Mini 1714: Justified Season 2 Mafia (Endgame)

[Dwlee99]

4 people are on his wagon and there are 11 alive so L-2 I believe.

VOTE: Yimmy

I think the reads list is less damning than what Catboi and Dwelee are implying but I did not really like Yimmy's day one in general. I don't know how scummy I think Yimmy's responses day 2 are (I don't really see him as "flailing" exactly), but this is pretty much another instance of Yimmy only posting when pushed. I think he would be a pretty good lynch at this point.

Sorry for not posting more, I guess. I am never that active on the weekends and I really don't have that much new to say. I have been reading along on my phone, however.

It's not town's thought process to not change reads based on logic that you apparently "like".

Did I say that I like the logic of his posts? All I am saying is that I think some of the conversation of Yimmy is overblown. His answers since the push have not been great but I also don't see how they are scummy aside from the fact that his post don't involve any real new analysis. I still think he is a solid scum read in general though.

Really Dwlee, I feel like you are not even processing the text of my post, but looking to find fault in it. I still think you are town, but try not to let your emotions on me (and other players) get in the way of analyzing people's posts.

@people not on the Yimmy wagon:
I don't understand the hesitance that people are showing in pressuring Yimmy's slot. Am I missing something? Is it just a gut reaction thing or perhaps worrying that we are just misreading an un-engaged player as scummy? Honestly, I maybe worry about that too, but not enough to not push the wagon along on the basis of weak posting and inconsistent analysis. I want to hear people's thought process there.

@Shin & Xtox in particular: Am I being dumb here somehow?

I want to hear from my main scum read LLD too of course. -w-

I wasn't in any way attacking you..
You said: "I think the reads list is less damning than what Catboi and Dwelee are implying but I did not really like Yimmy's day one in general."
and so my response was explaining why the reads were bad.

[I_Am_Not_Varsoon]

Also, let me start some conversation by updating my reads right quickly while I have free time:

Town Reads:
-Dwlee: Generally seems engaged and scum hunting. The only reason I would think this slot is scum is because general lack of scrutiny on it if that makes sense? I think there have been a couple dumb post by this person (which I am surprised have not garnered more pressure perhaps), but they seem like honest errors.

-Catboi: I disagree with catboi in places, but this player has made a lot of pushes that I think have been well reasoned and I think their motivations have generally been apparent if you read through their ISO. I think he/she/it is suspicious and reasonable and thus towny, my earlier criticisms of their rhetorical style not withstanding.

-Shinobi: I think this slot has been consistently reasonable and has had thoughts that either match my own or could match my own if my point of view/engagement were slightly different from my own. Their suspicion of the Yimmy wagon (along with perhaps UT's support of that wagon) worries me.

Town Lean:
-Xtox: I think I have generally been pretty clear about how I feel about Xtox. I mostly see reasonable motives in his play. I wish he were more engaged, though. I also think that his lack of engagement since his D1 hammer is a somewhat tactical consideration on his part. Hence, I only give him a town lean.

Null Reads:
-Chamber: I actually find chamber a little inscrutable. I think Chamber's level of engagement fluctuates a lot. I worry that there may be patterns in their level of engagement that could be used to tactically defuse suspicion. I edited out like 4 sentences of speculation from this post.

-Vinkah: This may still boarder on a town read due to THEORYCRAFT. God, I wish Vinkah would post more. The jump from bombast to no posting makes me doubt myself.

Scum Lean:
-Scorpious: Lurking mostly. I also remember thinking a lot of his reads have been weird and poorly reasoned.

-UT: Ehhhh. I don't like him. I like his posts on the Yimmy wagon in the same way I gave him the benefit of the doubt early on: I think that his play might look like town trying to pressure an honest scum read. However, I think he tunnels people (seeing scum motive in any little thing) and could be using this tendency as a weapon to generate mislynches. Maybe he just has a disposition where he focuses on one player at a time and hammers away? Even then, I think he warrants some suspicious due to a relatively low ratio of substantive posts to other kind of posts.

Scum Reads:
-Yimmy: I didn't really like his day one play. His initial response to pressure swayed me some but I do not find his recent responses too inspiring. I also think Catboi's read list theory is pretty decent circumstantial evidence against how genuine his reads list really was. And really, Yimmy's reads list was the first post of his that I really thought said "town" to me.

-LLD: I made a big dumb post for this. Read that. Also look at other posts I have made in response to her and note the continued lurking.



