Mini 1697 - a Re-balanced Game of Mafia - GAME OVER

[Ankamius]

Yeah, that slot is scum. I'm not switching my vote.

[Ankamius]

That entire entrance screams self-conservative.

[RadiantCowbells]

Anyone who hammers Thesp right now is getting instalynched, just so you know.

He's at L-1, you have been warned.

[Not_Mafia]

Did you know we already had this discussion?

The fact that you know about the Thesp thing but haven't realized I already scumread him for it until I got an adequate explanation suggests you're reading scum QT talking points and not the game itself.

Or it suggests RQS is almost objectively bad and I don't understand why someone who's been on the site for 11 years is doing ti and I've only read 2 pages so far

[RadiantCowbells]

Absolutely, it's objectively bad and it was a huge waste of time and it caused me to scumread him and entirely derailed my early game with associative tells that didn't exist between him and Firebringer.

Why is he scum for it though, considering he does it all the time?

[Thesp]

Hello everyone!

VOTE: Thesp

How much of the game had you read when you posted this? Had you received your role PM yet?

I don't have much of a desire to re-litigate my questions, so I'll try to keep this brief. I like to take a long view of them. It helped me get context for a lot of players, even if there wasn't necessarily a "scum slip", and it's useful for later re-reads and future game data points.

---

P.S. If I swotch I have a preference for Dave over All Alone. I agree with RC's point about Dave's list about Duppin probably being Cop but still scumreading Dom.

I prefer All Alone over davesaz, but with Not_Mafia's entrance I'm pretty close to the point where I'm happy to lynch any of them.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

My Condorcet list right now looks like this:
1. All Alone
2. Not_Mafia
3. davesaz
I will shamelessly move my vote amongst them to secure a lynch, with preference being given as above.

[ActionDan]

Official Vote Count

Thesp

(4): All Alone, davesaz, TheDominator37, Not_Mafia

Not_Mafia

(4): pistachi0n, Ankamius, Alchemist21, Thesp

davesaz

(2): RadiantCowbells, duppin

Not Voting

(1): Netherspite

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-12 14:10:00)

[ActionDan]

prodding Netherspite

in fact extending deadline by one hour to encompass prod range time

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh, it wasn't L-1. Got the votes kinda mixed up with the replace.

[Not_Mafia]

Absolutely, it's objectively bad and it was a huge waste of time and it caused me to scumread him and entirely derailed my early game with associative tells that didn't exist between him and Firebringer.

Why is he scum for it though, considering he does it all the time?

I've never played with thesp before or seen him outside of discussion forums.

Hello everyone!

VOTE: Thesp

How much of the game had you read when you posted this? Had you received your role PM yet?

I had read my role pm, I read your vote count in 1031

Alchemist's attack on RC due to her scumread on thesp sucks, thesp had done literally nothing to contribute at that point and Alchemist trying to paint RC's RQS commentary as some sort of blatant misrepping is plainly false.

[Netherspite]

I'm not going to vote

All Alone

. I townread him.

davesaz

's readslist makes no sense and looks forced (like he tried to provide some content without really having any).
I don't like

Not_Mafia

's entrance.

I'm tentative between

davesaz

and

Not_Mafia

slots.

[Not_Mafia]

I'm town-reading Thesp for the questions he asked. It gave us a lot of information, not because of the answers themselves, but because of what people thought of the questions and how people responded to other people's answers to the questions. It started discussion, that's a good thing.

Don't like this, it's accurately saying the post was only useful because someone called out its uselessness, but then he credits thesp for it

I'm still reading. bite me.

Also radiant, please don't piss me off by getting uppity because i finally answered that. You are REALLY close to doing so. I was working my way through the game. I hadn't read a single post beyond seeing the RVS on me at the top of page 2 to start the game until 5 minutes ago.

Get off my ass.

VOTE: thesp

This sequence of posts make no sense and Quaroth's Radiant vote falls in the butter zone

[Thesp]

I've never played with thesp before or seen him outside of discussion forums.

