Mini 1708: Mafia Café [Game Over!]

[Cheetory6]

VC1.07

Davsto

[5] - RadiantCowbells, ChaosOmega, HenryCabotLodge, The_Jester, Marvin Maganoo

The_Jester

[4] - free stool sample, Monkey Saint, JohnnyFarrar, Davsto

Not Voting

[4] - A Simple Plan, havingfitz, Jake from State Farm, TheEMC

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day One will end on (expired on 2015-08-30 19:00:00)

[ChaosOmega]

Jester's last was an extremely genuine display of emotion with no real ulterior motive and it strikes me as incredibly townie and unlikely to come as it did from scum.

Davsto is scum because his positions are inconsistent, he's more focused on the way he appears than on scumhunting (remember when he said he wasn't pushing someone because someone else had gotten scumread for using that argument), and because of his associative tells with Monkey who might as well be confirmed scum at this point.

This. Except my scumread on Monkey Saint isn't as strong.

Speaking of Monkey Saint, you never answered my question:

Throwing suspicion at a claimed role before they can prove themselves? Might be one of the scummiest things I've seen all game.

And how can a doctor prove themselves without dying and flipping as doctor?

A Simple Plan, you ignored my question I asked you a year ago in 204, so don't bother answering it now. But I would like to know your current list of reads.

[JohnnyFarrar]

While we're on the 'things simple didn't answer a year ago' subject

@Simple - can you link me to any other game where you've laid out this note taking plan you've outlined in 121? Also if I look into your past games are they gonna follow this "There's a reason for everything I say" pattern?

[free stool sample]

I'm a little put off by the number of people claiming to scum-read Monkey without voting him. Chaos, Cowbells, Marvin...that's enough of a foundation to form a decent wagon on Monkey, but all three of you have taken pains to justify voting the claimed doc instead. Personally I read Monkey as mostly null -- maybe a little suspicious due to the reactionary slant of his posts, but to me he seems primarily just inept at responding to RC's strange rhetoric, and I think that's having an undue negative effect on his tone & appearance. I'd be on a Cowbells wagon a lot sooner than a Monkey wagon, is what I'm saying.

But back to the point... it seems to me like the basis for a wagon on Monkey is already out there, and yet the would-be-wagon's key motivators are all too gunshy to cast a vote. Why? I could understand pursuing Davsto's lynch if there really seemed like there were no other alternatives, but even among the Davsto voters, there already is one, plus there's 6 days to deadline. To reiterate, I don't buy Davsto's claim, but this collective behavior suggests the alternative possibility that someone in that crew is still hoping to avoid having to use their NK on the doc...

For a second there, I was doubting my Jester vote, but I think that's just me getting antsy with the game slowing down a bit. I think HCL is right to associate Jester's response to his wagon with Davsto's response to his wagon. They're both ultimata, although the rhetoric is obviously different. "I'll self-hammer" vs. "I'm the doctor" -- the former might even be more desperate, since the Doc claim has a blatant expiration date as well as the possibility of a counter-claim. You can't counter-claim the threat of self-hammer.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Wait what has Bells done by way of scumminess? I'm far from voting MoSa right now but to say you'd vote Bells first?

[ChaosOmega]

I'm a little put off by the number of people claiming to scum-read Monkey without voting him. Chaos, Cowbells, Marvin...that's enough of a foundation to form a decent wagon on Monkey, (1) but all three of you have taken pains to justify voting the claimed doc instead. Personally I read Monkey as mostly null -- maybe a little suspicious due to the reactionary slant of his posts, but to me he seems primarily just inept at responding to RC's strange rhetoric, and I think that's having an undue negative effect on his tone & appearance. I'd be on a Cowbells wagon a lot sooner than a Monkey wagon, is what I'm saying.

But back to the point... (2) it seems to me like the basis for a wagon on Monkey is already out there, and yet the would-be-wagon's key motivators are all too gunshy to cast a vote. Why? I could understand pursuing Davsto's lynch if there really seemed like there were no other alternatives, but even among the Davsto voters, there already is one, plus there's 6 days to deadline. To reiterate, (3) I don't buy Davsto's claim, but this collective behavior suggests the alternative possibility that someone in that crew is still hoping to avoid having to use their NK on the doc...

