussing his meta, talking about what we've found...what games we're reading to try to figure quilford out. YOU haven't engaged in any of that at all. Not one peep. You say that you've been trying to engage us, but you haven't. And here was a perfect opportunity to, that you didn't take.

So your turn. Do something. Show me you're actually trying to figure out the game because you don't get to sit up in your condescending chair and claim we should be doing more while ignoring every thing we have been doing, not doing a damn thing yourself, and sitting around and waiting.

And why did you care that he put himself at l-1? Like really you're voting him. If you really did care that he didn't get lynched unexpectedly, where's your unvote? Cuz this just looks like phone-it-in posting to look like your concerned about the game though not really actually trying to figure it out.

[Gold Saucer]

Vote: Quilford

Good morning.

I don't have a particularly strong conviction that Quilford is scum, I think that I'm just mostly bothered by his play because it's annoying.

Muffin, why do you need Nati around to do things?

quil why is bbmolla in the mid-tier?

how many votes are on Quil

looks like maybe 3. I was concerned he put himself at L-1.

Sooooooooo you're voting quilford, but you don't have really any particularly strong convictions that he's scum. Why are you voting him then? And why are you not trying to figure out his alignment? You say you're waiting on his reads and reasons, but why are you content to sit on your laurels waiting for him to do something? Empire and I have been discussing his meta, talking about what we've found...what games we're reading to try to figure quilford out. YOU haven't engaged in any of that at all. Not one peep. You say that you've been trying to engage us, but you haven't. And here was a perfect opportunity to, that you didn't take.

So your turn. Do something. Show me you're actually trying to figure out the game because you don't get to sit up in your condescending chair and claim we should be doing more while ignoring every thing we have been doing, not doing a damn thing yourself, and sitting around and waiting.

And why did you care that he put himself at l-1? Like really you're voting him. If you really did care that he didn't get lynched unexpectedly, where's your unvote? Cuz this just looks like phone-it-in posting to look like your concerned about the game though not really actually trying to figure it out.

welp

[Gold Saucer]

I'll be going through some stuff on and off today as I have a busy day, but I plan to get to everything I missed when I get home from girls' night, and that will be a bonus tipsy me so, yay!

But there were a couple things that occurred to me while swimming this morning, so I'll get to them as I have minutes.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Before I start catching up here: has Nati been caught up in this game? I'd kinda really like to see where she's at now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Something that just occured to me while reading the latest Gold Saucer vs. sangres stuff: so we know that trees that get mislynched get to stick around forever basically unless they get doused/ignited (a process that takes at least two day phases to do)...my question is how do you guys expect this to inform the scum strategy in this game? I have some theories about it but I'd like to see what all of you think first.

As a hint for what I think: we might be approaching this game the wrong way.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

EBWOP: that should say "two night phases"

[pieguyn]

tried reading again. Nacho, why do you need GS to be "more invested" in the game than they currently are? do you think they might be scum or do you just want to hear their thoughts on the game? if it's the latter, why is that apparently necessary enough to keep poking at them (despite a lack of time due to RL coming from one head) over it?

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to get out of doing this.

[pieguyn]

Something that just occured to me while reading the latest Gold Saucer vs. sangres stuff: so we know that trees that get mislynched get to stick around forever basically unless they get doused/ignited (a process that takes at least two day phases to do)...my question is how do you guys expect this to inform the scum strategy in this game? I have some theories about it but I'd like to see what all of you think first.

As a hint for what I think: we might be approaching this game the wrong way.

in terms of mislynching players, if I was scum I probably wouldn't give a shit. a mislynch is a mislynch. if they couldn't get me lynched before, I'd assume they couldn't get me lynched after getting lynched themselves, either.

in terms of nightkills, I would *hopefully* aim to douse as many people as possible and then ignite them all on the last night (2 on N3, 3 on N4)

I'm gonna say right now that I'm against any form of "lynch a strong player so they can be around after getting lynched". if you get caught up in stuff like that, you're playing the wrong game.

[Phenenas]

Vote Count 2.1

Quilford - 3 (sangres, BBmolla, Quilford) L-2
sangres - 1 (Gold Saucer) L-4
Rancid Broderick Drake - 1 (Soft-spoken) L-4

Not Voting: Gentlemen Bastards, pieguyn, Rancid Broderick Drake

With 8 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch. Deadline is July 12th, 7 PM CST. This is (expired on 2015-07-12 19:59:21) from now.

[Gold Saucer]

If I had a clue, I would say so.