Pedit:
@Dwlee Oh shit. Yeah. I see what you mean now. I thought you were still pushing on me from critiquing whatever it was you said that one time on day one.
To be honest, I am not 100% I agree with you there, then. Like: I have "liked" catboi's logic and your logic in places even where I did not agree with you both in that the line of thought seemed genuine and town motivated. I agree that it is suspicious, though.

[Untrod Tripod]

I have "liked" catboi's logic and your logic in places

[I_Am_Not_Varsoon]

I also like trailer park boys.

[Dwlee99]

He said though that "he just didn't think about it" or whatever he said and not "I liked his logic but didn't agree".

[Untrod Tripod]

I figure I should give it a few goes before I actually start posting pictures of my rapidly-emptying drink

[catboi]

[snip]

Where has shinobi been reasonable/had thoughts that match your own? Why do you lean town on xtoxm if you think he's deliberately avoiding engagement with the thread?


This was a decent reminder though that I should explain, my read on scorpious is based partly off meta of being scum with him in the (godawful) Pula Mafia, where he was generally horrific/awkward and seemed to have difficulty saying much of anything, and instead mostly asked a lot of passive questions. He was similarly bad in Space Mafia. By contrast he seemed to have put in some legitimate effort with his townplay in his newbie game. Which is why I liked him showing some fire and blowing up on LLD early, and his early reads list made it seem like he was trying and not just being a lump. Also, him being suspicious of vinkah makes sense from a persective where he'd just seen a scum player claim on page 1 and get a free pass for it. His fade since then bothered me because of the meta, there was some sense of purpose to the questions he's asked since but he really wasn't doing very much - that might be due to him flaking, though. Still would be unlikely to lynch the slot.

[chamber]

-Chamber: I actually find chamber a little inscrutable. I think Chamber's level of engagement fluctuates a lot. I worry that there may be patterns in their level of engagement that could be used to tactically defuse suspicion. I edited out like 4 sentences of speculation from this post.

Sometimes it takes me a bit to get into a game. Sometimes I never do. In this game I've gotten going, but then like half the game was absent and it really kills the drive to keep caring when half the game isn't even here.

[Dwlee99]

Meta, always a great scum hunting tool, right?
Someone put a link to BBT's signature please.

[catboi]

Meta's entirely valid as a tool, only the misapplication of it is bad. Regardless of if you don't think 3 games is a meaningful sample, it's still useful for me to explain why I've felt the way I have about his slot, but haven't been able to explain until recently due to the game being ongoing.

[chamber]

Meta, always a great scum hunting tool, right?
Someone put a link to BBT's signature please.

Meta is a useful tool. Not everyone uses it well.

[Dwlee99]

I understand that it can be used but can't people just change their meta? Or just not have a meta somehow?

[Untrod Tripod]

meta is trash

[catboi]

meta is trash

I'm aware of your opinion and I don't really care~

[chamber]

I understand that it can be used but can't people just change their meta? Or just not have a meta somehow?

If people could perfectly control how they played mafia wouldn't be much of a game.

[Dwlee99]

Welp, okay then.

[Xtoxm]

Oops, my bad. Thought i'd posted recently.

Anyway. I like catboi. And I like the points he raised about Yimmy.

Wanted to see how LLD approached Yimmy, looks like she's ignoring it. Shinobi denouncing the wagon is also encouraging. Only questionable vote he has is UT.

VOTE: Yimmy

[I_Am_Not_Varsoon]

[snip]

Where has shinobi been reasonable/had thoughts that match your own? Why do you lean town on xtoxm if you think he's deliberately avoiding engagement with the thread?


This was a decent reminder though that I should explain, my read on scorpious is based partly off meta of being scum with him in the (godawful) Pula Mafia, where he was generally horrific/awkward and seemed to have difficulty saying much of anything, and instead mostly asked a lot of passive questions. He was similarly bad in Space Mafia. By contrast he seemed to have put in some legitimate effort with his townplay in his newbie game. Which is why I liked him showing some fire and blowing up on LLD early, and his early reads list made it seem like he was trying and not just being a lump. Also, him being suspicious of vinkah makes sense from a persective where he'd just seen a scum player claim on page 1 and get a free pass for it. His fade since then bothered me because of the meta, there was some sense of purpose to the questions he's asked since but he really wasn't doing very much - that might be due to him flaking, though. Still would be unlikely to lynch the slot.

