NY 188: Delicious Mafia II (Post-game chatter)

[Quaroath]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=18883
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=19175

My recent completed games are scum so. #welp.

[Shinobi]

Fro99er you automatically declaring Shinobi town without even hearing the scumslip is weird af. Why defend him so early without hearing me out?

Anyway I might just be overly paranoid. I'll see what Boon thinks about it before I make a fool of myself and bring it here.

I am still not entirely thrilled with Shinobi's performance recently so I'll leave my vote here for now.

Well.
If it's a performance issue that you have then I'm down for discussing it with you.
What seems to be the issue, precisely?

[Ozgin]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx

SilverWolf is right, he's either a VT or scum, this is the best lynch for information.

[Fro99er]

Fro99er you automatically declaring Shinobi town without even hearing the scumslip is weird af. Why defend him so early without hearing me out?

This is a fair point. I tend to rely on meta a lot. Maybe too much sometimes. But that actually felt like a town!shinobi reaction. When he was scum, he kept asking me to prove my case on him and explain things and blah blah. He totally played it cool there, which didn't seem like scum!Shin. But I'll hear you out.

Anyway I might just be overly paranoid. I'll see what Boon thinks about it before I make a fool of myself and bring it here.

I am still not entirely thrilled with Shinobi's performance recently so I'll leave my vote here for now.

:-/ but I get it in regards to the hood. I just feel it's a bit wrong to ask me why I consider shinobi town without hearing your case, then you won't tell me your case. It's like I'm not allowed to have an opinion on Shinobi at all until you explain things, unless it's a scum opinion. That's basically putting me (and everyone else) in limbo about Shinobi, and then you are free to question me/us for townreading him at your leisure.

[Fro99er]

@Wake - I'm having a really hard time reading/following all this:

Spoiler: @Wake

Here, my wagon was rushed, and I cautioned players regarding it. *

This had been preceded by three votes in rapid succession [11 minutes].***

The wagon attempt was questioned again.*

During this, TSO questions Grayfoxxxx for his vote on me.* Just after, Silverwolf questions all three.*

In response to TSO's question, Grayfoxxxx says he's scumhunting and sheeping Sal.*. At this point I do feel he's Town, but is a bit lame, or dumb, in that he reasoning sucks, and I think Scum in general, their nature being to do things to not be suspected and lynched, wouldn't resort to saying stupid things like that. Does that make sense?

At this point it starts to get interesting, and here is

exactly

why.

In response to Grayfoxxxx, TSO says he wants to lynch him.* He then says voting Grayfoxxxx will earn you towncred*, and stresses his desire to see Grayfoxxxx dead.*

Now, what's remarkable about this, like now? Let's see.

Knowing the nature of the game, and not wanting potentially dumb-Town being lynched because, well, Town, I caution the group again.* Meaning he could really be Town, and Scum

will

attempt to capitalize.

This is the start of the real issue.

TSO suggests I should move my vote, because he says it's doing nothing.*

Curious, and hyper-alert to manipulation, I ask him where he wants me to move my vote.*

TSO gives an unconvincing reason for voting for Grayfoxxxx.* Not enthused.*

Knowing that I was one of four players who had placed votes on other players that were at L-10, I ask him why he selects me.* He and I both know how it looks with Grayfoxxxx's unwise vote on my unwise wagon. A seed of doubt regarding TSO'd intentions stepping in between us to convince me to unvote him and go for Grayfoxxxx... I don't feel it is coincidental.

Curiously, he responds by asking me why I thought any of those other three players were even remotely worthy of my vote.* He misread.

Because of this, I ask him why he thinks Grayfoxxxx is worthy of my vote.*

TSO responds by asking me why I mentioned Boonskiies, that he's not a viable wagon, and that no one has really expressed interest in voting him.* While he said this, I knew he had misunderstood me.

Rewind a few posts: TSO hints at wanting one or more people to step up and help.* I'm weighing it.*

TSO provides some reasons why Grayfoxxxx should be voted, but he opens himself up for interrogation.* The main detail of import was him saying Grayfoxxxx lurked as Scum, implying Grayfoxxxx is Scum for supposedly lurking this game.

I clarify things for TSO here.*

It gets better.

