NY 188: Delicious Mafia II (Post-game chatter)

[goodmorning]

I dont even know what your other two points are

2. On Frogger outing: meh.

I'm not super convinced by

'but mod meta' and

'he's not been using the thread wisely'.

Mods can change up their meta just like anyone else, and

I don't think Kop would necessarily know how to use a Neighbour thread to its fullest. Hell, I don't even know how to do that half the time.

And asking the people you've neighbourised who you should get next? That's definitely something I would do if I was out of my depth (which is pretty much always).

1 bold, the other italicised

[Nosferatu]

What does "using a neighbor thread to its fullest" even mean?

[Nosferatu]

The real question is, if Kop is scum, who are his scumbuddies (if he flips ww)?

[goodmorning]

We have perfectly good flips to take associatives from, let's not do them with people who haven't y/y?

[Fro99er]

I dont even know what your other two points are

2. On Frogger outing: meh.

I'm not super convinced by

'but mod meta' and

'he's not been using the thread wisely'.

Mods can change up their meta just like anyone else, and

I don't think Kop would necessarily know how to use a Neighbour thread to its fullest. Hell, I don't even know how to do that half the time.

And asking the people you've neighbourised who you should get next? That's definitely something I would do if I was out of my depth (which is pretty much always).

1 bold, the other italicised

Bolded is speculation. WHY don't you think he'd know how to use a neighborizer role? Explain, instead of just assuming.

Italicized is something you'd do. Why does what you do have any bearing on what he does? How does that refute my point? My point his, he's trying to appease town. I've even pointed out a specific paraphrased quote that serves NO town purpose.

Your defenses of him are really weak. Stop speculating and actually provide something concrete.

[Nosferatu]

We have perfectly good flips to take associatives from, let's not do them with people who haven't y/y?

I was really asking for everyone else's opinions since I'm not too experienced with associative/interactive tells, but that point is still valid.

[goodmorning]

I dont even know what your other two points are

2. On Frogger outing: meh.

I'm not super convinced by

'but mod meta' and

'he's not been using the thread wisely'.

Mods can change up their meta just like anyone else, and

I don't think Kop would necessarily know how to use a Neighbour thread to its fullest. Hell, I don't even know how to do that half the time.

And asking the people you've neighbourised who you should get next? That's definitely something I would do if I was out of my depth (which is pretty much always).

1 bold, the other italicised

Bolded is speculation. WHY don't you think he'd know how to use a neighborizer role? Explain, instead of just assuming.

Italicized is something you'd do. Why does what you do have any bearing on what he does? How does that refute my point? My point his, he's trying to appease town.

Your defenses of him are really weak. Stop speculating and actually provide something concrete.

Bolded: Because he's got ten completed games and I've got about a hundred ten, because I've been a Neighbour or Neighbouriser 4ish times that I can remember, maybe more. With all that experience I have of Neighbourhoods and me still having trouble, coupled with him being a generally less active player than I am anyway...

Italic: Weirdly, it's kind of a good idea to lean on Townies you feel might be having a better game than you. Silver's PR made her very likely Town.

It's not appeasement, it's good sense.

Also, last time I was a Town Neighbouriser, I asked everyone I Neighbourised whom they thought I should Neighbourise next. It's totally a believable behaviour from Town, as much as or more than from Scum.

Your 'case' on him is what's weak.

And mostly speculation, at that.

I've even pointed out a specific paraphrased quote that serves NO town purpose.

You mean this?

Also Kop said this (paraphrasing) in the neighborhood PT

"I want to keep our neighbor PT (penthouse) private so that scum don't take out confirm towns, giving them less place to hide. If we're not killed, they won't be able to hide"

That's such scum BS. Why is he assuming myself and sky are conftowns? He shows NO town paranoia there. None. It's like he wants to make a "conftown" bloc of me, sky, and him, and ride that out. Fuck that.

I'm guessing he thinks any of several things:
That if Scum was in the Neighbourhood, he'd be dead by now AND/OR
That Silver tends to have decent reads, so Sky is probably OK, and that you were checked (2008) (admittedly by Scum, so meh but I can see why he might think it) and came back clean (well, at least non-WW (2886)) AND/OR
That his role is far more likely to be Town-aligned (which is, in fact, true for site meta in general), which would make him pretty confTown.


