Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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'Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun!' by A Simple Plan.
Day One.
I draw upon the words of Rocky Balboa for inspiration: "Mafiascum ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as a defeat. But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!".
BlueBloodedToffee, we meet again... again.
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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mykonian's posts look like they're trying to provoke players (I do not see the town-motivation?):
I also wanted to flag Hieirama's reaction. I feel like implosion was joking about a 'Dierfire + Hieirama scumteam' - but Hieirama's jumps in acting very serious/defensive:
In post 25, Hieirama wrote:In post 23, implosion wrote:Looks like a Dierfire + Hieirama scumteam. Now if only we can figure out the third...
You can build a scumread based on one post?
Dwlee99 gives out two (serious?) easy/early town-reads (I do not like people giving out easy/early town/scum reads):
In post 33, Dwlee99 wrote:. The first part was more about implosion and the second part is about you. Even though it was "Kind of a joke" I'm still town reading you. (especially for your last few posts)You asked about my town read on you and implosion
UNVOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
VOTE: Dwlee99-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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In post 37, mykonian wrote:Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town. There's no need for the word "honestly" there, it only makes sense from a point where scum is trying to think like town. The word "honestly" implies that he comes from a setting where he was prepared to lie this game, then found a situation where it wasn't necessary. Add to this that he'sstepping in to protect someone from an accusationand that little sentence becomes quite damning.Buddying and at the same timeshowing off his mindset is scummy.
So dwlee, are we out of rvs?
Gamr didn't call anyone/someone town though:
We were in RVS:who is the "someone" you think he called town/was trying to buddy up with/stepping in to protect?-
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In post 47, Dwlee99 wrote:Now now, you shouldn't make "easy random town/scum reads".
Myseperatepoints were:
- I thought implosion's comment about a "Dierfire + Hieirama scumteam" was not serious.
- I thought your 'easy' town reads of BlueBloodedToffee and implosion were serious.
I did not ignore implosion's post.-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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mykonian, did you answer my question (I did not understand the Garmr-"scumtell" observation"):
In post 45, Keyser Söze wrote:In post 37, mykonian wrote:Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town. There's no need for the word "honestly" there, it only makes sense from a point where scum is trying to think like town. The word "honestly" implies that he comes from a setting where he was prepared to lie this game, then found a situation where it wasn't necessary. Add to this that he'sstepping in to protect someone from an accusationand that little sentence becomes quite damning.Buddying and at the same timeshowing off his mindset is scummy.
So dwlee, are we out of rvs?
Gamr didn't call anyone/someone town though:
We were in RVS:who is the "someone" you think he called town/was trying to buddy up with/stepping in to protect?-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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In post 66, Dierfire wrote:DWL is Town and easy to lynch. Players voting DWL are therefore more likely to be Mafia.
UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Keyser
Why are you speaking in absolutes?
"DWL is Town"
DWL is "easy to lynch"
"Players voting DWL are therefore more likely to be Mafia"
I don't like this logic at all - it feels unnatural.-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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Explain to me the motivation in posting this?-
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In post 104, mykonian wrote:oi soze. Time to have some results, buddy. Some questions there are only there to have questions.
I would like answers to my questions.-
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In post 107, mykonian wrote:In post 85, mykonian wrote:"so he was in effect defending me."
"trying to call someone town"
I did that from memory, didn't use exact quotes. Effect is the same, conclusions as well.
You are just repeating yourself. Who is the "me", who is the "someone"....
My original question:
"We were in RVS: who is the "someone" you think he called town/was trying to buddy up with/stepping in to protect?"
Result: Your original accusation sounded forced with no evidence to back it up.-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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In post 110, mykonian wrote:In post 22, Lalendra wrote:In post 20, mykonian wrote:In post 18, herrcombs wrote:lolwut
I was just joking
but now that scumslip. This is actually interesting.
I'm clearly missing something. How is that a scum slip?
In post 24, Garmr wrote:Honestly don't see anything scummy so far
Think he skipped implosions post.
I understood"Honestly don't see anything scummy so far"as 'nothing onthis pageis out-right scummy so far', not 'that was not a scum-slip by herrcombs'.
If it was a geniune scum-slip by herrcombs (I am still uncomfortable with that exchange between Haschel Cedricson-herrcombs) do you think his scum-partner (Gamr) would jump in to defend herrcombs straight away?-
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In post 111, Dwlee99 wrote:Keyser, the accusation wasn't forced at all.
I think mykonian can defend himself...-
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In post 114, mykonian wrote:It would never work if herr's scum (since he'd be lying). They can't be buddies if the argument holds.
Ok - this changes my perspective on your earlier comment. I thought you scum-read herrcombs through your reachy-comment: "now that scumslip. This is actually interesting."
Unsure if the use of "honestly" is scum-indicative.
Looking at Garmr's ISO, I wanted to flag one post he made:
In post 96, Garmr wrote:Also you should quit before you burn youselfif there's a wagon between you and me your the one getting lynched.