I pick at his reasoning.*

Grayfoxxxx responds to TSO's reasons on why he should be voted.*

TSO then says he doesn't have the patience to cajole me into voting for Grayfoxxxx.*

So, knowing I'm voting TSO, and that I have a 7W with Grayfoxxxx on it, TSO tries to persuade me to change my vote to Grayfoxxxx. He's suggested who is and isn't remotely worthy of my vote, and has been persuade me to do something with flattery [cajoling].

Asking for evidence of Grayfoxxxx being lurky as Scum.*

TSO offers evidence that, in the end, actually hurts his case against Grayfoxxxx.* He links a game where Scum-Grayfoxxxx posted five times and then replaced out [1240 posts, 49 pages], as evidence of him being Scum here. This game, at that point, Grayfoxxxx has posted 37 times [1091 posts, 44 pages].

Does anyone else not see this?

Made my concerns known.*

TSO reaffirms my suspicion that he was wanting to get me to unvote him and vote for Grayfoxxxx.* Also that he was trying to capitalize on my predicament to effect change in my vote. Says he misread, and that he targeted me to change my vote because I was online, though he just reaffirmed to me that he chose me because of my predicament, to get me to change my vote. Which means he didn't target me because I was online. He then questions me as to why he would openly tell me he was trying to flatter me, though he just admitted that he had tried to flatter me twice to get me to shift, which means he was trying to flatter me none-the-less.

Pointing it out in retro.*

Throughout these exchanges, Grayfoxxxx has pointed out TSO's wishy-washy case against him based on Scum meta.

Silverwolf jumps in, voting for Grayfoxxxx.*

TSO apparently back-pedals off the shit case against Grayfoxxxx, and instead redirects to why Gray is voting me.*

I caution Silverwolf.* Unsure if she is Town, I decide to check if she will play stupid, or be genuine. Having ushered her into the game, and knowing that she played more than some of my games as she learned, I have a better understanding of her play than other players, in general. That's the truth of it. I know that Silverwolf gets weary as Scum, and doesn't like having to play under false pretensions.

Again I caution her about TSO's atgtempt to manipulate me to strike at Gray, even though Gray is on my 8W for insufficient reasons.*

Guys, note these next exchanges.

Silverwolf asks me if TSO is Scum for his push on Grayfoxxxx.*

In effect I respond to her that if she read the last exchanges, she would see that TSO was trying to subvert my vote to Grayfoxxxx, through flattery, trying to capitalize on my predicament, which would benefit TSO and put another weight on Gray.*

Note this, guys.

She very simplistically decides to not actually read the exchanges or my posts, especially the ones where I actually posted to point out he was trying to manipulate me. Definitely over-simplifying it; Town Silverwolf would give a damn and not try to gloss something over. Something is wrong with that filter this game, which gives me reason to pause. She asks me if I'm scumreading TSO, townreading Gray, and why I objected to her vote. That is dancing around the question. She never once asked me

why

I was suspicious of TSO. No, that would draw attention.*

Basically, at this point a shade of doubt manifests, in that maybe, maybe, Silverwolf is running interference for TSO.

Shinobi timely pops in. Says Ozgin [who'd later be run up wrong and claim JoaT].*

Silverwolf is loving the idea. She wants to see that wagon going. Divert!*

I respond to her, brushing away the dodgy questions, and asking her exactly why she hasn't asked me why I'm suspecting TSO.*

She shuts down by saying I'm rude.* Doesn't want to answer, or really talk about it, which makes me think 'why?' I mean, she's presumably Town, so why wouldn't Town-Silverwolf actually engage? No, she'd be interested. She wouldn't be dodging. She wouldn't try to redirect the discussion. She wouldn't be playing obtuse. No, I point my finger at Silverwolf, and I keep my vote on TSO for now.

Shinobi plays dumb, and also tries to redirect the discussion elsewhere, to the bad Ozgin wagon.*

Both Silverwolf and Shinobi refuse to engage me over TSO's attempt to capitalize on my predicament, and his attempts to flatter me to change my vote. They're just ignoring it, and I think I might know why.

TSO
Silverwolf
Shinobi

I'm keeping these three in mind. Did not like that flow of exchanges one bit: it was coordinated.

Again I point this stuff out.*

Shinobi completely plays dumb in a devil-may-care kind of way.*

Shinobi and Silverwolf are avoiding engaging me directly and genuinely on the TSO/Grayfoxxxx issue.

TSO does not engage further. Proceeds to go about as if nothing happened.

I'm calling it on those three, tentatively.

