Open 609: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Luna Fox]

I would like more people to engage me, but this game is now moving slow and there's nothing to engage me about.
Where are the others?
Sparrow dissapeared, Bella has been gone too.

[Prolapsed Brain]

Searching for a replacement for Lizard_Buttock.

Flow Alpha has been prodded.

[Sparrowbird]

Sorry everyone. I just can't get my head into the game. I have mild gutreads which I'm posting asap

[Sparrowbird]

Sparrowbird
ika
Firebringer
Vedith

PantherPunt
Luna Fox
Flow Alpha
TellTaleHeart

Alchemist21
MaxwellPuckett

Lizard_Buttock
Shiro

Bellaphant

[Prolapsed Brain]

Votecount 1.09

Lizard_Buttock - 5 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, Luna Fox
Bellaphant - 2 - Alchemist21, Sparrowbird
Luna Fox- 2 - Flow Alpha, Bellaphant
Sparrowbird - 1 - MaxwellPuckett
TellTaleHeart - 1 - PantherPunt
Vedith - 1 - Lizard_Buttock

Not Voting: TellTaleHeart

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Just as a note (totally not binding), if you're posting in color, you may want to use the VOTE: tag, or bold your vote in black. I almost missed a purple vote.

[Shiro]

Sparrowbird
ika
Firebringer
Vedith

PantherPunt
Luna Fox
Flow Alpha
TellTaleHeart

Alchemist21
MaxwellPuckett

Lizard_Buttock
Shiro

Bellaphant

So if you scumread lizard you are welcome to join the wagon, I mean sure you scumread Bella more but that wagon is knida dead

[Luna Fox]

Sparrowbird
ika
Firebringer
Vedith

PantherPunt
Luna Fox
Flow Alpha
TellTaleHeart

Alchemist21
MaxwellPuckett

Lizard_Buttock
Shiro

Bellaphant

I would like explanations on those reads.

[TellTaleHeart]

X|

I meant to get to this yesterday but I didn't and I'm

still

not all here.
Scattered things: I'm townreading both the replace-ins (Luna and Shiro). Quick evaluation of the Lizard wagon: I like the composition of the wagon. Lizard herself has mostly escaped my notice and I'm not town reading anything of hers so I'll vote the wagon and move things along.

VOTE: Lizard

[Vedith]

That's L1 btw...

[MaxwellPuckett]

Panther's whole exchange with Luna makes them lean scum to me.

Wait minute I just noticed this.

Why did you get a lean scum on those two by their 1v1

Nothing on it seemed SvS

and it is debatably very TvT

Luna was just replaced in kinda lost town v Pretty aggressive town player

Like how exactly are you reading that exchange ?

I should have said 'him', not 'them'. I'd forgotten Panther's gender so I just went neutral. I'm townreading Luna and am suspicious of Panther.

Sorry for being fairly useless.
I'm going to get reads up as soon as I care. Which should be, fairly soon?

:c

Granted, as I was reading I did see you post a list of reads. Now let's see you explain them. Even though they're gut, there has to be a reason somewhere, right?
One in particular I'm confused about is Flow Alpha.. what made you decide to townread that slot?

X|

I meant to get to this yesterday but I didn't and I'm

still

not all here.
Scattered things: I'm townreading both the replace-ins (Luna and Shiro). Quick evaluation of the Lizard wagon: I like the composition of the wagon. Lizard herself has mostly escaped my notice and I'm not town reading anything of hers so I'll vote the wagon and move things along.

VOTE: Lizard

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just lynch Lizard and be done with it so the replacement doesn't have to fight a losing battle. I really don't mind a Lizard lynch, though, and while it moved quickly I think a lot of people were scumreading him in the first place.

No intent to hammer from me yet, in any case. I actually do want to hear from the replacement, and declaring intent is silly when there's no one around to claim.

[Firebringer]

Did Lizard replace out?
We should get a role claim before any hammer.

[Bellaphant]

@Veid, can you explain why me and tth are not the same alignment?

I didn't say that you can't both be town...
Neither did I not say that you are not the same align... I said that I doubt you are both scum.
My comment of TTH being scum is going by FB's read, not what I think of his align.

Ah, I just can't read. As evidenced by...most of this thread. I thought is was off that you said that, but if you didn't then I'm actually reassured.

Was there another question for me?

378 is valid. Asking for a claim without intent to hammer looks like role fishing.

Also yes, this is true but:
1) I didn't know Vedith didnt have an intent to hammer, his post looked like that to me, and that's how I interpreted it.
2) I'm not even the one declaring the inteint or asking Bella to claim, I was just interpreting Vedith's post.

It did look like you were asking for claim without intent, yeah. But, you interpreted it as intent, and I didn't, so your post looked worse. With this and the other Veid thing, I think I'm just having trouble interpreting inference this week. Honestly, re-reading, I think you are town and we just suck at communicating.

UNVOTE:

I'm reading 448 as annoyed town btw.

Good. Seriously, though, the start of this game has been so frustrating for me.

Ugh, phone posting, but what bit of ' my vote was bad and emotional ' isn't me accepting a mistake? More on the rest after work, but...really?