Unsure if this scum-in-a-corner, or town - but it is both very defensive and a threat.-
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In post 115, mykonian wrote:so soze. You are still sitting on a dwlee vote. This seems outdated. Not saying you should vote garmr.But at least vote hier then who more or less claimed scum with her reply.
Scum-lean read on Hieirama.
By post 76, Hieirama posted an extensive positive/null/negative "vibes" list based on everyone's posts (reads based on posts <#67).
Why positive/negative "vibes" and arunning narrativeon events, why not call them town/scum reads? He only committed giving a "Slight Town-Lean" to herrcombs. Noted.
In post 76, Hieirama wrote:I'm still trying to comprehend what's going on… These quick reads and half-joking remarks are throwing me off.
I'll try anyway. No use for me if I just sit to the side.
"I'll try anyway. No use for me if I just sit to the side."- I am uncomfortable with this soliloquy, feels like this reads/vibes list has been tough work for Hieirama to express (and has maybe been posted a little too early).
VOTE: Hieirama-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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From our last game together, I've learn't a few things to improve my game...-
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In post 129, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Wanna explain your thought process behind this particular improvement?
On the lines of- if you find something uncomfortable about someone's posts, don't talk about itdo something about it, vote for that player. Put pressure on them early, not later. Explain my reads more clearly.-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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Look at the votes on my wagon:
OMGUS much...? Does Dwlee99 actually scum-read me?
In post 66, Dierfire wrote:DWL is Town and easy to lynch. Players voting DWL are therefore more likely to be Mafia.
UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Keyser
I feel this is a weak reason. I did not like how that sentence was constructed. "easy to lynch" - what part of Dwlee99's play iseasy to lynch? His vote on me had a logical fallacy feeling to it.
"Player A is easy to lynch, therefore Player B who voted for Player A is more likely scum"
Still waiting for Dierfire's comments.-
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I didn't read his use of "Honestly" as scum-indicative.
Post #96 I would flag:
"Also you should quit before you burn youself if there's a wagon between you and me your the one getting lynched."
This is a(hard to read as either anti-town or scummy) - I'm feeling this is either a real soft-PR claim (very defensive) or fake soft-PR claim (cornered-scum).firm "back-off" threat-
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In post 159, Dwlee99 wrote:Why does no one else think Keyser is scum? He manipulated my post and completely ignored all of my reasoning and just said "OMGUS".
Read my post 58.
Tone of implosion's scum reads: I read as NOT serious.
Tone of your town reads: I read as serious, you also stated you were serious.
To repeat, I did not ignore implosion's reads (I even flagged them in the very same post) neither did I ignore your reasoning. Different tone = different read.-
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In post 177, Garmr wrote:Tbh you can lynch me I'm not really an important power role just a bullet proof townie I was trying to draw attention to get someone to night kill me with a soft power role claim before but now I don't really care. My care factor for this game is zero. Because I didn't think anyone would be that retarded and mentally handicapped to follow with myko because of the word honestly.
Regarding Garmr's roleclaim:
I disagree with the 'Bulletproof Townie' role being "not really an important role" - it's a role a townie usually wouldn't full-claim (so that they attract the night-kill) - scum would already know he's town so now they won't target him at night - thus, to full role-claim at L-4 is anti-town/scummy.
However, Garmr has now set himself up for both an investigation and policy-lynch (scum would not have strong-motivation to do that).
In post 204, mykonian wrote:In post 199, implosion wrote:I'm particularly interested to see mykonian's take on the claim, incidentally.
I dislike that it was lead by a softclaim.
I call bullshit on his mention that he doesn't mind to be lynched: then what was the purpose of a claim there?
Yes, I had a null-read on his soft-claim because it was soft-claimunder pressure(very defensive town/very defensive scum)-
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In post 223, Dwlee99 wrote:What do you think of Keyser? (Yes I'm still on that)
I am on V/LA until Sunday evening.-
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Page 9, 10.
In post 224, Felissan wrote:I've definitely got a scum read on Garmr now,but I'll put it on the back burner for now- I'll wait for it to be really blatant before wanting him dead, we wouldn't want to lose a legit PR if it turns out we're wrong, even if it's just a BP.
If you have a scum-read on a player why would you back off? Gamr had already full-roleclaimed, so they'd be no risk of an early roleclaim. Pressure is good, expecially if you've "definitely got a scum read" on Gamr. But based on the second part of your sentence it sounds like you're doubting your own scum-read (so why 'put it on the back burner now'?).
Felissan:"my vote will go somewhere completely different"...Felissan then adds a 'pressure vote' on Hieirama..I don't believe Felissan's 'definite' scum read of Gamr
In post 232, Hieirama wrote:I use "policy lynch" incorrectly maybe? The way I see it is: This player's posts don't seem to have scum Motivation, but they're being toxic to the Town wincon. They're the best lynch until someone proves to be genuinely scummy.
At this stage it is always best to push/vote/lynch who you think is scum. A policy lynch is easy for both townand scumto support - thus, we don't gain as much information on the wagon (i.e we'd gain more from players actively pressing their scum-reads (with reasons)).
Scum don't actively try to be 'toxic to the Town wincon' - 9 times out 10 they are bad-town.