Can you give a nice, consise TL;DR version of it. Every time I try to read it, my eyes glaze over.

[GrayFoxxxx]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx

SilverWolf is right, he's either a VT or scum, this is the best lynch for information.

Info on who?

[SilverWolf]

Throughout these exchanges, Grayfoxxxx has pointed out TSO's wishy-washy case against him based on Scum meta.

Silverwolf jumps in, voting for Grayfoxxxx.*

TSO apparently back-pedals off the shit case against Grayfoxxxx, and instead redirects to why Gray is voting me.*

I caution Silverwolf.* Unsure if she is Town, I decide to check if she will play stupid, or be genuine. Having ushered her into the game, and knowing that she played more than some of my games as she learned, I have a better understanding of her play than other players, in general. That's the truth of it. I know that Silverwolf gets weary as Scum, and doesn't like having to play under false pretensions.

Again I caution her about TSO's atgtempt to manipulate me to strike at Gray, even though Gray is on my 8W for insufficient reasons.*

Guys, note these next exchanges.

Silverwolf asks me if TSO is Scum for his push on Grayfoxxxx.*

In effect I respond to her that if she read the last exchanges, she would see that TSO was trying to subvert my vote to Grayfoxxxx, through flattery, trying to capitalize on my predicament, which would benefit TSO and put another weight on Gray.*

Note this, guys.

She very simplistically decides to not actually read the exchanges or my posts, especially the ones where I actually posted to point out he was trying to manipulate me. Definitely over-simplifying it; Town Silverwolf would give a damn and not try to gloss something over. Something is wrong with that filter this game, which gives me reason to pause. She asks me if I'm scumreading TSO, townreading Gray, and why I objected to her vote. That is dancing around the question. She never once asked me

why

I was suspicious of TSO. No, that would draw attention.*

Basically, at this point a shade of doubt manifests, in that maybe, maybe, Silverwolf is running interference for TSO.

K, I am not running interference here. I asked you if you were scumreading TSO and if you were townreading Gray and what exactly the problem you had with my vote was. These are 3 separate questions all worthy of a response that you never game me. It stands to reason that if you said yes or no and didn't elaborate I would ask you why.

Shinobi timely pops in. Says Ozgin [who'd later be run up wrong and claim JoaT].*

Silverwolf is loving the idea. She wants to see that wagon going. Divert!*

Funny how you fail to mention I had my vote on Ozgin all day and was suspicious of him long before this. It wasn't like this was some brand new idea of mine that Ozgin needed to be wagoned.

I respond to her, brushing away the dodgy questions, and asking her exactly why she hasn't asked me why I'm suspecting TSO.*

She shuts down by saying I'm rude.* Doesn't want to answer, or really talk about it, which makes me think 'why?' I mean, she's presumably Town, so why wouldn't Town-Silverwolf actually engage? No, she'd be interested. She wouldn't be dodging. She wouldn't try to redirect the discussion. She wouldn't be playing obtuse. No, I point my finger at Silverwolf, and I keep my vote on TSO for now.

No, those were legitimate questions that you refused to answer. Don't think you can brush off my questions and then expect me to answer yours. That's not how it works if you want an open dialogue. It isn't one sided. You are word twisting big time here and I do not appreciate you manipulating my intentions like this at all. Not one bit.

Shinobi plays dumb, and also tries to redirect the discussion elsewhere, to the bad Ozgin wagon.*

Both Silverwolf and Shinobi refuse to engage me over TSO's attempt to capitalize on my predicament, and his attempts to flatter me to change my vote. They're just ignoring it, and I think I might know why.

TSO
Silverwolf
Shinobi

I'm keeping these three in mind. Did not like that flow of exchanges one bit: it was coordinated.

Again I point this stuff out.*

Shinobi completely plays dumb in a devil-may-care kind of way.*

Shinobi and Silverwolf are avoiding engaging me directly and genuinely on the TSO/Grayfoxxxx issue.

TSO does not engage further. Proceeds to go about as if nothing happened.

I'm calling it on those three, tentatively.

OK, First of all associations like this are really, really bad to do D1 without any flips. It's ridiculous. You assuming you know how I am thinking this game and being manipulative in how you are interpreting my actions to paint 3 people in this game as scum is terribad play Wake.

