[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[Xdaamno]

Bit wacky, but in theory it should work:

Family Ties

2 Scum
5 Pairs of Siblings (Can't talk at night?)
1 Townie

Roles not revealed upon death, siblings die in the same lynch scene as their partner.

EDIT: Prehaps the townie should be a cop/doc?

[Kelly Chen]

If the whole town is sibling there's no incentive to not claim sibling. Mafia would rather kill a sibling than the townie I guess, although the townie is essentially confirmed and won't be lynched.

As soon as one scum is lynched the scum are out of it, since they would have no choice but to claim their actual partner as sibling. (If he hadn't for some reason, you still have one guy out there who has nothing to claim.)

That last thing is a notable problem I think, but in any case the setup generally seems highly tilted towards town.

EDIT: when I wrote this I didn't consider lack of role reveal. I'll do that later. I'm not sure it makes a big difference though...

[Xdaamno]

I already recongized those points, but looking back they could be more prominent than I thought; IIRC I thought there was a way scum could weasel out of it, but I forgot what it was >.>

Prehaps 1 normal scum and a scum sibling pair might work... (EDIT: The whole setup would have to be adjusted, obviously).

[discordian algorithm]

nominate: dark knight

Don't use alts to create the impression of support, please.

(yes, I know you're announced in the AAA thread, but this is not a good habit to get into)

I withdrew the nomination to avoid drama, but I don't know what you are talking about. I didn't like Dark Knight that much anyway.

[somestrangeflea]

Everest

20 Townies
2 Mafia

Because Search tells me that there hasn't been a large Mountainous game...

And Numbers, Part 1 tells me that Town has a 50.71% chance of winning.

[Mr Stoofer]

Open 2 was a large mountainous game.

[Kelly Chen]

Even in a mountainous setup you don't usually aim for a 50/50 split given random moves. Especially in a larger game where the town has more time to discuss and gradually gain information.

For example, Norinel ran a mountainous game with 21 players and 4 scum, which comes out to about 80% for scum and about a 9-day game on average. I think 80% might be a bit high, but not by much.

[somestrangeflea]

Yeah, I figured 2 mafia was far too few for a 22 player game, but I don't have the guts to argue with numbers.

[Mr. Flay]

The other problem with Large Mountainous is it gets

tedious

. With only one group able to kill (besides lynches), that game will take a

minimum

of 9 Day/Night cycles for scum to reach endgame. That's the better part of a year, around here...

[Adel]

Body Snatchers Mafia

edit: rough draft

Open Setup, Closed Reveal

3 Goons
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Back-up Cop (becomes the Cop if the Cop dies)
6 Townies

Night Start

[Thesp]

Body Snatchers Mafia

Open Setup, Closed Reveal

3 Goons
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Back-up Cop (becomes the Cop if the Cop dies)
6 Townies

Night Start

Cop claim D1 is breaking, I think,

especially

with the Back-up Cop. Even on a counterclaim, ideal play is no-lynch D1, and the mafia have to guess at whether or not they've killed the doctor. Even on competing cop claims D1, if the doc guesses wrong, the Back-up Cop claims next to repeat the process. If they succeed in killing correctly both times, you've got a game with 1 Doc, 5 Townies, 1 Mafia,

and

extra information.

Unless you can show me how I'm wrong here. Even with Nightstart, which

might

tilt things towards the mafia, it's just not very good. (And even then, you're pinning the setup's balance to a nightkill whim, which is always a bit uncomfortable.)

[Adel]

I thought the Closed Reveal would place into serious question any claim of role or investigation.

Would a Godfather balance it out? Or would it still be too unbalanced?

My idea was that everyone

knows

that doc protecting cop breaks, but no townie will ever know if a claimed cop or doc is really a cop or doc even if they are dead.

[Thesp]

I thought the Closed Reveal would place into serious question any claim of role or investigation.

Would a Godfather balance it out? Or would it still be too unbalanced?

My idea was that everyone

knows

that doc protecting cop breaks, but no townie will ever know if a claimed cop or doc is really a cop or doc even if they are dead.

Yes, but you alleviate that possibilty by claiming Cop-only on D1 unprovoked. It's

possible

that the mafia killed the cop on D1, and whomever is claiming is lying, but highly unlikely, especially since the N0 kill is just as random (which means there's only a 1/3 shot the random N0 nightkill hit anyone, and for a small chunk of that, the doc might protect). If you've got your heart set on no-reveal, you're probably looking for a C9-type setup where there might or might not be certain roles in the game.

[Adel]

I really appreciate the feedback.

this is what I'm trying to accomplish with an Open Setup and Closed reveal: a setup that would be totally broken if it were a normal open reveal.

This one may be better:

Body Snatchers Mafia

Revision 1

Open Setup, Closed Reveal

1 Godfather
2 Goons
1 Cop
1 Insane Cop (random investigation results, if the same person is investigated twice the Insane Cop will get the same result)
1 Doc
6 Townies

Night Start

[Albert B. Rampage]

Closed reveal means we don't get to see the roles only, or the alignment too ?

[Adel]

Closed reveal means we don't get to see the roles only, or the alignment too ?

you get to see neither. Just that the player is dead.

[Albert B. Rampage]

There's no point in having a cop in that case. Unbalanced in favor of scum, imo.

[Adel]

There's no point in having a cop in that case. Unbalanced in favor of scum, imo.

How would you balance it?

[Albert B. Rampage]

The whole setup is broken, the cop is useless, his investigations are as good as your guess or mine. Add a godfather in there, and you will never see the light of day. The only hope for a correct investigation would be for both cops to have an innocent, both cops to get a guilty, etc.

I would have a naive/paranoid cop and a real cop, with no godfathers. The insane one would always get the same result every night, while the real one would get the correct one every night. Day start.

But this is getting really complicated, why not just put a roleblocker instead of a doctor ?

[Thesp]

1 Insane Cop (random investigation results, if the same person is investigated twice the Insane Cop will get the same result)

For the record, any role with a

random outcome

immediately qualifies the game that said role is in as a non-Open Game.[/list mod]

Why not make this cop Naive? Also, why bother including the Doctor?

[Thok]

Since the current versions have ended, I'll nominate putting another C9+2 and another Friends and Enemies into the Open Queue.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Second F&E ^

[Guardian]

Second both.

[Adel]

Thesp: Thanks for the questions, and for the list mod 411.

Body Snatchers Mafia

Proposed Final Revision

Open Setup, Closed Reveal

3 Goons (Should 1 be a Godfather?)
1 Cop
1 Paranoid Cop
7 Townies

Night Start

I think I really like this one.

[Zindaras]

2-2-lynch Mafia

(yes, horrible name)
1 SK
1 Jester
1 Lyncher (target is townie)
1 Survivor
8 Townies

The catch here is that at all points in the game, it is only 2 to lynch. Which makes the job for the Lyncher and Jester a lot easier. To counteract this, the town will elect a Mayor (and elect a new one if the first dies). The Mayor can veto one lynch per day (but not his own). If the Mayor vetoes the lynch of the Jester or the Lynchee, the Jester/Lyncher loses and leaves the game.

The other problem with the setup is that there are many sides who can win together. In fact, only the SK has a win condition which flies straight into that of any other group. The amount of possible winners should probably be limited to two or three (groups).