1. "Taken pains" is a strange way to word that. Do you view the three of us as having stronger scumreads on Monkey Saint?

2. So you read Monkey as null, and you see a group of people that have expressed suspicion of his slot and yet are not voting him. What information does that give you about the alignment of Monkey and those people?

3. So your post is questioning the motives of people on a wagon of a claimed power role that you yourself don't believe. Isn't that weird to you?

[free stool sample]

I'm a little put off by the number of people claiming to scum-read Monkey without voting him. Chaos, Cowbells, Marvin...that's enough of a foundation to form a decent wagon on Monkey, (1) but all three of you have taken pains to justify voting the claimed doc instead. Personally I read Monkey as mostly null -- maybe a little suspicious due to the reactionary slant of his posts, but to me he seems primarily just inept at responding to RC's strange rhetoric, and I think that's having an undue negative effect on his tone & appearance. I'd be on a Cowbells wagon a lot sooner than a Monkey wagon, is what I'm saying.

But back to the point... (2) it seems to me like the basis for a wagon on Monkey is already out there, and yet the would-be-wagon's key motivators are all too gunshy to cast a vote. Why? I could understand pursuing Davsto's lynch if there really seemed like there were no other alternatives, but even among the Davsto voters, there already is one, plus there's 6 days to deadline. To reiterate, (3) I don't buy Davsto's claim, but this collective behavior suggests the alternative possibility that someone in that crew is still hoping to avoid having to use their NK on the doc...

1. "Taken pains" is a strange way to word that. Do you view the three of us as having stronger scumreads on Monkey Saint?

2. So you read Monkey as null, and you see a group of people that have expressed suspicion of his slot and yet are not voting him. What information does that give you about the alignment of Monkey and those people?

3. So your post is questioning the motives of people on a wagon of a claimed power role that you yourself don't believe. Isn't that weird to you?

1.

"Taken pains," "made an effort," "went out of their way" -- phrase it however you want. All I'm saying is that it seems to me like all 3 of those players have in some way acknowledged that perpetuating a wagon on a claimed doctor D1 is generally inadvisable or at least non-traditional, but that they're going to do it anyway.

As for the 3 of you having stronger scumreads on Monkey than Dav, that is undeniably true for Cowbells:

Monkey Saint's still a better lynch but I want to see what we can get out of this first.

On the other hand, you're probably right ChOmega to say that this doesn't constitute "stronger" scumreads, but here's yourself & Maganoo on the subject:

UNVOTE: davsto can't lynch the medic claim, so I'll just hold on to my vote until I get a chance to really read through all of this. I will say that I'm still not sure about you, but that is a day 2 problem now.

Sure. We don't lynch him today. There's a NK that's not him. Do we lynch him D2?

You've both expressed that it's a bad idea to lynch a doctor claim without giving him a night to (A) use his ability, and/or (B) attract the NK, and/or (C) implicate himself by surviving the night. I just see NO REASON WHATSOFUCKINGEVER to lynch him D1. Obviously we all think Davsto is full of shit. I don't think anyone has said they buy this claim. But in the event that he's telling the truth, why would we do the scum's work for them? At least this way we ALLOW for the possibility that he's not lying. What do we lose by doing that?

2.

I don't see how it could say much one way or the other on Monkey, but it suggests to me that there's very likely one scum at least in that circle of three. (I've also considered that the reason everyone's too chickenshit to vote is because there's more than one scum there, and it implicates the others too openly.) Although in large part, my point in the previous post was about what's causing the game to stagnate, and less about reads.

3.

No, not really. To me, it's weirder to advocate the lynch of a claimed PR on D1, and weirder still to acknowledge that's a bad idea, and then do it anyway...like the 3 of you did.

[JohnnyFarrar]

That quote from 379 is way outta context, should read again. Also answer my question.

[free stool sample]

That quote from 379 is way outta context, should read again. Also answer my question.

Shiiiit, you are right actually. This is the context to which you refer?

Sure. We don't lynch him today. There's a NK that's not him. Do we lynch him D2?

Probably

So if we're gonna faff about and lynch the claimed doctor D2, why not do it D1? It gives us more info to work with D2, and Davsto is almost assuredly not going to die tonight.