I am having a bad game. I think that's been obvious since it started. I'm not even going to deny it. I would not be surprised if people who know me are scumreading me for it. I started off trying to do something different and it back-fired, then I got crabby due to some stress I'm dealing with and some in game frustration as well, I replaced out because I was annoyed, replaced back in when I found my slot being scumread even harder and not wanting a replacement to deal with my shit like I did to unfortunate Titus when she replaced in for me in Sweet Dreams because she saw me struggling and wanted to help. I've been tired and you are right Wake, my "filter" or whatever you want to call it is off this game. I am off this game. I am having a bad game. I don't know if you read the dead chat in the game I just got out of that Oz modded but I was talking about being in need of a break and I think that's true. I un-preinned from another game I was invited to and turned down another invite to replace into but did say I'd reconsider in a month or so if the game is still going on. I'm not myself or on the ball in this game and that's just the way it is. I also am not playing as hard or putting as much serious effort in because damn it, I am pissed that so many are playing anti-town and it's kind of soured me on this game.

Right now, I think the active people are mostly town. Red and Creede should be replaced. I would not be surprised if at least one of those two is scum. I don't expect shit from ika or Boon and one of them may also be scum and Salmanence is either scum or also anti-town. I find this type of play very annoying because if they are town, they are hurting my wincon as well as their own.

I am town Wake and the fact that you can't even look at the rest of my play beyond what you outlined here is really disappointing. I claimed early, something I'd never do as scum. I replaced out and in-seriously almost breeching the point of being unethical if I was scum. And so far I have fucked up badly in my emotions, my read on Ozgin, and my ability to play right now.

Stop being bad Wake and stop being paranoid of me. It is seriously getting old. I'm only responding to it now because I know how much you dislike it when people don't respond to your long posts.

[Spiffeh]

Well.
If it's a performance issue that you have then I'm down for discussing it with you.
What seems to be the issue, precisely?

Like I said, you ask a lot of good questions but I never see follow up or anything made of them, which makes me think they're asked to make you look like you're engaging without really working anything out from them. Plus you seem to be supporting a lot of the wagons for information but again don't really make any reads or insights based on these, but are always happy to hop on the next one! This is why I am voting for you.

This is a fair point. I tend to rely on meta a lot. Maybe too much sometimes. But that actually felt like a town!shinobi reaction. When he was scum, he kept asking me to prove my case on him and explain things and blah blah. He totally played it cool there, which didn't seem like scum!Shin. But I'll hear you out.

:-/ but I get it in regards to the hood. I just feel it's a bit wrong to ask me why I consider shinobi town without hearing your case, then you won't tell me your case. It's like I'm not allowed to have an opinion on Shinobi at all until you explain things, unless it's a scum opinion. That's basically putting me (and everyone else) in limbo about Shinobi, and then you are free to question me/us for townreading him at your leisure.

Yeah I guess that's fair, but I still feel it was a bit hasty of you to declare him town without hearing it. I would expect a townie to withhold their judgement until they heard the slip. Whether you know about it now is irrelevant. If you were his scumbuddy this may be a good way to protect him by discrediting me as soon as possible.

But yeah it was mostly just a weird phrasing used at a weird time (in my opinion) that I thought may have been meant for his scum chat and not the neighborhood. It could go both ways I think. If Boon thinks it holds any merit I'll clarify.

[Fro99er]

I would expect a townie to withhold their judgement until they heard the slip.

So we're all required to withhold judgement until Boon gives you the ok?

I'm not liking that. I'm not saying its scummy, I just don't like that. I thought Shin was town well before you brought up a possible scumslip, and now I'm supposed to magically null read him because you say he might have scum slipped but you won't tell us?

[Fro99er]

meant for his scum chat

So do you think scum have daychat?

[Shinobi]

Well.
If it's a performance issue that you have then I'm down for discussing it with you.
What seems to be the issue, precisely?

Like I said, you ask a lot of good questions but I never see follow up or anything made of them, which makes me think they're asked to make you look like you're engaging without really working anything out from them. Plus you seem to be supporting a lot of the wagons for information but again don't really make any reads or insights based on these, but are always happy to hop on the next one! This is why I am voting for you.

Theoretically you'd be correct if Anna had done anything to sway my opinion of her at all since voting her. I can't say that she has - does your opinion differ from mine? Why?
I'm also not a fan of keeping my vote idle.

As for other reads, I'm on record as agreeing with SW's list and have made several distinctions in the interim. Did you find those unsatisfactory in some way?