This is technically true, though if you'd read Newbie 1498 when you replaced into it, you would have seen me as a player in a game you played in.

[Not_Mafia]

I remember I did read that game before replacing in, yet I have no recollection of you in it, I guess I just skipped your posts because you were already flipped or something

[TheDominator37]

VOTE: mafia

L-1

[Not_Mafia]

But I'm Not_Mafia

[RadiantCowbells]

Hey hey NM

knock knock

[pistachi0n]

I'm going to go through the isos of Thesp and davesaz to see if I've missed anything, maybe more if there's time before the lynch/end of day.

Spoiler: Thesp

Starts off with the questions, which has already been much debated. I thought it was towny at first but now I know he does it every time. In his next post, he calls one of my remarks interesting, but doesn't elaborate on why it's interesting--I think that's a null tell, I can understand why people think it's scummy but he probably wanted to see what I'd say first.

In 102 he tells Sword Master and PMysterious to post more, then he argues with RadiantCowbells. But the interesting thing about that post is he says he'll either put a vote on a lurker or someone in some other parameter he'll mention later. But we never got to find out the other category...I remember being curious when I read that post, and then I forgot about it until now.

Then he continues to argue with RadiantCowbells, I agree with his interpretation of events in that particular interaction. Finally he casts his first vote in 133, a post or perish vote on Sword Master. I don't object to that, he had made one really stupid post and needed some pressure. In 139 he explains why he doesn't want to lynch RC. His reasoning was that RC has been genuine and contributed to the game even though they disagree and on Day 1 he'd rather bring more people into the conversation.

In 181 he hifives Nethersprite for moving his vote to Eventi even though Thesp was not yet voting eventi. I'm mildly confused by that but I don't think it's scummy. In 222 he scum-reads eventi, Dominator, and Sword Master. He unvotes davesaz for talking immediately after replacing Sword Master, which was consistent with earlier posts because his vote on Sword Master was to get him to talk more.

His 259 bothers me, because he voted Eventi with no reasoning. He could have at least posted a quote or noted a post that Eventi made that was scummy. He had previously been praising the eventi wagon but didn't say why earlier either. His other scumreads are Dominator and PMysterious. Then switches to Dominator when that wagon builds up steam, but he had said earlier that he was okay with switching to any of his scum-reads. In 347 he didn't want to lynch Nethersprite. In the next post he responds to a few things Firebringer said.

354 is the first place he mentions anything specifically scummy eventi has done, which was going from seeing Dominator as a clown to wanting to lynch him. In the next post, he calls attention to the deadline and asks people to switch to wagons. He responds to questions from Dominator and davesaz. Then votes eventi again in 422.

Gives "negative points" to Persivul in 479 for cop/doc directing, which I agree with. On day 2, he says in 762 he thinks Dominator is more likely to be town after the Eventi kill, I think it's because a lot of his read was associative tells between Dominator and Eventi but I'm not actually sure because he never talked about that. Then he asks people questions to follow up with the activity he had missed. In 776 he says All Alone is trying too hard but then votes Alchemist because he said he had the feeling that Alchemist voted for Dominator because he wanted an excuse to vote instead of hunting scum. In 803 he explains why he thinks Dominator shifted after claiming the gambit.

His reaction to the duppin cop thing seemed very genuine with 803, 805 and 807. Then he continues to argue with Alchemist about Dominator and calls Alch out for backtracking. In the next few posts he asks and answers questions, until 940 where he votes Persivul, on the grounds that Persivul feels off and there's weird resistance to his wagon.

Last few posts: He really wants an All Alone wagon but doesn't think we have time to push it. He thinks Dominator is town but wants him to get his act together regardless. Wants to ensure a list, and warms up more to lynching All Alone back when we thought Persivul might get modkilled. In 1036 he unvotes Persivul because of lynch confusion, but he votes his replacement in the next post because of NM's entrance. Is willing to shamelessly move his vote between All Alone, Not Mafia, and davesaz to secure a lynch. He said why he thought All Alone and NM/Pers were scummy, but why davesaz? Is it just because there's a wagon and a lynch is better than none?