I guess ChOmega has always advocated a D1 lynch of the doc-claim? So yes - I don't have any right to fault him for not voting MonkeySaint. My mistake. But still...is that really a tenable position to hold? I'd like him to elaborate on how a D1 lynch of Dav would provide us "more info to work with" when in the alternative scenario, we would have another flip, plus a night kill (or even the lack thereof).

As for your Cowbells question, I should clarify I guess. What I was saying was that they're both overall pretty null to me, especially Monkey because whenever he posts, he seems to be working his way out of a hole Cowbells has dug for him, and that's always gonna make someone's tone sound defensive and reachy. I've agreed with Monkey on most of the Davsto claim debate, but I guess since that's mostly theoretical/mechanical, it shouldn't really be a point in either direction. Cowbells comes off as a lot defter at avoiding these kinds of holes, but that's only because he quotes fucking Labyrinth and says shit like this:

If you were adequately skilled to judge my play, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

In sum, I don't scumread either of them -- not yet, at least -- but when put into comparison with one another, I think RC's stonewalling is being accommodated way too readily as just "playstyle" and if the fledgling case against Monkey is mostly tonal, then we should show RC the same kind of attention.

[ChaosOmega]

RC's 243 was almost a week ago before Davsto even claimed doctor. What, did 383 and 418 not help you perpetuate the bullshit point you were making? And my quote is clearly a hypothetical trying to get into Johnny's head a bit, if you read that conversation at all. Blatant fucking misrep.

Obviously we all think Davsto is full of shit. I don't think anyone has said they buy this claim. But in the event that he's telling the truth, why would we do the scum's work for them? At least this way we ALLOW for the possibility that he's not lying. What do we lose by doing that?

So in your head, you believe that everyone thinks Davsto's claim is full of shit, but the scum will NK him anyway? I don't get why you and Monkey keep this nonsense thing going about giving him time to use his ability. Doctor isn't confirmable. The longer he's alive, the longer he's a distraction in this game.

it suggests to me that there's very likely one scum at least in that circle of three

If Davsto flips scum, does that change your view on this?

To me, it's weirder to advocate the lynch of a claimed PR on D1, and weirder still to acknowledge that's a bad idea, and then do it anyway...like the 3 of you did.

More lies!

PEdit: All of that was typed before 458.

I'd like him to elaborate on how a D1 lynch of Dav would provide us "more info to work with" when in the alternative scenario, we would have another flip, plus a night kill (or even the lack thereof).

A Davsto lynch gives us more information than a Jester lynch. There's more associatives to look at, and we would have the concrete alignment of the biggest topic of discussion D1. Not lynching him gives us maybe the chance of stopping a NK, and then a D2 dominated by discussion about Davsto (which doesn't productive to me at all).

In sum, I don't scumread either of them

Yet...

there's very likely one scum at least in that circle of three

So, you scumread Marvin then?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Would you classify yourself as an angry person, Chaos?

[ChaosOmega]

CHAOS ANGRY

Haha. In real life, no. In mafia, sometimes.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Trying to get a handle on how you react to stuff and there's an anger in 459 that is hard for me to place. Maybe you just tend toward the upset.

[free stool sample]

Baby likes to fuck!

In sum, I don't scumread either of them

Yet...

there's very likely one scum at least in that circle of three

So, you scumread Marvin then?

This is actually a misrep, but I'm not sure if you're aware of it. For me to say that I think it's likely there's scum in a certain set of players, doesn't necessarily indicate that I scumread any/all of them independent of that association. Coincidentally, yes -- I would pick Marvin of those 3 for most likely to be scum, but this isn't a process of elimination situation. It's a false conflation. Plus, I completely misremembered your take on MonkeySaint so like I said -- it wasn't fair of me to include you in that circle in the first place. I townread you, for the record, and the way you're hammering me right now for playing fast and loose is reinforcing that read.

Okay, so another point of contention -- would you advocate letting the Davsto lynch go through without having heard from the four non-voters?

[ChaosOmega]

This is actually a misrep, but I'm not sure if you're aware of it. For me to say that I think it's likely there's scum in a certain set of players, doesn't necessarily indicate that I scumread any/all of them independent of that association. Coincidentally, yes -- I would pick Marvin of those 3 for most likely to be scum, but this isn't a process of elimination situation. It's a false conflation.