[Spiffeh]

Pedit: how did Shinobi possibly scumslip? I've been pretty solid town on him, so an actual scumslip would change my view of the game state.

Shin's probably town. That reaction is not scum!Shinobi reaction.

When he was scum in Refraction just last month, he kept asking me to prove my case on him and why and why. And why and why!

No it's the way you threw it in there right after you asked what the scumslip was. Naturally, you expected me to share what the slip was, so why throw in an "oh btw Shinobi is town"? I don't have a problem with you town reading him-it's just your timing was interesting. Or scummy. I don't really know.

[Spiffeh]

I agree that Anna needs to contribute more, but Skybird and Fro99er seem to have moved on from her which makes me think she's satisfied them in the neighborhood. So I do disagree that Anna should be lynched.

Could you quote SW's list? I can't find it in her ISO

[Fro99er]

No it's the way you threw it in there right after you asked what the scumslip was. Naturally, you expected me to share what the slip was, so why throw in an "oh btw Shinobi is town"? I don't have a problem with you town reading him-it's just your timing was interesting. Or scummy. I don't really know.

Right, so Shinobi has been scum reading me all game, and me town reading him all game, and we used his potential scumslip as a way for me to start defending him.

[Shinobi]

Here.

I posted my own list the page before.
Pedit: Yeah frogger has been moving up on my town list more recently but it's not an entirely objective read at this point. Probably something I need to sleep on. Dnu.

[Kop]

I was going to elaborate on it and then I realized that I misread what you said. Just ignore what I said in the first place because it doesn't hold water.
Moving on.
Who's your top lynch target and why?

At this current time, the best candidate right now would be Gray, it's a BWCS. We can get information from that lynch without losing a great deal. I don't particularly like policy lynches, which I feel he is, but if he want to move forward in this game, he is the best course of action, right now.

However, before I place my vote, I want to know what these next few posts are all about.

Real quick I'm down for a Shinobi wagon.

I think he may have scumslipped in our neighborhood (which is why I directed him and Boon to the neighborhood) and I feel like all of his question-asking haven't yielded many results in the form of reads or votes.

VOTE: Shinobi

You're bad.

Even more interesting, it comes from another town read of mine in Spiffeh.

Shin's probably town. That reaction is not scum!Shinobi reaction.

When he was scum in Refraction just last month, he kept asking me to prove my case on him and why and why. And why and why!

I know you've explained why you have changed your stance on your original post, however, I believe that is a flimsy reason, at best. You simply cannot judge someone from previous games, to how they played in the past, everybody changes there game plan, experience grows, confidence in how to play certain roles you get better. You simply brushed that off, fairly easily, far too easily if I think so. Meta from previous games, do give a a slight indication, to what they possibly could be in this game, but I'd not use that as concrete.

If you believed that it was a scum slip, but weren't actually going to follow through with it, then why bring it up? Why not mention it in your hood to get that reaction in there, before bringing it to here?

[Kop]

However, before I place my vote, I want to know what these next few posts are all about.

Real quick I'm down for a Shinobi wagon.

I think he may have scumslipped in our neighborhood (which is why I directed him and Boon to the neighborhood) and I feel like all of his question-asking haven't yielded many results in the form of reads or votes.

VOTE: Shinobi

You're bad.

Even more interesting, it comes from another town read of mine in Spiffeh.

Shin's probably town. That reaction is not scum!Shinobi reaction.

When he was scum in Refraction just last month, he kept asking me to prove my case on him and why and why. And why and why!

I know you've explained why you have changed your stance on your original post, however, I believe that is a flimsy reason, at best. You simply cannot judge someone from previous games, to how they played in the past, everybody changes there game plan, experience grows, confidence in how to play certain roles you get better. You simply brushed that off, fairly easily, far too easily if I think so. Meta from previous games, do give a a slight indication, to what they possibly could be in this game, but I'd not use that as concrete.

If you believed that it was a scum slip, but weren't actually going to follow through with it, then why bring it up? Why not mention it in your hood to get that reaction in there, before bringing it to here?

EBWOP

Ignore stance on original post, Fro99er wasn't the original poster. However the rest remains the same.

[Ozgin]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx

SilverWolf is right, he's either a VT or scum, this is the best lynch for information.

Info on who?

Uh, if you're town, scum is among the people who pushed your wagon without reason, sheeped onto it, etc.