In post 232, Hieirama wrote:If Garmr is Town then I have a strong feeling that the wagon wasscum-driven, mainly because if how petty the original reason was. Could bethree Mafia, could beone.
Attach some names to this 'analysis'.-
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In post 285, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Umm, I don't know how you're getting a scum read from anything in this post? Why is positive/negative vibes scummy? Why is having only one lean-town read on page 4 scummy?
Why does his reads-list being 'tough' make him scum? Why isn't it newb-town who is struggling to get into the game?
My scum-lean was based on:
I feel scum are more inclined to force an early reads/"vibes" list - while town are more likely to be finding out their reads at that early stage - under no pressure to complete a descriptive narrative of each player. I think she has since ditched her summary vibe-analysis. "Having only one lean-town read on page 4" is not scum-indicative. But I think feeling the need to post a full reads/narrative/vibes list with your 4th post is something to flag.
Looking at her ISO since that vibes-list I cannot see Hieirama pro-actively scum-hunting (a passenger so far).
"This… is my 4th Fourm Mafia game…"- I will need to look how she scum-hunted/pressed her scum-reads in games 1 to 3.
In post 284, Dwlee99 wrote:Cause now I feel like Garmr's posts are townieand so I'm less sure of Garmr being scum. Gotta think.
Could you quote these "posts" - I would like to see your thought-process.-
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In post 313, Felissan wrote:I have a town read on BBT (gave a lot of effort catching up on the game, giving new points on old posts)
"Effort" can come from both town and scum - what actual "points" made you town-read BlueBloodedToffee?-
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I read through pistachi0n's ISO.
pistachi0n (13 posts) Scum-lean read
RVS votes on Dierfire and herrcombs: post 4, post 14
I have mixed feelings with post 123. pistachi0n votes Gamr. I disagree with his"chiming in RVS to say you don't see anything scummy when nobody prompted you is scummy"- I do not believe it is out-right scum-indicative.
"Vote in 72 was OMGUS-y"- I agree. It feels like pistachi0n is attacking Gamr's playstyle more than anything:"He hasn't posted a scumread based on anything other than OMGUS."(defensive/narrow-focus play / OMGUS can come from town and scum).
I agree with pistachi0n view that the use of "honestly" is not scum-indicative (post 175).
"Null/weak town": pistachi0n's now no longer scum-reads Gamr:"But I like his responses and how he's challenging the accusations against him"- I would like to see the responses pistachi0n liked. (I.e Why would only town 'challenge the accusations').
pistachi0n's now scum-reads Gamr:
In post 181, pistachi0n wrote:With the random bp claim I'm now more confident in my vote on Garmr.
"But I like his responses and how he's challenging the accusations against him" - in pistachi0n's previous statement now void?
Defending the Gamr wagon:
In post 225, pistachi0n wrote:@herrcombs--There are 4 votes. There need to be some votes to apply pressure, even early in the game. But nobody's rushing to instalynch. So what are you worried about?
This exchange of posts feels unnatural between pistachi0n and Hieirama :
In post 267, pistachi0n wrote:In post 266, Hieirama wrote:In post 260, pistachi0n wrote:In post 227, Hieirama wrote:It takes guts to stand up for players being wagoned.
No...it really doesn't.
I doubt a coward would do it.
Okay, fine, it either takes guts or it's scum who wants to gain town points.
Another change on his Gamr read:
In post 385, pistachi0n wrote:Garmr--I'm not as certain of my scumread as I was earlier, when he claimed it seemed like he was making an appeal to emotion but then he came back strong, I thought 242 and after were good.
It feels like pistachi0n is adjusting his read on Gamr to fit the general consensus.
I would like to see pistachi0n explain where Gamr "came back strong", and explain why post 242 was "good".
In post 385, pistachi0n wrote:Implosion--Weak scum,I still think the defense of Garmr was to try to get town points, whether or not Garmr is scum.
"Get town points" - this would only work if Gamr is town (or if pistachi0n believes/knows Gamr is town).
VOTE: pistachi0n-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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In post 395, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Keyser, did you finish catching up on the whole thread? Last I saw you were only up to p10?
I will have fully caught up by tonight.
In post 396, herrcombs wrote:pista was referring to myko here, not Garmr. His null/weak town read was on myko.
Thanks - therefore pistachi0n's readdid notchange as much as I first thought (from scum-read/voting to "not as certain of my scumread as I was earlier").
Moreover, my scum-lean read is'not as certain'of pistachi0n now
I'd still like to see evidence of the following though:
In post 393, Keyser Söze wrote:I would like to see pistachi0n explain where Gamr "came back strong", and explain why post 242 was "good".-
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In post 383, Hieirama wrote:In post 378, Keyser Söze wrote:Looking at her ISO since that vibes-list I cannot see Hieirama pro-actively scum-hunting (a passenger so far).
"This… is my 4th Fourm Mafia game…"- I will need to look how she scum-hunted/pressed her scum-reads in games 1 to 3.
My main account's name is "Carcalilly", if you'd like to search that up.