In summary:

I like the way Thesp questions people and makes them follow up the things they say. But what I don't like is how he himself doesn't elaborate. For example, in the beginning of the game, saying he'd either place a vote on a lurker or someone in a "different parameter" that he would talk about later but hasn't yet. And how he never elaborated on a scumread for Eventi, just started pushing his wagon before he was even on it. And I'm seeing a lighter version of that with how Thesp is interacting with Davesaz.

I'm still weakly town-reading him. I like his line of questioning and how he interacts. He never seems defensive or like he has anything to hide. He wants to bring more people into the conversation and pick everything apart.

[Not_Mafia]

Come in RC

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah, I still feel like you're probably town but leaving you alive is way too much of a liability when we already have Dominator.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Not_Mafia]

From the little I've read, Alchemist4Scum

[pistachi0n]

Spoiler: Davesaz

Sword Master made one really stupid post before needing a replacement. Davesaz enters and catches up. He answers the questions Thesp posted at the beginning of the game. Agrees with Alchemist that it is scummy for RC to be trying really hard to paint Thesp as scummy. I agree with his post 249, that's also why I don't think it was scummy for Thesp to say something is interesting (even though there are other things that he needs to follow up on.)

In 254 he makes a note that the interaction between RC and Fire is weird and he wants to look at it later because it might be scum trying to be seen as a TvT squabble. Now we know Fire is town, so that wasn't the case. I like that he made a note of it though, in case he needed to come back to it later.

In 255 he says "You might want to explain to town why you find someone scummy, but telling your scumread how to become town isn't good" What's the difference? It's a balancing act. If you tell town why you're scumreading someone, then the potential scum knows what to avoid doing. But if you don't tell town why they're scummy, then you have a really weak case and people are less likely to join the wagon. So it sounds like he was just rearranging words in that post. In 261 he's done catching up, and his reads match Thesp's. He acknowledges that and says he probably needs to do more digging.

Wants to know why eventi is voting Thesp in 289. Asks people questions but doesn't place a vote yet. After more pressure, votes eventi for not answering any of his questions. Has a weak town on Dom and a medium town on Nether.

In 736 he does twilight analysis. In that post, he says there are consequences to calling him a liar even though nobody at that point had called him a liar--what? He notices Nethersprite's odd use of quotes.

Votes Thesp in 832 because the activity is more superficial than he remembered. Calls out RC's vote as weird after RC says the high activity players are likely to be scum and then votes davesaz (one of the high activity players.) Wants to know why Dom is voting Thesp and scumreading Alch, wants to know Alch's reads. Argues with both Dominator and Alchemist. Around 955 I notice that he hasn't really posted reads aside from votes. He's playing similarly to Thesp but with even less follow up. He really wants to know other people's scum reads and what makes them scum read people but he's been pretty stingy with his.

In 988, is willing to switch form Thesp to All Alone or Persivul. Next post is a reads list 1028, I find it suspicious that he doesnt' remember what he was thinking, because earlier in the game it seemed like he was trying really hard to come across as the analytical type who takes notes for later.

In summary: Davesaz is seeming mildly scummy to me, I like his entrance but then it seems like he's coasting and trying to get townpoints for interacting with other players without posting reads. Finally he posts reads but it's mostly general consensus.

pedit: NM was lynched but I was probably going to keep my vote there anyway, it was going to be either him or Thesp and I thought he was scummier.

[Thesp]

Yeah, I still feel like you're probably town but leaving you alive is way too much of a liability when we already have Dominator.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Why the lynch before claim?

Not_Mafia, if you are the cop, you should go ahead and claim now. (I'm doubtful, but just in case.)

[Not_Mafia]

I was VT

[RadiantCowbells]

Karma. I'm only returning the favour.