NY 190: Molla's Large Normal

[catboi]

FA_Q2's definitely been scum on this site and had pregame chat, though it was 7 months ago. I don't really see why they'd try to fake a tell that's so easily disproven, though? Just doesn't seem like what they were doing. Decent observation from Luna though, probably town for it.

I did a little bit of a meta read and have some comparable games to see that this is in fact simply how she plays. I don't like it as a main style because I still think it equates to one misread == potential loss if your words hold enough sway. And I still believe that town will reveal themselves by actions whether you look or not. I dislike these two posts in particular 31 and 151 (calling banana and kyubi town [respectively] for their suspicions on her) but it's not worth pursuing right now. Especially 31, which came off what was probably a random vote.

Right, find this at least decently understandable. Do completely agree that carelessly thrown around townreads can be severely detrimental, but that's an objection to the strategy and not the player using the strategy. Ultimately anyway if you box out too many people as town when you're scum, you run out of targets to mislynch and screw yourself. Agreed that 31 felt a little early and can understand objecting to that, but 151 doesn't really bother me, I think I townread 150 from kyubey as well.

[choof]

1.) They're not exactly afk. Zakk and Leegee have posted, it's just what they post has amounted to nothing. So they aren't in danger of getting replaced.
2.) No. I think lurkers have a higher % to be scum but it certainly isn't indicative. However, it's anti-town. Which is the next best thing.
3.) Depends on the claim. If it takes them to L-1 to claim, we have an entirely different issue on our hands.
4.) Yes, as I would in any lynch.

I still think it's far too early to be attempt a wagon/lynch on inactive players. even if you think that lurkers have a higher chance at being scum, a mislynch is a mislynch. I would much rather leave policy lynches until much further down the line.
what issues are you thinking about in regards to a claim at L-1? I don't see how that's inherently bad, especially if there's discussion going on and someone can pull a vote off before they get derp hammered. a claim around L-2 would probably be a lot safer, though.

[talah]

Well this is where I was up to last night before the site shenanigans, fortunately ctrl-c'd it when things started playing up:

---

If I was doublevoter , I wish I could vote choof....too
Maybe

choof+Luna

are teamed. Both misquoted me.... :shifty:
because Aj never said that in 30, I asked choof the question in my 74...

I remeber tentatively liking your entrance because you seemed to want to put yourself out there a bit with this "mystery player" who you recognised.
However, the above is fantastically poor reasoning.

Can you take a moment to explain to me how in particular choof's misquote benefits scum?
And then just briefly summarise why two scum are likely to both trivially misquote, intentionally or otherwise.

Because these are not reasons to base reads on, even if I try really hard to be subjective about it. They're excuses for calling players scummy.

---

I'll try to catch up with events quickly and not stay stuck in backlog... will be around with some time for a few hours at least today.
Feel free to say "Hi" or point out things of note :)

[Luna Fox]

Feel free to say "Hi"

Hi

or point out things of note :)

What do you think of 245

[VeeGee]

Banana switched from Luna to me pretty fast.

[talah]

Feel free to say "Hi"

Hi

or point out things of note :)

What do you think of 245

Hi!

Regarding 245, yes I saw FAQ's response there (and will get a context reading up now), but from memory it seemed like a statement with an odd focus.

Pretty sure the rules state that scum will have a shared PT which can be used before the game and during night phases. Easy to verify if FAQ was so inclined, but as far as him lying about what he knows - meh.

I was more interested in the fact he queried the existence of pre-game chat rather than pointing out that it would probably be pretty poor form for a mod to treat scum and town differently.

...at least off the top of my head.

Also you seem pretty townie to me but I'm aware there are several other perspectives.

[BananaCucho]

Banana switched from Luna to me pretty fast.

Yep.

[Luna Fox]

Also you seem pretty townie to me but I'm aware there are several other perspectives.

I wasn't asking about your read on me, but thanks ^_^

[zakk]

So many pages

Is AJ close to dead yet

[talah]

So many pages

Is AJ close to dead yet

No, and are you convinced AJ's scum?
I don't remember much of what you've posted.

[zakk]

You probably remember all of it, you just don't remember the fact that it's all of it. Lol

[talah]

Well I'm up to post 147 now but yeah your ISO's pretty bare of content after that.

What did you find "Oddly phrased" about my question to Vedith?

Incidentally, do you have a read on Performer?

[talah]

From Luna:

My thought process
>initially liked choof because he asked me a question which i thought was with the intention of helping him read me.
>choof and banana engage in their 1v1, in one of the quoted posts i realized that choof was being self conscious while accusing banana of the same.
>this removes my townread on choof and I vote to engage further
>choof ignores me and continues engaging with banana posts a scumread on both and votes someone else.
>this makes me think he's being dishonest with his posting but i've been wrong about assumptions before so i ask.
>he says he prefers IaI for active lurking.
>I see this as a valid reason and i start to doubt my scumread on him and banana vs choof start looking like TvT to me.
>he says to banana that he can't lynch him without a case.
>this is something i see scum caught for the wrong reasons say all the time, why can't he be lynched just because someone thinks he's scum?
>so im back to scumreading him.