I looked up one of your old newbie games (it's finished) - in it you found it hard to put labels or firm town/scum reads on players. You also did not engage in much direct scum-hunting in that game either (asking players questions, looking at wagons...) - this could be your newb-town-meta. You have a playstyle that aims not to offend - which may stop you from pressing someone you find suspicious. But it can be easily newb-scum-play too (not committing to a read to not provoke attention).
Hieirama:"I usually don't cast votes until I have evidence I'm content with"- I need to seeyouactively looking for "evidence".
Hieirama - Null read.-
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In post 422, pistachi0n wrote:I am a vanilla townie,I'm an easy mislynch, so be sure to look at my wagon tomorrow. Especiallypeoplewho jumped on after my reads list like they needed the go-ahead to vote me.
What makes it "easy"?
Who are the "people"?
Here is your wagon: pistachi0n (6): herrcombs, implosion, BlueBloodedToffee, Keyser Söze, mykonian, Dierfire-
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In post 441, mykonian wrote:Reread a bit and you can disagree with me here, but I don't think implosion was killed for his suspicions. He kept his reads close and given that feli's slot is the one replaced, I don't think that person gets a major say in the NK straight away. He came back on his dier read and anyway that's a common one. I think someone saw a pr tell there or scum had other motives with their kill.
"I don't think implosion was killed for his suspicions"- he was probably NK'd because scum thought he had a town PR / actively pro-town.
"He kept his reads close"- I disagree, implosion was very open giving their town/scum reads on D1. Looking at implosion's ISO:
Town-reads
(Dwlee99, BlueBloodedToffee, Garmr, Hieirama, mykonian, herrcombs, Dierfire)
In post 50, implosion wrote:Dwlee is probably town.
In post 50, implosion wrote:BBT is more weakly town.
In post 97, implosion wrote:In post 96, Garmr wrote:Also you should quit before you burn youself if there's a wagon between you and me your the one getting lynched.
This feels town.
In post 98, implosion wrote:As does Dwlee's indictment of the myko wagon.
In post 182, implosion wrote:Also don't think Hiei is scum.
In post 184, implosion wrote:Garmr is like 99% town.
In post 189, implosion wrote:I think my working theory about this game is that the game so far has been largely driven by a pair of town wagons (Garmr, myko).
In post 191, implosion wrote:I also think I like herrcombs and Dierfire as town.
Scum-reads
(Hieirama, Felissan, pistachi0n, Dierfire)
In post 50, implosion wrote:Hiei is very slightly scummy for their opening post and subsequent reaction, but it's pretty insignificant.
In post 50, implosion wrote:
VOTE: Felissan
"I just don't get a townvibe from you" after a vote feels like appeasement + a psychological desire not to commit to the read.
In post 189, implosion wrote:I think my main interests in scumhunting at the moment lie in Felissan and pistachi0n.
In post 317, implosion wrote:Yeah, you can actually ignore my townread on Dier.
implosion was very much against the Gamr lynch. He was implosion's strongest town-read. implosion did a 180 on his town-read of Dierfire, and concentrated most of his scum-hunting on Felissan and pistachi0n.
Furthermore, scum NK because they think that player has a PR, not because they're trying to set up a miss-lynch for D2 - so we can't read too much into implosion's reads, but they useful information.-
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In post 502, Garmr wrote:hey keysor what do you think of the wagon that has put me on L-2 specifically lala and the fillis replacement.
I am going to look at pistachi0n's D1 lynch-wagon first (votes/reasons and those whodidn'tcomment on it).
I am surprised if you are on L-2, but will catch-up now.-
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Looking at pistachi0n's lynch wagon (votes/reasons) -herrcombs, implosion, BlueBloodedToffee, Keyser Söze, mykonian, Dierfire, Garmr.
In post 374, herrcombs wrote:I'm going to VOTE: pistachi0n.
In your past few posts, it looks like you're not really trying to engage in fruitful discussion. I want to see some reads from you or something that looks like you're trying to figure out the game.
This vote feels like a push-to-action vote. Both scum or bad-town may not "engage in fruitful discussion", but I like this vote by herrcombs.
BlueBloodedToffee was happy with this D1 wagon. Reason for scum-read? Scummy 'reads-list and vote':
In post 386, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Above reads-list and vote is pretty bad. Pistachion, why did you include those people only in your reads?
My vote/Scum-lean read was based on i) pistachi0n scum-reading play-style/not content ii) I was uncomfortable with his exchange of posts with Hieirama (who I did not town-read) iii) his shift of read on Gamr (was Gamr a viable wagon anymore?) iv) pistachi0n on implosion:"I still think the defense of Garmr was to try to get town points, whether or not Garmr is scum"- this sentence did not work if Gamr = scum.
Scum-read/found scum-tells in Gamr's play majority of D1 - I felt this was where his 'mouth' was..Need to see why/where mykonian scum-read Pistachion
In post 406, Dierfire wrote:Pistachion's reads were somewhat superficial and certainly selective. In the face of previous lack of content that felt more intentional to me (dropping in for a line or two every now and again but not really engaging in meaningful dialogue--335 is a good example of jumping in briefly and then disappearing for another day), I think that it's enough for a vote.