You're voting us. You're obviously either clueless or scum. You're waving bork's towniness around like it's a flag that obviates you doing enough to be readable on your own. And voting us while I've been every bit as obvtown this time. You've never taken a stand on that read, just cast doubt on me from the start.

I think you're town. But neither Nacho nor I have you in our tippy-top townreads and for me it's mostly your lack of engagement, along with a paranoia about bork that I think is likely baseless.

I know you're busy, but it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us.

I would like you to substantiate this. When have I not been doing enough on my own? Since day start?

Mostly what I want you to substantiate is this "it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us." Because from where I'm sitting you haven't tried not once. I looked at your posts since day start, and you didn't address us at all. You didn't engage with Bork when he was here and posting, so how is it ridiculous because to me this looks like word vomit designed to brow beat me into a town read on you. You've been pulling the scum or dumb crap since day one and it's nothing more than you going oh watch out if you don't town read me I'm going to scum read you.

If you and Nacho spoke about the game and it surprised you to find that we weren't your top town read, how come there wasn't a peep from you guys until people started worrying about us? Because there's been absolutely no indication that you're worried about us until Nacho asked Bork what he's done that's so town. And hey, maybe you don't intend to mislynch us today because yeah that probably wouldn't be good play, but laying the groundwork for it? I can totally buy that.

And speaking of, we are not going to go through our iso and tell you why we're town and what we've done so town. I swear you guys are not reading our posts. I want to see you guys come to a read organically. Talk to us. Tell us what you have a problem with. Do your read thing because that's what will help me determine your alignment not threats of being scumread or nebulous insults about my cluelessness. In final fantasy x when Nati/I were paranoid of you, you expressed the concern that I was reading you incorrectly much more naturally, here it feels forced like you're going through the motions of it to get me to back off.

And also while we're at it, why are you just sitting around waiting for Nati to show up? You've played plenty of games with muffin, so why aren't you trying to read him either?

[Gold Saucer]

And honestly, I don't know whether that belief is because I haven't read the game closely enough or you guys have been slipping into the background a bit. Don't care. I don't have as good of a grasp as I should on your perception of the game state, and the way I'm going to do that is by prodding.

Then do useful prodding not stupid shit like ask bork why you're supposed to see him As town that doesn't give you an accurate view of Our view of the game state that gives you a view of what we see ourselves as when you should be doing the readon your own

[Soft-spoken]

honestly im overwhelmed by all the content

thats both good and bad... seems like id prefer a middleground... this game goes between being sluggish and being hyperactive.


for the moment im gunna block out most of the new content and do my own form of meta digging.

[Gold Saucer]

And hey I get regfan being somewhat paranoid, thigh he really shouldn't be, but he doesn't have experience with Bork so needing me to post to feel better about our slot makes sense. It shouldn't be coming from you, not in the way it has.

What do you mean, in the way it has?

I'm going to flip the table if you don't start reading my posts. I think I've made it clear in what might miss you with this situation is.

Ffery says that you guys talked over and discuss REITs. If that were the case and you were surprised that we were in your top town read then if there was any concern at all how come that wasn't put in the thread. It would says that you guys talked over and discuss Reads. If that were the case and you were surprised that we were in your top town read then if there was any concern at all how come that wasn't put in the thread.

It would make more sense if it was an actual concern and if you wanted to shore up that read that you started day with something along that vein or tried to engage us on anything. But you didn't. You waited until three other people expressed concern to jump that line is suspicious.

[Gold Saucer]

On phone while walking so I'm not going to quote, but you didn't call me scum in hard boiled, you assessed the game state and had your town reads as ones you had to have and needed to review me and cephrir. You ignored the reasons why both of us were town as well as ignoring a pretty strong townslip by me. The closest you really came to calling me scum was saying that my response to you needing to feel better about me wasn't passionate enough. Then you claimed you were tricking me into obvtowning.

You're doing the same thing here. You are assessing the game state for your reads and concerns. You're seeing what you can get away with.

[sangres]

If I had a clue, I would say so.

You're voting us. You're obviously either clueless or scum. You're waving bork's towniness around like it's a flag that obviates you doing enough to be readable on your own. And voting us while I've been every bit as obvtown this time. You've never taken a stand on that read, just cast doubt on me from the start.

I think you're town. But neither Nacho nor I have you in our tippy-top townreads and for me it's mostly your lack of engagement, along with a paranoia about bork that I think is likely baseless.

I know you're busy, but it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us.