So what you're essentially saying is in his next post you'll be town reading him. If his post on IaI was all it took to swing him from a scum read to a town read, your read on him is flimsier than papyrus.

I'm really not a fan of "essentially what you're saying" when the intent was obviously to recollect thought processes and be transparent.
Not sure if this is just me not liking your playstyle though.

I suppose you're someone who considers that being rock-solidly stubborn is a town-trait, ignoring the fact that town is the uninformed and therefore the mostly likely folks to be indecisive.
I don't think you're going to like me. I like to be free to change my mind as long as I can explain why.

Ah, this is the post I remember.

Vote:Luna

This can't stand as a mentality. Deflection here is dangerous in the sense that you essentially just stated "Scum will vote for me". More importantly, as I stated before, I don't like the apathy and agreement. The appeal to those who try to make points against you to which you simply admit and then read them as town. The lack of a solid read for fear of ruffling feathers. It all just screams a lack of wanting commitment on any sort of level.

The game's nature is to make decisions and pay the consequence for them. Trying to circumvent that by compliance and agreement is the exact definition of counterproductive to the town. And did I mention I really, really hate this general docility?

I'm... really not seeing the argument. Luna seems to me to have been fairly forthright in her thinking and willing to put herself out there with a willingness to explain why she would change her mind.
I also think scum are less likely to attempt to townhunt as it narrows options down the track.
And I already mentioned I'm not a fan of the whole "Big bold stubborn statements" = Town theory.

Reading through the rest of your ISO I'm going to move my vote mainly because of this:

As for me playing aggressively, once I start you might as well get used to it. If I see something I don't like, I generally hound it. There's two reasons for it: 1.) if you start calling people on misteps, it helps prevent apathy and the town won't go silent. 2.) It will help you understand my stance on everything and it also helps me get answers.

I recognise the scumhunting method and the fact you're doing more than just tunneling on a single case is consistent with the playstyle.
I'm not ready to call you town though.

UNVOTE: Aj The Epic

Still not caught up, but I have an idea of where my vote will be going unless something changes that.

[Aj The Epic]

1.) They're not exactly afk. Zakk and Leegee have posted, it's just what they post has amounted to nothing. So they aren't in danger of getting replaced.
2.) No. I think lurkers have a higher % to be scum but it certainly isn't indicative. However, it's anti-town. Which is the next best thing.
3.) Depends on the claim. If it takes them to L-1 to claim, we have an entirely different issue on our hands.
4.) Yes, as I would in any lynch.

I still think it's far too early to be attempt a wagon/lynch on inactive players. even if you think that lurkers have a higher chance at being scum, a mislynch is a mislynch. I would much rather leave policy lynches until much further down the line.
what issues are you thinking about in regards to a claim at L-1? I don't see how that's inherently bad, especially if there's discussion going on and someone can pull a vote off before they get derp hammered. a claim around L-2 would probably be a lot safer, though.

Worded it wrong. It should've read "if it takes them to L-1 to

post

then we have an entirely different issue on our hands.

As for now/later, tomorrow we'll have more reason to believe x to be scum and y to be town and they'll be more pressing than today. If you have to 'waste a lynch', do it day 1. I would be d1 has the highest mislynch rate anyways. Less information, no flips (even NK is somewhat usable) and limited information.

So many pages

Is AJ close to dead yet

Jesus died for your sins but I'm certainly not dying for your inactivity.

[talah]

Think kyubey, choof are likely town. Don't really like banana's posts overall, tunnel seems overaggressive for what it is and some such as 108 don't read as authentic to me. Would lean more towards scum there.

Banana and choof are *feeling* town to me for their back and forth but there's so much fluff content (mainly from choof) that it's difficult to give it more than a feels-read right now.
Kyubey could be town for making a couple of salient points but any lean there would be (even) weaker than the other two from my perspective. Which is not saying much.

You can be town by the way. You're obviously scumhunting.

---

Mods will not swap out due to not picking up the mail. Scum still have full view of what is put in the thread without them.

Well in fact that's exactly what happened (KT was replaced for not picking up his role PM). But yes the scum PT would stay the same regardless of what happened.

Read me replacing as a null and judge on my style rather than anything. :)

Very well, I await the arrival of your shining towniness.
On reflection I doubt that something as obvious as replacing for not picking up a role PM is any kind of valid tell in any case.

---

More importantly, it's really fucking hard to argue with someone agrees with you all the time.

That's a really interesting observation actually, and I'll keep it in mind with regard to Luna. Doesn't change my current read.

---

How do you know that the scum team was able to chat pre-game? I thought that was something that is explicit in the rules or does not happen?

Actually it was in the sample Mafia role PM:

Welcome,

BBmolla

, you are a

Mafia Goon

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• Factional Kill
  - The Mafia may kill one player per Night. This may be done in addition to other actions.
  
• Factional Communication
  - If there are other Mafia-aligned players, there will be a Mafia QT that can be used pre-game and during the Night.