UNVOTE: Hieirama
VOTE: Pistachi0n
Keyser's review also narrowed in on Pistachion quickly. I'd like to see a more complete review from him.
'superficial' reads and lack of content/pro-town dialogue with other players.
Previous thoughts about wagon:"I have nothing against a pisca lynch. I am in rush to end the day through."
Reason (?).
.I need to see why/where Gamr scum-read Pistachion
Looking back at that wagon I am not comfortable with mykonian or Garmr's votes.-
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In post 445, Dierfire wrote:Hieirama seemed to be stalling and intentionally not giving opinions.
Good observation - but I had a null-read on this on D1 - it could be both newb-scum or newb-town. It's basically bad for town not to express reads though. However, I think scum-Hieirama would have adjusted her game-style to avoid attention.
In post 453, mykonian wrote:yeah actually fuck that dier vote. Look at yesterday and tell me garmr isn't obvious scum. I'm stuck in that tunnel for good reasons. He didn't achieve anything but somehow does want to hammer.Lives on a badly executed fakeclaim.
"Execution" poor/anti-town, agreed. But does the bad execution effect thelegitimacyof the claim?
In post 456, mykonian wrote:
not my place to do. Nothing stands out to me, he doesn't really stand out.If Dier is in your blind spot, why are you doing nothing about it?
Can you explain this? You want focus on Dierfire but you do not want to personally look at him?
In post 462, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Keyser's ISO analysis feels like a stretch and I don't care for BBT's 399 at all.
Why did you not call it a "stretch" on D1?-
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In post 466, Meanmelter wrote:#182 I dont think his post is very town. It just draws off attention for the mafia to find someone else to nightkill. Unless he really is a different power role.
Good point - it is anti-town to draw attention off himself at night if Gamrisbulletproof. I don't think Gamr would false-claim if town (because he could risk a counter-claim). Mafia (hiding role) or Bulletproof Townie for me (his play invites attention/investigations).
Agreed - the soft-to-hard bulletproof roleclaim followed by the hammer without the scum-read explanation is a nightmare D1. But would scum-Gamr self-destruct like this? I will need to re-look at my D1 town-lean read of Gamr.In post 466, Meanmelter wrote:You've done nothing at all productive for the town the entire game. You went from AFK one line posts to softclaiming out of no where and then hardclaiming thinking it was gonna somehow be useful for the town.
In post 470, Garmr wrote:the person who was town reading me the most dies.
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In post 478, Haschel Cedricson wrote:In post 477, Hieirama wrote:
I agree, that went by way too fast. It could mainly be because our time was running out.
That's some hard-hitting analysis there. Which votes on the wagon do you not like and why?
Also, if you think it went by too fast, why didn't you say anything when it was actually happening? Why resign yourself to "Well, the day will probably end soon?"
Not a fan of Haschel Cedricson aggression here but he asks some good questions: yes, it's easy to give retrospective views/opposition to past wagons/miss-lynches. Your opinions should be posted and your questions should be asked at the right time (and not a day late). We need to see/hear about the votes Hieirama does not like.
In post 485, Hieirama wrote:In post 406, Dierfire wrote:Keyser's review also narrowed in on Pistachion quickly. I'd like to see a more complete review from him.
And then he questions Keyser's reasons for his vote? Keyser's reasons were better than his imo.
Hmm... I'm starting to get why people aren't liking Dier...
I did flag Dierfire's post in my head at the time (did my 'narrow down' effect his read on Pistachion? It was a strange comment to add when joining a wagon), but his'I'd like to see a more complete review from him'comment about me was fair.
A good summary post from herrcombs RE: Gamr. (post 505) I share his feelings regarding Gamr. (Need to see Gamr to start finding scum and not defending his D1 play-style choices: the best way to defend yourself is through scum-hunting. Most of his D2 posts have been about other people's scum-read of him, or posts about his own wagon.)
In post 509, Meanmelter wrote:I'm not trying to shove that under a rug at all. I thought you and Myko could be the scum team. And to me, it looks like you guys still can be.
Struggling to see a Mykonian-Gamr scum-team. They are either town-town or one scum-one town. A hard-tunnel on eachother would be too much of a risky play for D1. The two players whose play has attracted the most attention:
- Mykonian's running/non-stop commentary with many prodding/pushing posts for wagonshewants: I will town-lean read his openness/honesty.
- Gamr's bulletproof-roleclaim gameplan gone wrong: I am struggling to see his scum-motivation in being so openly ok with the choices he has made. I don't feel like he has held his hand up and admitted his D1 play was anti-town - which I feel like is possibly going against him (influencing other people's reads on him).
Going to look at Lalendra and Haschel Cedricson ISO's next - two players I neither have a town or scum read of. I have played with Haschel Cedricson before (in that mini-normal he grabbed the game by the balls and scum-huntedhard, but he has been notably quiet this game (17 posts).-
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Haschel Cedricson ISO:
I still don't fully understand this RVS vote (reaction test?). Please explain.
Lot's of early scum-reading in post 246, but no votes ():will Haschel Cedricson follow up with any of these suspicions?