I would like you to substantiate this. When have I not been doing enough on my own? Since day start?

Mostly what I want you to substantiate is this "it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us." Because from where I'm sitting you haven't tried not once. I looked at your posts since day start, and you didn't address us at all. You didn't engage with Bork when he was here and posting, so how is it ridiculous because to me this looks like word vomit designed to brow beat me into a town read on you. You've been pulling the scum or dumb crap since day one and it's nothing more than you going oh watch out if you don't town read me I'm going to scum read you.

If you and Nacho spoke about the game and it surprised you to find that we weren't your top town read, how come there wasn't a peep from you guys until people started worrying about us? Because there's been absolutely no indication that you're worried about us until Nacho asked Bork what he's done that's so town. And hey, maybe you don't intend to mislynch us today because yeah that probably wouldn't be good play, but laying the groundwork for it? I can totally buy that.

And speaking of, we are not going to go through our iso and tell you why we're town and what we've done so town. I swear you guys are not reading our posts. I want to see you guys come to a read organically. Talk to us. Tell us what you have a problem with. Do your read thing because that's what will help me determine your alignment not threats of being scumread or nebulous insults about my cluelessness. In final fantasy x when Nati/I were paranoid of you, you expressed the concern that I was reading you incorrectly much more naturally, here it feels forced like you're going through the motions of it to get me to back off.

And also while we're at it, why are you just sitting around waiting for Nati to show up? You've played plenty of games with muffin, so why aren't you trying to read him either?

I'm in a ton of pain and a terrible mood. probably related.

I can't answer this the way I want to answer it right now, so this is acknowledgement that I see it and will get to it later. maybe tonight. I don't want to inflict my current mood on the game again.

From what I've gathered from your other posts today you're addressing Nacho but this one is mine.

[Gold Saucer]

I'm not going to be able to get to this before I leave tomm morning. I'll be back Sunday night.

-b

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I too am not going to get to this tonight, I'm going out drinking tonight; Got tomorrow off though.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Been busy. Reading shit tomorrow. Got the weekend off so yay.

-Nati

[BBmolla]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[sangres]

If I had a clue, I would say so.

You're voting us. You're obviously either clueless or scum. You're waving bork's towniness around like it's a flag that obviates you doing enough to be readable on your own. And voting us while I've been every bit as obvtown this time. You've never taken a stand on that read, just cast doubt on me from the start.

I think you're town. But neither Nacho nor I have you in our tippy-top townreads and for me it's mostly your lack of engagement, along with a paranoia about bork that I think is likely baseless.

I know you're busy, but it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us.

I would like you to substantiate this. When have I not been doing enough on my own? Since day start?

Yeah I was thinking about since day start. Didn't express myself very well. What struck me as absurd was you going from zero to full blown scum-read because Nacho basically asked you to step it up.

As background, we talked about our mutual feeling that you hadn't really made a major mark on the game on day 1 during night 1, and were hoping to see more from you today. A couple times, in our drive-by texts to each other, I asked Nacho if he thought I should poke you, and he thought no - that it would be a more productive engagement to just ask you what you're thinking. So, I held off, kinda expecting that he'd ask you questions if you didn't just spontaneously get more active.

Mostly what I want you to substantiate is this "it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us." Because from where I'm sitting you haven't tried not once. I looked at your posts since day start, and you didn't address us at all. You didn't engage with Bork when he was here and posting, so how is it ridiculous because to me this looks like word vomit designed to brow beat me into a town read on you. You've been pulling the scum or dumb crap since day one and it's nothing more than you going oh watch out if you don't town read me I'm going to scum read you.

Where did I pull scum or dumb on day 1?

I do feel like you should have been able to read me, and I was annoyed that you said (more than once) that you didn't get the townreads on me because I hadn't done anything I would only do as town. It annoyed me. I felt like you were undermining other players' reads on me and not making any obvious effort to refine your own read.

Bork and I didn't really cross paths during day 2 until two nights ago or whenever it was.

I'm not going to substantiate that statement because it's a bad statement - more about what's been going through my mind - WHEN is too long? WHEN do we stop waiting - than what had happened in the game thread. I apologize for saying it.

If you and Nacho spoke about the game and it surprised you to find that we weren't your top town read, how come there wasn't a peep from you guys until people started worrying about us? Because there's been absolutely no indication that you're worried about us until Nacho asked Bork what he's done that's so town. And hey, maybe you don't intend to mislynch us today because yeah that probably wouldn't be good play, but laying the groundwork for it? I can totally buy that.