Without going through Shin's ISO:
I remember reading his ISO the first time and I remember liking his initial vote for Yimmy and wondering why I had not thought of it myself. He also was also one of the few people to push back against my early wagon which I thought was overzealous and unreasonable. I remember thinking his early read list made sense with a few caveats here and there. I dunno, I recognize that early impressions may be biasing my view on the guy, but unlike most people in this game, I have never really thought to myself, "where the fuck is that coming from."

Why? Do you not like Shin for some reason? Should I go dive back into his ISO? I feel like that would be a waste of my time right now compared to other things I could look into.

Also: I think meta is a fine tool, but like nearly every tool in mafia, it fails you sometimes. Your experiences with Scorpion are noted and I am updating my priors. He is definitely my fourth scum read rather than my third.

Pedit: that bring us to L-1, yeah?

[Xtoxm]

L-2, I think

[catboi]

That's L-1. Also I'm going to counter claim whatever role he claims~

I understand that it can be used but can't people just change their meta? Or just not have a meta somehow?

If people could perfectly control how they played mafia wouldn't be much of a game.

More or less this. I just don't think scorpious is a very strong scum player and has difficulty faking legitimate scumhunting.

Why? Do you not like Shin for some reason? Should I go dive back into his ISO? I feel like that would be a waste of my time right now compared to other things I could look into.

No, I just wanted you to explain your reasoning/give details, because the statement you made about him was vague.

[Shinobi]

That's L-1. Also I'm going to counter claim whatever role he claims~

No you aren't.

[Shinobi]

4 people are on his wagon and there are 11 alive so L-2 I believe.

VOTE: Yimmy

I think the reads list is less damning than what Catboi and Dwelee are implying but I did not really like Yimmy's day one in general. I don't know how scummy I think Yimmy's responses day 2 are (I don't really see him as "flailing" exactly), but this is pretty much another instance of Yimmy only posting when pushed. I think he would be a pretty good lynch at this point.

Sorry for not posting more, I guess. I am never that active on the weekends and I really don't have that much new to say. I have been reading along on my phone, however.

It's not town's thought process to not change reads based on logic that you apparently "like".

Did I say that I like the logic of his posts? All I am saying is that I think some of the conversation of Yimmy is overblown. His answers since the push have not been great but I also don't see how they are scummy aside from the fact that his post don't involve any real new analysis. I still think he is a solid scum read in general though.

Really Dwlee, I feel like you are not even processing the text of my post, but looking to find fault in it. I still think you are town, but try not to let your emotions on me (and other players) get in the way of analyzing people's posts.

@people not on the Yimmy wagon:
I don't understand the hesitance that people are showing in pressuring Yimmy's slot. Am I missing something? Is it just a gut reaction thing or perhaps worrying that we are just misreading an un-engaged player as scummy? Honestly, I maybe worry about that too, but not enough to not push the wagon along on the basis of weak posting and inconsistent analysis. I want to hear people's thought process there.

@Shin & Xtox in particular: Am I being dumb here somehow?

I want to hear from my main scum read LLD too of course. -w-

I have nothing wrong with pressure on Yimmy.
What annoys me is that he consistently does as little as possible. I was pressing him earlier and he came up with something that I thought was

mostly

okay but here I am again waiting for him to do things.

I think it's plausible that he can be town but his constant inactivity isn't helping matters.

[Shinobi]

Oops, my bad. Thought i'd posted recently.

Anyway. I like catboi. And I like the points he raised about Yimmy.

Wanted to see how LLD approached Yimmy, looks like she's ignoring it. Shinobi denouncing the wagon is also encouraging. Only questionable vote he has is UT.

VOTE: Yimmy

I can't hear you over all these mafia sounds.

[catboi]

That's L-1. Also I'm going to counter claim whatever role he claims~

No you aren't.

YOu are just a barrel of fun, you know that?

[ChannelDelibird]

"You know, Boyd... for a guy who supposedly changed, you sound an awful lot like you always did."

Vote Count 2.3

Yimmy

(5): catboi, Dwlee99, Untrod Tripod, !Varsoon, Xtoxm

Xtoxm

(2): chamber, Shinobi

Not voting (4): LLD, Scorpious, Yimmy, Vinkah

With 11 alive, it'll take 6 votes to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-10-02 16:26:00)

Scorpious has not picked up his prod and is also being replaced. Tell your friends!