You keep pushing the narrative that he has to be Scum, but all his behaviour is quite simply explained if coming from a Town POV.

--
Frogger for last Maf? Hmm. Oz readslist in 1192 makes it plausible. Frogger would be a weird investigative choice as well, and Oz didn't reinforce that result in his death post. Only thing pointing slightly against it is that TSO would be a more likely teammate to have cleared.

BUT if it's 1-2-5, and it probably is, we can't lynch the last Mafia or we lose.
We need to aim Wolf today and hope for crosskills.

[goodmorning]

Actually, that's not quite right, but lynching the last Maf would put us in MyLo with no hope of crosskills.

[goodmorning]

Then again, if we lynch Wolf and Scum both kill Town then we're at 1-2-3 and absolutely fucked.

[goodmorning]

ooohhhh

food queue: roast beef with yorkshire pudding

ahhhh, christmassss

i yearn for your fried potatoey goodness

even though they're fried with a little marmite which should taste really weird but is somehow fucking delicious

[Lapsa]

Mahonster vote Frogger with me.

[Lapsa]

[Kop]

Typing this from my phone, hate making posts on phone.

I didn't choose wolf or sky or frog just to gain trust as you pointed out, I chose them to help me find scum. By bringing in Wolfy she was one of my strongest town reads, and knew that would help us discuss the game without distraction and find scum. I asked her opinion on who to bring in for the next night as I did not want to take it upon myself and bring in who I think is town, that could potentially be scum, same goes for you frog. I might not be the best in reading people, so I felt that with wolf and sky having a better understanding at reading people than I do so I asked for there opinion. It wasn't all about trust it was all in aid to build up a relationship and help each other to find scum.

[Mahonster]

Something's not right here.
I'll have to check later.
UNVOTE: Kop

[Lapsa]

BUT if it's 1-2-5, and it probably is, we can't lynch the last Mafia or we lose.
We need to aim Wolf today and hope for crosskills.

Actually, that's not quite right, but lynching the last Maf would put us in MyLo with no hope of crosskills.

Then again, if we lynch Wolf and Scum both kill Town then we're at 1-2-3 and absolutely fucked.

sounds so familiar to Refraction game. //damn you, Thor :E
i guess the most beautiful part of multi-ball is that it tends to keep tension alive till the very end

scenario #1
mislynch
result: town insta gg

scenario #2
maf lynch
result: 2-5 -> day6 2-4
decent chances to win. less polluted discussions yet idea of crosskill is history and town cannot afford mislynch

scenario #3
Wolfie lynch
result: 1-1-5
3.1 day6 5 town insta gg (unlikely. town would be too much of a threat for scum in 1 vs 4)

3.2 day6 1-1-3
3.3 day6 1-1-4 (scum double targeting)

afaik mutual scum faction victory ain't possible (@Aero amiright?)
meaning - town can afford no-lynch or even mislynch.
doing so town would forcefully trigger scum chicken-run

[Lapsa]

let's get down to business

UNVOTE:



@Kop which pair of players are remaining wolves?

[Aeronaut]

vc 5.5

VoteCount 5.5

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch!

Mod Notes:

Thanks for yo scumday wishes~

Skybird -

Kop -

Fro99er, Nosferatu, Skybird

(L-2)

Nosferatu -

Lapsa -

Mahonster -

Annadog40

(L-4)

Fro99er -

Annadog40 -

Goodmorning -

Not Voting

-

Kop, Goodmorning, Mahonster, Lapsa

Food Queue -

solyanka, roast beef with yorkshire pudding

Day 5 ends in (expired on 2015-09-17 15:40:32)

[Lapsa]

@Aero amiright?

[Skybird]

UNVOTE: Kop

I read the wiki entry on neighborizer and the article states that this role is usually town. I know that doesn't mean the role is always town. The problem with Frog's point on mod-meta is even if the scum neighborizer was killed N1, the slot still flipped and people saw that Aero had that role in his game. I could see him using it again in an unrelated game, but why use it in Delicious II? Heck, just having a neighborizer has led us into a WIFOM place.

[vettrock]

@Aero amiright?

A join scum victory is only possible if there is a situation where it is draw. Two scum remaining, one from each faction. No majority possible, they crosskill each other for everyone dies. Something like that would be a joint scum win, as it is not a draw since town would lose.