I missed that part of your unvote post, so eventually you did accept it. I still stand by the rest of what I said.

Yeah, but you are working on some terrible premises. Also, one of the main reasons for your response to me is something I clearly addressed, but you happened to miss it? :S

@Ika, shut up about your townblock. This just seems like a cop-out now. All you've done so far is say you're townreading X and leaving it there. If you don't want to play the game, just replace.

post

there arent any post, its just something that i would expect from her to have in her first post.

i dont question my town reads cus then i get into a stupid paranoia and end up rewirting my block 100 times over. i have found that msot times i work better with jsut my day 1 reads and change after

im waiting on bella to drop her town tell that i ahve on her but i haev yet to see it

....I have no clue what this is, btw. Is it crying? Explaining I'm bad at reading this week? I would like you to give me a sentence on everyone in your town-block rn.

Also, apart from Lizard, who's being replaced out, who's scum??

Sparrowbird
ika
Firebringer
Vedith

PantherPunt
Luna Fox
Flow Alpha
TellTaleHeart

Alchemist21
MaxwellPuckett

Lizard_Buttock
Shiro

Bellaphant

I would like explanations on those reads.

Yeah, Luna's town. I don't want Lizard hammered before her replacement, btw.

[Firebringer]

So, how is everyones day?

[MaxwellPuckett]

ugh...ok then.

@Vedith - is that an intent to hammer then? Why else ask for claim?

Panther's whole exchange with Luna makes them lean scum to me. This post (made after Vedith confirmed Luna's assumption being right,

and Panther had to stop using it as a point of attack) looks like 'shit, I can't push that anymore'?

Actually, multiple times I saw Luna responding to Panther in an honest way

and Panther either pushing differently (i was really asking you

this

or moving on to something else.

I'd thought I grabbed the posts but I guess not. I just remember not liking Panther during the discussion.

Well that's one way to read that. But the "ugh...ok" was in response to Vedith saying "well you didn't say @Vedith so it could have been construed as a question to everyone".

If you want to take my aggression for scuminess, I can't stop you. Some people just read aggressive play as scummy. I guess I would just tell you to pay more attention to my reads, votes, etc. The pushes in and of themselves are for me to be able to make reads and subsequently, votes.

So alch, who on Bella's wagon (at any point now or earlier) are you scum reading? If you've come to that conclusion, I hope you can justify it with a read on someone

Luna and Sparrow. It would be odd if all 3 scum were interacting this way, but I've seen early distancing before. At this point, I'm more confident in the scumread on Sparrow than Luna, but I still have a scumread on her.

@alch, wrt sparrow- Ive double voted just because I forgot I had already laid my vote..genuinely, as town. Anything outside of that? Jc. That can definitely be a disingenuous derpclear attempt, but I was wondering if I may have missed anything else that you thought could be scummy.

Continues to defend sparrow. Why?

If you want to construe it as defense of Sparrow, I guess I can see that skepticism. It really was me saying that Sparrow was still null for me because I needed to see more. The vote park wasn't enough for me to scumlean. You can verify this in my readlist, but it's certainly not me saying I think Sparrow is town. It's me saying a Sparrow lynch will be pretty void of info, so I'd like to see more from Sparrow.

pedit- I like the color use for responding to multiple points. Hadn't previously considered it until ppl here started posting in color with regularity.

Sparrow has posted a bit more since. Not much, but some. How is your read on them right now, in light of their readslist?
I do agree that a Lizard lynch has more info than a Sparrow one, and in light of their recent posts I'm all for it.

I don't think I read aggressive play as scummy, it was your selective play. I'll bring up Sparrow again, because while you seemed very focused on Luna, you didn't seem to care about Sparrow. And, in this post, you said you wanted to 'see more from Sparrow'. I didn't see that in your actions at all. Instead, you asked a different player if they could see anything else scummy about Sparrow, while not actually pushing Sparrow yourself. If you wanted to see more, I didn't see you digging for it. See 308. I get that you were scumreading Luna at the time, but is your 'aggressive' style really not one that pays any attention to a scum's reads?

Also, 314, Luna once again brings up Sparrow, you once again don't listen, and instead defended them. I don't understand this docile approach to a player who you wanted to see content from.

From this I'm getting that you focus on active players, Panther, and that you see a lack of content as a nulltell. I agree with the second thing, and the first is actually an assumption on my part. What weirded me out was how the whole exchange went down.

PEDIT @ Bella: Is asking for an explanation on reads that were dropped with NO explanation a towntell for you? In my opinion it's one of the easiest questions scum can ask to look like a contribution. I'm just wondering why you picked that post of Luna's to quote when you agreed 'yeah, Luna's town'.

PEDIT @ Firebringer: I'm sick as a dog, how're you?

[Prolapsed Brain]

Silverjaws replaces Lizard_Buttock effective immediately.

[Firebringer]

I am decent Max, just woke up so dealing with morning crankiness.

How are you Prolapsed?

[Prolapsed Brain]

Insanely busy. But I just had lunch, so there's that.

[Shiro]

So, how is everyones day?