Win Condition

You win when all players without a Mafia wincon are eliminated and at least one Mafia-aligned player is still alive (or nothing can prevent the same).

---

Breaking the wall.

[talah]

VeeGee

and

Talah

both seem confused from what little content that they contributed, which is usually never a good thing.

Confused? Kind of a superficial assessment don't you think?
If you're about to quote this post - don't bother:

I'm a little confused as to what the "this" that might not work, is.

Asking for clarification on a completely ambiguous statement (from choof's post 46) is different from being literally "confused".

Unless you'd like to elaborate on why you think I'm confused.

---

That brings me to Zakk and Veegee. I completely trust IaI to say something eventually that's meaningful so I'm not including him. Look at these two's isos, find me something useful. If they aren't going to post, I propose they die. In this case, Luna gets an extra day to produce some scum reads, we get rid of dead weight and I get another day to be completely cynical and go get more scum reads.

Of the two, I have to say Veegee is worse. He has zero content and no votes. Both are pretty much at zero content so it's nitpicking to me.

Vote:Veegee

With only 2 days played this seems a bit premature.
Something I'd consider in a vacuum with deadline looming, but lynches like this are probably no better statistically than a random lynch Day 1.

---

Anyway...
VOTE: Performer

I don't think any of the reasons he has given for his votes or unvotes have been genuine and I don't think the questions he's asking are helping him to determine anyone's alignment.

@Performer

- I'd like to hear your answer to my post 302

I'd also like some elaboration on your reads on Luna / choof / Aj, since you've floated them as a potential scumteam but have now moved on to VeeGee.

FoS: Aj
Aj/Luna/choof team?...

VOTE: VeeGee

[talah]

Anyway I'm as good as caught up now. Apologies for the series of posts.

Will be around for a while today.

[Luna Fox]

I like your posts, they also brought some things i had missed about aj and others.

I don't like how FAQ's stuff is being dismissed so easily tho. Just because "why would they fake something that can be easily searched", then if that can really be easily searched why didnt they even do it themselves? it's like saying "I'm obviously not scum because i don't know if scum has pre-game chat", which seems like a bit weird thing to mention.

[BananaCucho]

I like your posts, they also brought some things i had missed about aj and others.

I don't like how FAQ's stuff is being dismissed so easily tho. Just because "why would they fake something that can be easily searched", then if that can really be easily searched why didnt they even do it themselves? it's like saying "I'm obviously not scum because i don't know if scum has pre-game chat", which seems like a bit weird thing to mention.

I think you're stretching here a bit. At the same time, you could have a valid point ai this is one of those things I would put a leaf in to possibly revisit later.

[talah]

I think it's a bit of a stretch in isolation, but yeah FAQ does seem to be struggling with providing any meaningful content so he may have thought the whole "confused townie" gig would be something to do.

On the other had it's a discussion topic now so he should address it.

[Aj The Epic]

Admittedly I

still

haven't figured out what you were trying to say in 223. I eventually gave up on the grounds that it probably wasn't important.

As for Faq, I had filed his comment away as just kinda stupid. Ofc there's pre-chat: I think every game I've played on site had it.

[talah]

Hello Vedith btw.

I'm guessing you're town on what could be completely incorrect game meta which is that the person you replaced did not pick up their role PM.

Ergo no full scumteam to chat pre-game, ergo unfair on the scumteam.

How do you feel about that?

This?

It's just something that crossed my mind as a possibility when KT replaced and I mentioned it when I saw Vedith post when I was posting.
Actually thought it might be a good oppotunity to get some other interactions happening. See what he had to say about it.

Or... is there something else which is not figuring?

Also you've caught me just as I was about to walk out but I'll have my phone on me.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm guessing you're town on what could be completely incorrect game meta which is that the person you replaced did not pick up their role PM.

Ergo no full scumteam to chat pre-game, ergo unfair on the scumteam.

Like the only thing I've been able to infer from this is that you're saying the game wouldn't start if that slot didn't confirm? (And that scum would need both people there to be able to chat in QT before going ahead?)

If you're trying to say something else, please reword it quickly.

[talah]

That's pretty much what had crossed my mind. As in maybe they would have gotten separate communications from the mod, and he mightn't have posted the PMs to town prior to the scumteam confirming in the PT or something.

I realise it doesn't make a whole lot of sense now.

[BBmolla]

VOTECOUNT ONE POINT FOUR

VEEGEE - 3 - THEWORST, BANANACUCHO, PERFORMER,
AJ THE EPIC - 2 - ZAKK, I AM INNOCENT
LUNA FOX - 1 - AJ THE EPIC,
BANANACUCHO - 1 - KYUBEY THE KID
CHOOF - 1 - FA_Q2
THEWORST - 1 - CATBOI
FA_Q2 - 1 - LUNA FOX
PERFORMER - 1 - TALAH,

NOT VOTING: VEDITH, VEEGEE, CHOOF,

DEADLINE: (expired on 2015-09-30 20:05:00)

WITH 14 ALIVE IT TAKES 8 TO LYNCH