Yeah, logic has your back here, but common sense ain't so cool with you. If you don't scumread Marvin, then you've said in a certain group of people, there's very likely to be scum, yet you don't scumread any of them. I can't think of a good word to sum up this behavior, but it reads fake. Like you want to show you're scumhunting, but don't want to step on anyone's toes.

I townread you, for the record, and the way you're hammering me right now for playing fast and loose is reinforcing that read.

And now it feels like you're just buddying up to me to get me off your case. That first question I asked you in 455 was your chance to elaborate on the point you made, and your response to it just felt like agenda posting. You went through each of our ISOs and found a quote that you post out of context that reads fine with what you're saying, but doesn't hold up to analysis. I attack you for it, and you back off and call me town.

Okay, so another point of contention -- would you advocate letting the Davsto lynch go through without having heard from the four non-voters?

This is a point of contention? I'm ok with it. It's not ideal, especially in the case of TheEMC, who has posted literally nothing of substance the entire day. We have enough time in the day though that this isn't a concern.

[havingfitz]

I now present to you my impression of Bells:

*ahem*

"Hey guys I'm great at Mafia you don't even understand! I'm not gonna communicate with any of you though, I don't actually want to affect voting in any way. But my play is top notch I swear!"

Coming to Broadway this fall.

This is very humorous and pretty much describes my last game with RC.

As far as I care, Cowbells has no goddamn reason to act this way if he is town.

....which looks to be similar to the game I just finished with him where is was town. FYI.

Up to this post (310) in my catch up. Still in progress.

[Marvin Maganoo]

@stool My post 367 was right after I caught up and read that Davsto claimed Doctor. It was my initial reaction and I unvoted because that is what I usually do for doctor claims. However, as I stated in Post 441 and Post 443 davsto's actions even after his doc claim have remained anti-town at best. He has done nothing to help us figure out the game or assist us in gaining any more info despite the fact that he should be killed N1. He's exuding a confidence like he knows he's not going to die in the night (as though he's scum perhaps?) I don't like his effort in this game, I don't believe his claim, and I don't think we should give him a night so we can all start day two questioning why he didn't die and if he's the real doctor. I'm not sure why you chose a post almost 100 posts old to discredit me when I have more recent posts describing my exact thought process, but i guess that is the only way to protect your partner right?

I mean you basically say "look at the wagon you could form on monkey rather than davsto" despite null reading monkey. Why are you protecting davsto? What does he provide town besides a very unlikely night one save? Not unlikely because it's s crapshoot, but unlikely because he's scum. Who would you like to lynch if not davsto or monkey?

[TheEMC]

Well, crap, I completely forgot about the game, I'd like to apologize to everyone.

[free stool sample]

@stool My post 367 was right after I caught up and read that Davsto claimed Doctor. It was my initial reaction and I unvoted because that is what I usually do for doctor claims. However, as I stated in Post 441 and Post 443 davsto's actions even after his doc claim have remained anti-town at best. He has done nothing to help us figure out the game or assist us in gaining any more info despite the fact that he should be killed N1. He's exuding a confidence like he knows he's not going to die in the night (as though he's scum perhaps?) I don't like his effort in this game, I don't believe his claim, and I don't think we should give him a night so we can all start day two questioning why he didn't die and if he's the real doctor. I'm not sure why you chose a post almost 100 posts old to discredit me when I have more recent posts describing my exact thought process, but i guess that is the only way to protect your partner right?

I mean you basically say "look at the wagon you could form on monkey rather than davsto" despite null reading monkey. Why are you protecting davsto? What does he provide town besides a very unlikely night one save? Not unlikely because it's s crapshoot, but unlikely because he's scum. Who would you like to lynch if not davsto or monkey?

Listen, I'll let you say anything you want about my play today but don't say I'm protecting Davsto. Not only was I the one to make the initial case against Dav, I feel like I've been more than clear that I would very much like to lynch him. I don't know how many times I can explain this, but I just think we have more to gain as a town by sparing him today, because if in the unlikely event that he IS the doctor, scum will have to decide whether they want to risk leaving him alive and possibly having their NK prevented.