I am good I am good just ate so pizza,checking the mafia games, all around not bad

[Luna Fox]

So, how is everyones day?

Very hot in here.

@Silverjaws: You're currently at L-1, So it's better that you can read and get your thoughts out first and foremost.

My issue with Sparrow's reads is not only the lack of explanations, but i don't see how sparrow has a scumread on Shiro and a Null read on Max/Alch (Im hoping those golden/yellow reads are null), when im having the opposite reads on those.

[Silverjaws]

Hello!

I've been waiting for my role PM for two hours now but the mod hasn't sent it. I don't think it's fair to say anything else before I see my role and alignment as that could unfairly influence the game. I'll post again when I get it.

[Prolapsed Brain]

Apparently I..... SQUIRREL!!


But that's sorted now.

[Silverjaws]

Seven days left to deadline so I'll start with a content dump first. Lizard was run up essentially for being a weak and awkward player. I want to give town the chance to read me first before deciding if they want a claim.

I don't understand how TellTaleHeart has been leading wagons let alone not garner much suspicion at all. The number of social psychology tactics she's using would put a police interrogator to shame.

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved?

This deserves votes. Instead of asking PantherPunt what he found scummy about Alchemist, Varian and herself, she does this dodge and deflect move where in one stroke:
1. She belittles him, portraying him as a wild, paranoid player suspicious of the "discussion leaders" which trivializes his suspicion and puts him in a box where he is treated as a wide-eyed newbie that's not taken seriously.
2. Subtly portrays herself as something positive (a "discussion leader").

Whether we like it or not, in any confined group where there's lots of interaction, a pecking order exists. You see this in high schools, prisons, and reality show competitions like The Apprentice, and Survivor. Same goes for mafia forums. Some people are going to be taken more seriously than others. Some are mocked and put down by the group at large. TellTaleHeart's post takes something that occurs routinely in mafia games (suspicion) to turn it into a power play to instill the seed that "it's just some noob paranoid of active, aggressive players." Because if she asked him why he suspected her and responded to him, she'd be legitimizing his suspicion and interacting as equals - a much harder scenario for her to talk herself out of.

Beyond that, her Bellaphant vote and justification is awkward. If she suspected Bellaphant when they were both town in a different game, the natural move is to take a step back and take her time reading Bellaphant, not vote her again and subtly imply that since she's done it before as town, she must be town here.

Finally, there's her jump onto the Lizard wagon with no previous suspicion of my slot. "Liking the wagon composition" is the kind of vague ooey-gooey nonsense scum say when they have no concrete reasons. If I stretch, I could see it as her townreading the wagon. But the problem is, she has barely stated townreads on anyone and her scumreads so far amounted to... Bellaphant. That makes it easy to keep her options open and "like" any and every wagon composition.

VOTE: TellTaleHeart

[Luna Fox]

Unvote

I want to give you a chance to get more thoughts out.
I do want to know what you think of the other players, or at least the most active posters.

[Silverjaws]

Vedith is probably also scum. It's more of what's lacking in his ISO as opposed to what's there. He just stays on the sidelines and offers null comments and a good chunk of his content is fluff.

Add me on that list and you're set!

This is more concerned with being added to a townbloc than meaningfully contributing to it.

You should have more than just some concern. However, making that statement without any questions or without any follow up, what are you trying to gain?"

You say that the suspicion is both reasonable while also using that as a reason to omgus him. And then you change your story to saying it wasn't "actual buddying." Not buying it.

And then there are posts like this:

That's just lazy.

Anything that FB says never makes sense.

where he doesn't really try to sort alignments at all but comments on more neutral things.

--

I think it's way too early for a town bloc, and as you may recall from other games I have a thing about unnecessarily sharing my town reads. Ika, what are your reasons for being on Bella?

I see this post as stymieing the progress of the game. "Townblocs" are how Firebringer and Ika are expressing their reads so they can focus on a narrower playerpool. Reads change like all others. So, when is it a good time to start reading people?

Luna's entrance is interesting, and the aggression from the slot is more alarming because of the slight pressure their slot was under.

This is a wishy-washy read that doesn't say anything. "Interesting?" That's a word scum love using as filler.

--

Alchemist is a townread for early scum and townhunting effort. Ika and Firebringer are townreads for their collaboration and trying to make townblocs and discuss reads - alchemist can fall into this category too. The entirety of page 4 is a good one to read for why all three are town. They're all pushing the game forward in a productive way. PantherPunt is town for genuine scumhunting on page 6 and continued questioning of TTH even after she called him town. I disagree with most of Luna Fox's interpretation of TTH/Panther arguing but think Fox is town for the clear, hard opinions listed. Ironically, the aggressive interrogation upon replacing in is actually a good part of why I think Fox is town. Puckett is town. Undecided on Flow Alpha. I wouldn't rule out TTH bussing Bellaphant.

Sparrowbird's L-1 and lurking oozes scum pheromes. I'll happily vote there too.

[Firebringer]

I want to say again, you made no claim and you were at L-1.
Highly suspicious no matter how good your re-entrance and catch up is.