(On Dwlee99)In post 246, Haschel Cedricson wrote:This is a horrible misrepresentation.
(On herrcombs)In post 246, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Don't like this one bit.
(On Hieirama)In post 246, Haschel Cedricson wrote:This is scummy.
(On me and Gamr)In post 246, Haschel Cedricson wrote:I don't like Keyser's rolefishing or the fact that Garmr bites on it.
In post 261, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Second, doesn't lynching anti-town instead of scum screw over the town by compunding things even more?
I agree with this point - never lynch someone you think is an 'anti-town' townie. Only lynch who you think is scum.
Town-reads Dierfire's post (post 334).
Votes Lalendra.
States his town-reads on Dierfire and Mykonian: post 462.
Scum-reading Hieirama and Lalendra.
In post 462, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Keyser's ISO analysis feels like a stretch and I don't care for BBT's 399 at all.
Will Haschel Cedricson press me?
Focus still on Hieirama and Lalendra: post 478, post 483, post 518.
Haschel Cedricson (18 posts) Null scum-lean
Uncomfortable with Haschel Cedricson's scum-hunting style this game. Points out scummy behaviour, but not putting equal pressure on ALL his scum-reads/suspicions (I feel like he should have grilled everyone who he found suspicious in post 246).
VOTE: Haschel Cedricson-
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Lalendra ISO:
It took Lalendra 8 posts until she started analysing posts (post 259).
Calls Mykonian the "scummiest town" and unvotes him
Scum-reads Hieirama:
In post 259, Lalendra wrote:Hieirama – 76 seems likefeigned scumhunting, as pointed out by herrcombs in 169. Could just be noobtown, someone who is trying to figure things out but not really sure where to go, but reads more likenoobscum.
I will flag Lalendra's vote on Gamr:
In post 259, Lalendra wrote:I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr
I disagree with trying to lynch someone you think is an anti-town townie - I see scum-motivation in supporting an 'easy lynch'.
Lalendra unvotes:"since Garmr no longer seems like he's just going to mail it in the rest of the game, UNVOTE: Garmr I guess."
Town-reads Dwlee99:"I agree that Dwlee is town".
Her read of Dierfire is interesting:
In post 306, Lalendra wrote:There is a lot of ambivalent wording in Dier's posts – “I could see that coming from mafia,” “not a particularly strong case but not a particularly weak one,” “I could see that from mafia,” etc. - which I know a lot of people see as scummy, but I don't necessarily think that's alignment-indicative. There are plenty of people who tend to be wishy-washy as either alignment. The fact that he has only posted 12 times in 112 pages is definitely problematic, I feel like he’s just sort of jumping in with opportunistic votes. While I don’t particularly like his play this game,I’m not confident in reading him as scum, because he does have a few good posts where he genuinely seems to be trying to sort the game, but I wish he would post more.
This feels like a mixed read (where Lalendra will be able to both town or scum read Dierfire later).
Diefire now becomes a potential lynch:
In post 312, Lalendra wrote:I would still prefer to lynch Garmr butI would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.
Felissan also flags this contradiction. Possible back-tracking here:
In post 315, Lalendra wrote:In post 313, Felissan wrote:
PEdit:Lalendra wrote:I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.
Did I just read that right? I don't see how you would agree with a lynch on someone you don't have an opinion on...
I want to put pressure on him to get information. Sorry I wasn't clear.
Votes Dierfire (post 377) - thus, no longer "undecided".
Possible opportunistic set-up here, opening up to the pistachi0n wagon (where was Lalendra's previous scum-read of pistachi0n?):
In post 415, Lalendra wrote:Keeping up with the game,not opposed to the pistachi0 lynchbut I don't want to vote until we have an official VC. I think BBT's point is legit, we won't learn much more going in circles like this, and the Dier wagon isn't going anywhere.
In post 497, Lalendra wrote:Honestly I wasn't a fan of pistachio before the flip, so I can't really disagree with anyone voting for him.
Need to see evidence for this.
In post 568, Lalendra wrote:In post 562, Garmr wrote:If people look at my scum meta I should be like confirmed town at this point
The fact that you keep pointing out how town your meta is makes me think that you are analyzing the crap out of it and only scum would need to do that.
I agree with the theory here though - Yes, using town-meta tells to defend yourself is bad-town/scummy.
Lalendra (34 posts) Scum-lean
Her actions seemed to contradict her mixed scum-read on Dierfire. Hinted scum-reading pistachi0n D1, but could not see it in her ISO (but stated her support [was not on the pistachi0n miss-lynch wagon]).-
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In post 580, Garmr wrote:about time myko starts looking at other players than me instead mof focusing on me the entire game and ignoring everyone else.
You need to stop focusing on yourself too-
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In post 576, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:A few things really pinged me on this page - the back end of the pistachion wagon grew very quickly. I feel very good thatwe have at least one, maybe two, scum in Keyser, Myko, Dier and Garmr. < This is today's lynch pool.
"This is today's lynch pool"- I will flag that line as scummy. Why are you lining-up today's lynch-pool based on the D1 miss-lynch wagon?