As for your second question, I like my Jester vote, you're next on my list, and I want to take another look at Jake too, especially since in the wake of his tete-a-tete with Dav, there's been almost complete radio silence there. Pulling a Costanza, Jake? Leaving on a high note? But -- like I've stated before -- if by the end of D1 the only thing we can agree on is the scumminess of Dav's behavior & claim, I'd be fine lynching him. I'll put him at L-1, I'll cast the hammer...whatever.

And as to the whole "100 posts old...my recent thought process" thing: you realize that your rationale for foregoing logic and calling for Davsto's D1 lynch is exactly what Davsto did re: Cowbells, and what Jester did re: Davsto? I'm turning myself into a one-trick pony here, but to me it's quite scummy to preface your vote the way you did: narrate your supposed crisis of faith, then undermine your own case by resting it all on what's essentially policy ("Well he's anti-town anyway...").

I would venture to say that ChOmega's earlier point about Davsto is just as applicable to Maganoo in these circumstances:
(I added the bold.)

Sigh...well my town read on Davsto is gone. That's the same sort of shit case you used as scum in your last game. "Well, they're scum or bad town, so we should lynch them anyway." It doesn't look like scumhunting, it looks like you want a reason for being on a town lynch.

Do you scum read anyone who supports a policy lynch?

No. I've tried pushing policy lynches on players as town. My issue is

fencesitting between a policy lynch and a scum read.

It's harder to read into someone's motives for being on a lynch, and it gives scum more ways to weasel out of suspicion for being on the lynch.

[Monkey Saint]

I only skimmed the last page. Just want to give my answer to this question before I read the ensuing argument.

Speaking of Monkey Saint, you never answered my question:

Throwing suspicion at a claimed role before they can prove themselves? Might be one of the scummiest things I've seen all game.

And how can a doctor prove themselves without dying and flipping as doctor?

Well if a claimed cop or vig were to survive the night, or there's no NK at all, I think it would look ok for davsto. But there's never going to be 100% certainty with wifom.

But you should consider the possibility that he doesn't have to prove himself: He could be NKed, or he could get investigated, or the real doctor could die/be forced to claim. I think there's a very high chance that one or more of these 3 things will happen eventually. I mean what are the combined odds that davsto survives N1 without investigation and there's no real doctor? Even in that rare case he seems likely to be lynched later.


And if people are trying to argue that letting him live is big benefit to scum, I'm not seeing how. If he's as incompetent as you guys make him out, his play will quickly reveal who his partners are.



To be honest I'm tired of talking about Davsto. I'd probably spend less time focused on him if jester wasn't lurkin'. Everyone just vote Jester, he'll hammer himself. At least then he'd be posting.

[Monkey Saint]

I now present to you my impression of Bells:

*ahem*

"Hey guys I'm great at Mafia you don't even understand! I'm not gonna communicate with any of you though, I don't actually want to affect voting in any way. But my play is top notch I swear!"

Coming to Broadway this fall.

This is very humorous and pretty much describes my last game with RC.

He should change his name to RadiantCassandra.

[A Simple Plan]

Posting to let yall know I'm back. I just got through with my first day of classes, but have tomorrow off, so I'll catch up after some sleep.

[Marvin Maganoo]

@ Stool

I haven't been fence sitting at all. I have disliked davsto all game. The only reason my vote came off of him initially was because of his medic claim, but it went back on him after giving it thought and evaluating more. If my transparency in my posts is going to make you read me as fence sitting and thus scum, then so be it, but I am going to give my thinking behind my votes and unvotes.

I am second on your list? why? Because I don't agree that we should spare the fake doctor claim just in case it is true? This is an agree to disagree situation. You believe we have more to gain by letting him live and making them decide between killing him N1 or letting him live and risking having their kill saved and I believe that he is mafia, so he is definitely coming out of N1 alive and he is just going to be a huge question mark day 2 and we will be having this exact same discussion.

Rather than convincing me not to vote davsto why don't you try to convince me why I should vote Jester since he's your top scum right now?

[The_Jester]

Catching up, a lot to read...

[Jake from State Farm]

well i'm bored

vote: havingfitz