We know you've been busy. You're not a scumread. I really wanted to put the niggles to bed and move on, but was letting Nacho handle the pace. I have some more to say about my overall play around you. It will come at the end.

And speaking of, we are not going to go through our iso and tell you why we're town and what we've done so town. I swear you guys are not reading our posts. I want to see you guys come to a read organically. Talk to us. Tell us what you have a problem with. Do your read thing because that's what will help me determine your alignment not threats of being scumread or nebulous insults about my cluelessness. In final fantasy x when Nati/I were paranoid of you, you expressed the concern that I was reading you incorrectly much more naturally, here it feels forced like you're going through the motions of it to get me to back off.

I don't get what you mean about threats. Nacho threatened to spite-vote you, not vote you because he was scumreading you.

I think my last paragraph, if I write what I mean, will explain some of the rest.

And also while we're at it, why are you just sitting around waiting for Nati to show up? You've played plenty of games with muffin, so why aren't you trying to read him either?

I basically get two kinds of zmuffin reads - A quick, early "Oh hell yes and thank Tlaloc, he's town!" and "hellifino" - which is hell to resolve and too often resolves in a misread. I've never gotten the former when he was scum, except for the first game I played with him when he came back from a hiatus in 2013. I don't often get the latter when he's town, but it does happen.

Nati is a hell of a lot easier for me to read.

But, muffin is also pretty absent lately, so I don't really feel like I can do a lot there atm either.

So, to what I was going to add here. I've been uncomfortable playing with you (and Ceph) ever since early days of the smite game. It's not at all your fault and it's something I have to work through, and I feel like this game is a pretty decent move in that direction whether you read us correctly or not - I'm more concerned that I can do what I need to do in order to read you. Bork mentioned the vesperia game. I don't feel like my willingness to engage and expectations for how it will work out when/if I do are at that level of godawfulness, and I feel like this game marks an improvement in my own attitude, but it's a long, unpleasant slog and as the game has progressed - especially in the last 2-3 days - I've recognized that it's not just that I'm not back to a point of feeling "let's get the sorting over and proceed to gamewrecking", it's that I don't think that kind of cooperation is even possible this time. And that's probably ok. I'm looking for a new equilibrium, not a return to an old normal. I need to keep that in mind and not get stressed.

Part of me really does want to call you names for misreading us this time, when I feel like I have been as transparent as I can be in a hydra situation where our gears aren't meshing all that well for some reason. But, the seeds of the misread are probably right there.

All in all, I'm feeling pretty discouraged. The players I feel most like I need to sort aren't doing much. And I feel like I finally pushed my read on you guys to rock-solid, but can't really be happy about it because of the cost involved.

And I'm enjoying (not!) a certain sense of deja vu about the situation. So many times, in playing short-deadline games, I wound up using antagonism as a means to develop a difficult or ambiguous read quickly. And so many times, I wound up with a townread on the player at the expense of (usually temporarily) cratering their read of me and cooperation with me. Because that's what happened here. I think this was a town reaction to Nacho on both your parts and I'm done worrying about you guys.

So yeah, discouraged. If shit starts to happen this weekend I'll get it in gear. If not, then I'll try to pick back up on Monday, hopefully with less attitude and more brain cells. On top of everything else going on this month, I'm on a bunch of different medications for nerve pain. Right now some are being phased out and others are being ramped up and I feel like my system's a toxic waste dump.

[Gold Saucer]

UNVOTE:

Thanks ffery. I'm in a shitty mood, so I'll probably not respond to this until tomorrow or Sunday.

[pieguyn]

this is ridiculous

I think I have strong reason to town read everyone besides Quil or maybe RBD if I squint really hard. {BBM, GS} is my "absolutely not touching this ever" pile. sangres is almost there but I still have some paranoia as to Nacho's recent play, in particular why he would handle the Tammy read that way. I think he'd know doing what he did here wouldn't have helped anything even if he wasn't necessarily scum reading her.

I probably won't *actually* have any more time to reread until sometime tomorrow.

[sangres]

pieguy, in 1349 you laid out reasons why Quil's play doesn't make a lot of sense from scum. In 1397 you still seem to have him scum by PoE.

This mirrors my feelings about Quil pretty well - if I didn't have too many decently strong townreads I'd be looking elsewhere.

What's your GB read? I looked through your day 2 iso and you haven't had much to say about them lately.

[Phenenas]

Quilford has been prodded.