It's either a lazy town, or lazy scum suggestion.
Why do you think the other 2 votes on that wagon had 'town-motivation' and possibly up to 2 of those 4 votes you highlighted had 'scum-motivation'?
In post 576, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Keyser, why did you choose to ISO Hieirama in 424 instead of continuing your catch up? Especially an ISO that resulted in a null read - seems strange, like, what was the point of that post?
My read on Hieirama was part of my catch-up. My early read on Hieirama was scum-lean. The more posts I have read since my first 'interaction' with her I'm believing the sincerity in hersoft-scumhunting more. She is still not a town-read though. From her posts I still don't get a sense of the players she thinks are scum. Town's focus should be:find scum. Scum's focus:don't look scummy. I don't know if RL is holding back her activity
What is wrong in posting my read of Hieirama? Do you agree/disagree with my concerns?-
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In post 592, Meanmelter wrote:I just personally have not seen too much convincing evidence against my hypothesis. But there isn't much for it either. It is mostly their D1 aggression towards each other and this post does not sit with me too well -> XXX
In my original post I was thinking he was merely reaction fishing but he has yet to ever really comeback on it. And that's just the one thing giving me a feeling for the idea. Again, not very convincing.
@Keyser Söze: How would you feel if D1 Myko tunneled Garmr? Or perhaps, if Myko started tunneling Garmr D2? Would either change your stance on your opinion on the scum-team hypothesis?
I'm unsure of your question - mykonianhasbeen tunneling Gamr since D1 (or you may have misunderstood what I said?).
mykonian's posts about/to Gamr on Day One
mykonian accuses Gamr of an early scum-tell:
In post 37, mykonian wrote:Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town. There's no need for the word "honestly" there, it only makes sense from a point where scum is trying to think like town. The word "honestly" implies that he comes from a setting where he was prepared to lie this game, then found a situation where it wasn't necessary. Add to this that he's stepping in to protect someone from an accusation and that little sentence becomes quite damning. Buddying and at the same time showing off his mindset is scummy.
mykonian votes for Gamr:
mykonian states "Garmr is scum":
In post 103, mykonian wrote:Garmr has mainly defensive posts and has only argued against me, tacks his vote on the wagon. Garmr is scum.
mykonian explaining why Gamr's use of "honestly" is scummy:
In post 114, mykonian wrote:The keyword "honestly" is him stepping out of his role and coming with an opinion that he can see is true. So he comes from the mindset where he has to lie (as scum), then finds a situation where it isn't necessary. Herr's town and got falsely accused, garmr comments on it and shows his hand.
It would never work if herr's scum (since he'd be lying). They can't be buddies if the argument holds.
And even if you don't care about the motivation stuff, just look at garmr's overall posting. This is not the only passive post, the only aggression is pushing back against me. Garmr hasn't shown any initiative this game, has posted a couple of defensive posts.
mykonian sounds firm on Gamr scum-read:
In post 160, mykonian wrote:I am pretty sure that sentence is garmr thinking he's in the winning position as long as I push against him, since people voted me for it. A high postcount isn't always beneficial for one's survival.So don't think garmr thinks he can get me off him, I think he believes he can get me lynched.
mykonian does not believe Gamr's soft-to-hard roleclaim (questions Gamr's motivation): post 204
mykonian still wants to lynch Gamr:
In post 208, mykonian wrote:yup. We should lynch him.
mykonian encourages herrcombs to join him on Gamr's wagon (Gamr was L-3): post 218
In post 230, mykonian wrote:I do have a policy of lynching people I think scum.
Hieirama's read on Gamr affects mykonian's read on Gamr:
In post 249, mykonian wrote:The thing that's really throwing me for a loop here is hier's view of the garmr's case.
mykonian comments on Gamr's playstyle (but not his scum-motivation): post 253
mykonian insists that BlueBloodedToffee look at Gamr:
In post 310, mykonian wrote:Not quite sure why you are letting garmr off after a poorly executed fakeclaim and half a case on a (former) lurker.
After that, nothing changed, his posting is still very defensive. Just do a count of his posts, which of them is actually interested in the people around him.
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Then mykonian joins the pistachi0n wagon late (Gamr was not getting lynched D1):
In post 391, mykonian wrote:yup, I could follow that vote.
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Day Two
mykonian is right back on the Gamr tunnel:
In post 452, mykonian wrote:Garmr should die a fiery death as well. Dier is in my blind spot, can't complain.vote garmr.
In post 535, mykonian wrote:Garmr is a fine wagon obv.
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I still can't see mykonian-Gamr as scum-scum (serious hard-bussing/scum-reading) - moreover, expecially when Gamr had a wagon formed on D1 and D2.-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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In post 612, Hieirama wrote:Fgs I triggered the defense tell again?
//tiny rant
I'm going to defend people until they give me a reason not to.
People sometimes don't defend players because they're scared of being called out for it... Or they're wrong...
But defending has benefits: could prevent a mislynch if it's right, gives a lot of information to look into if they sometime flip, and it brings counterarguments.
All arguments need to be put forward. Otherwise scum can just drive the main argument if it's in their favor because no one dares to go against the main argument.