-or-

If you're scum, we see who hard-defended you, tried to save you, etc.

Lynches and flips give information, if you weren't aware.

[SilverWolf]

Right now, I think the active people are mostly town. Red and Creede should be replaced. I would not be surprised if at least one of those two is scum. I don't expect shit from ika or Boon and one of them may also be scum and Salmanence is either scum or also anti-town. I find this type of play very annoying because if they are town, they are hurting my wincon as well as their own.

Adding Lapsa and Annadog to this list.

So right now the people not playing or playing so anti-town it is actually harmful to town at this point:

-RedFF
-Creede73
-Lapsa
-Annadog
-ika
-Boon
-Salamence

That's 7 people out of 21, fully 1/3 of the people playing this game, who are hurting town or need to be replaced or are scum. I guess if you are scum, I can't fault you because you have very little incentive to contribute at this point in the game. But if you are town, you are actually harming town's wincon and this is the main reason town loses their games IMO. I have zero tolerance for this type of play unless someone is on V/LA (V/LA doesn't really count as long as you contribute outside of that) or maybe flaked and the mod will replace (not much you can do about that). Otherwise, regardless of what happens, these people need to contribute or die because they are either scum or will hurt town late game by making the game apathetic or for sure should not be alive at a lylo situation. And tbh, I don't even give a damn what your role is at that point. Just replace or die.

I'd actually rather lynch one of these people than Gray because at least Gray has been posting now. Problem with that is twofold. We have outed roles. Outing another one (if that were to happen) would be more harmful to town D1 than not. AND, we have about 3.5 days until deadline and a NL would be more harmful to town than not.

So I have no choice but to stick with Gray but I'm calling this shit out. It needs to be brought out and highlighted so town can look for scum here or put people's feet to the fire to contribute.

[Kop]

VOTE: Grayfoxx

This here is the best of it all now. We have all backed ourselves into a corner, where it seems we are on damage limitation. But their is two plus sides to this lynch, we can learn stuff from it, and we either lose a VT, which isn't much of a blow than possibly outing another PR by looking elsewhere, or we hit scum which will be great news. We can then move onto day two with information about the game, that we can work through.

I still would like to hear more about this possible scum slip, and the posts that followed that. It's strange that you would bring that up in here, then simply brush it off, from a single post that only contained two words. What's that all about?

[GrayFoxxxx]

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx

SilverWolf is right, he's either a VT or scum, this is the best lynch for information.

Info on who?

Uh, if you're town, scum is among the people who pushed your wagon without reason, sheeped onto it, etc.

-or-

If you're scum, we see who hard-defended you, tried to save you, etc.

Lynches and flips give information, if you weren't aware.

Yes I'm aware you repetitive player you. But I appreciate atleast you answering. For some reason everyone wants to talk about there vote on me, with everyone else but me.

Almost the whole town has been on and off of my wagon. For no reason, other than to get info. It's like a perpetual fucked up cycle. I think my flip wild only clear Wake, and make TSO look bad. Which he will worm out of.

Again I'm asking all of you WHO EXACTLY would lynching me give any solid info on?

Is it worth it to lynch a VT just to get a fuck ton of WIFOM tommorow?

I can already see it. "Well he was playing bad so you can't blame my vote on him" is all a scum will need to say. TSO will feed the town more lies, and town will not be a step closer to any usable info.

[GrayFoxxxx]

And now Kop is saying it's a policy lynch...wtf

[GrayFoxxxx]

My whole fucking wagon is like "we will get info on the flip". But on who if the whole fucking wagon is saying the same shit.

[Kop]

And now Kop is saying it's a policy lynch...wtf

Well it's simple, we either come off you, and go onto the next target, to possibly out another role that we'd rather stay hidden? Or we run up a scum member that could fake claim, great that we catch scum, but in order to do that, we need a counter claim which results in a PR out.

It's a policy lynch, plain and simple, but it's BWCS.

[SilverWolf]

Gray-My reasoning is twofold:

-I don't want a NL D1-I seriously feel that would be extremely harmful to town-hence saying it's info. lynch

-I don't want any more roles outed, should be obvious why

-I don't think we have time to flashwagon anyone else

-TSO gets a real hard look tomorrow if you flip town, I for one will examine the votes/wagon on you as I always do with a town flip

-We will learn more after N1-possibly finding out if we are in multiball for example or maybe a PR will have caught someone, who knows?