[Skybird]

@Mod, food queue: Lutafisk, egg rolls, smoked salmon, coconut shrimp, whole lobster

[Lapsa]

A join scum victory is only possible if there is a situation where it is draw.
Two scum remaining, one from each faction.
No majority possible, they crosskill each other for everyone dies.
Something like that would be a joint scum win, as it is not a draw since town would lose.

ugh... that's kind an important right now.
and you sound really vague

hunting 2 wolves would be much easier than loner maf.
and benefits for doing so are appealing

either there is [win, draw, loss] or [win, loss]

i don't see states [win, win / draw, loss] to be consistent with game rules

specifically:

3) Play to your faction's win condition, as long as you do not break any game or site rules in doing so.

let me try it once more:

would it be playing against the win condition for scum to target remaining town in 1-1-1 night?

[vettrock]

A join scum victory is only possible if there is a situation where it is draw.
Two scum remaining, one from each faction.
No majority possible, they crosskill each other for everyone dies.
Something like that would be a joint scum win, as it is not a draw since town would lose.

ugh... that's kind an important right now.
and you sound really vague

hunting 2 wolves would be much easier than loner maf.
and benefits for doing so are appealing

either there is [win, draw, loss] or [win, loss]

i don't see states [win, win / draw, loss] to be consistent with game rules

specifically:

3) Play to your faction's win condition, as long as you do not break any game or site rules in doing so.

let me try it once more:

would it be playing against the win condition for scum to target remaining town in 1-1-1 night?

Any of the factions can win, and the other factions lose. If there is a situation where there is a draw between two factions, but a third faction loses, I would call that a joint win between those two factions.

If it is 1-1-1 going into night. If one scum faction targets town, and the other scum faction targets the opposite scum team, (assuming nothing modifies this, there isn't a town vig, etc.), at day, there is one scum remaining and wins. If the scum target each other, town wins. If both scum target town, it would start the day with both scum alive, and it is a joint win, as it is not possible for either faction to win at that point (draw), but town lost.

Who scum should target is based on who they think will be targeted by the other faction. As long as you are trying to win(even if it is a mistake) you are playing to your win condition.

[goodmorning]

I trust Lapsa a weird amount right now and I don't know why.

[Lapsa]

Any of the factions can win, and the other factions lose.
If there is a situation where there is a draw between two factions, but a third faction loses, I would call that a joint win between those two factions.

in 1-1-1 there are 3 factions and one of them is town.
town-scum 1-1 having "joint win" makes even less sense

If both scum target town, it would start the day with both scum alive, and

it is a joint win

, as

it is not possible for either faction to win at that point (draw)

, but town lost.

Who scum should target is based on who they think will be targeted by the other faction. As long as you are trying to win(even if it is a mistake) you are playing to your win condition.

problem is that there's no reason for scum to target opposing scum faction if targeting town is "joint-draw-win-but-town-lost-yay"

i'm not talking about human interaction. there's no thinking right or wrong. it's just plain stupid 2+2 math and definition of game rules

either "joint win" is same as "win" (kind a like jester getting lynched) and scum have no incentive to crossfire (ain't talking about blundering),
or it's a draw (town loses) and scum must try to avoid "joint win" to their best ability because not doing so would be playing against win condition

take chess game for example. draws are common.
usually one player makes a blunder, loses significant material, realizes there's no chance to win and forces a draw.
since it's "best of x matches", every player gets a point and game continues.
in this case - draw is a true draw. neither player gains an advantage

in mafia game - there's no continuity. every match is singular.
in given 1-1-1 situation - there is a chance to win for all involved factions.
with "joint win same as win" game rules scum teams gain an edge since their win condition can be achieved in additional way

as for town - it matters little which scum team wins since town is losing anyway.
and given edge of additional win path could be ignored - possibly that's even taken into account during setup balancing

-------------------> but that's not the point of my question <-------------------

town has to know

right now

if it's better trying to avoid such a situation or not.
and that can and must be answered by properly understanding game rules

is this "joint win" valued same as "win" or it's a true draw and neither scum wins the game?

despite that it's against my principles to replace out - poorly defined game rules happens to be an exception

got real life for that kind of ambiguity