I like this post from Hieirama - this is her most 'confident' stand on her opinion so far, with her logic clearly expressed.
In post 612, Hieirama wrote:Also that would be terrible scum play. If Garmr was actually a PR then Scum should try to get him lynched, not keep him alive. :/
This is a valid point - Hieirama has highlighted possible scum-motivation.
In post 612, Hieirama wrote:@p-edit: Votes aren't as alignment indicative as presented evidence is.You should analyze their argument rather then their vote.
What are your current thoughts on theargumentson Lalendra?
In post 610, Hieirama wrote:In post 607, Dierfire wrote:If you're reading Garmr as Town, then do you think that people voting for him are more likely to be Mafia?
EhhI can see one consisting in there, but I'm not too positive since like almost everyone scumreads him. >_>
I think it's the evidence that they put up is more alignment indicative then the fact if they're voting or not.
Hieirama has highlighted scum-motivation in wanting to lynch Gamr, but has still yet to support her posts with a vote..I will flag this fence-sitting-
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In post 667, Lalendra wrote:Okay, if I'm at L-1 then I guess it's claim time, before Garmr lolhammers again. I'm Town Doctor - can protect one player each night from a NK.
Could be a caught-scum-tactic to out the doctor - but as no one has counter-claimed: UNVOTE: Lalendra
(There are usually a cop and a doctor in mini-games so I am inclined to believe the claim).-
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In post 682, Haschel Cedricson wrote:It seems to me the question is if we think a doctor and a bulletproof townie would both be in the same game.
They are two different roles. One ACTIVE protective PR and one PASSIVE protective PR - why don't you think we could have both?
Do you believe both claims (with no counter-claims)?-
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In post 724, Lalendra wrote:To be clear, I am still voting garmr. However if the Dier wagon picks up steam,I will gladly sheep the fk out of it, because I am happy lynching either.
In post 725, Garmr wrote:Her past two post look pretty opportunistic to me
Post 724 actually made me laugh as I thought it was exactly something scum would be thinking, but too afraid to verbalize in the thread It's a bold/'honest' post from Lalendra - that scum wouldn't usually make in her position.-
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In post 634, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I'm finally caught up - I think we need to lynch one of Haschel or Dier today and I have a strong preference for Dier.
Would also lynch Keyser.
His strongest scum-read is Dierfire, but I have not seen much interactions between BlueBloodedToffee and Dierfire. Town-BlueBloodedToffee would usually lock horns with his scum-read. Here, BlueBloodedToffee is basically only posting 'I want Dierfire lynched' without adding any ammunition (talking AROUND Dierfire, not directly AT Dierfire):
In post 714, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:OK, so are we lynching Dier yet?
In post 625, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Second part, I'm confused as to why you're not voting Dier?
In post 643, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I can assure you I'm not moving off of Dier.
In post 641, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:My lynch preference would be Dier > Haschel > Lalendra. I liked your case and I agree that Lalendra is scummy, I just really don't like that Dier joined that wagon when he did.
In post 639, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I will continue to push for Dier.
In post 448, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Let's talk. Thoughts on Dier and Mykonian?
In post 305, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Can I get your thoughts on Dier please?
In post 342, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:What are your thoughts on Dier?
I do not believe the sincerity of BlueBloodedToffee's scum-read - is he scum-reading Dierfire for meta-reasons?
In post 287, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I'm not seeing the Dier town read - talk to me about it. Everything he is posting feels off to me andI can usually read Dier as town pretty quickly.
In post 337, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I think I can read you pretty well, yeah. I usually town read you quite early, we both know this, I can't be bothered to go game searching.This is not town Dier.
In post 624, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Why do you think this is?I don't think you've ever shown much difficulty in working me out before.
BlueBloodedToffee is now on my uncomfortable list.-
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In post 664, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Did a quick skim. A Lalendra vote is exactly the sort of thing I can get behind.Vote: Lalendra.Wouldn't mind a Hieirama lynch either.
Is a Hieirama vote "exactly the sort of thing [you] can get behind too?"
I need to see some consistency.-
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Could you quote Dierfire's posts regardingthesecomments:
In post 723, Lalendra wrote:I reread Dierfire's ISO and I'm back to FOS'ing him. He asks a lot of questions of other people,
butoffers very little of his own opinions;
it seems like he is just mostly fence-sitting,
and offering very wishy-washy opinions, like he's trying to maintain distance from his reads in case he's wrong. I don't get the impression that it's just overly-cautious town play. I'd be comfortable with lynching him today.-
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In post 745, herrcombs wrote:I'd pick Haschel. It seems like he's popping in this game every so often only to take little prods at people without building serious reads or analyzing the game to any degree of depth.
I was uncomfortable with the timing of his vote:
Post 616, promises to catch-up:
In post 616, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Hey, I've been busy getting my own game off the ground. I'll get caught up tomorrow, I promise. Might even vote!
Post 664, Haschel Cedricson does not post a 'catch-up' analysis, just states he has made a "quick skim":
In post 664, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Did a quick skim. A Lalendra vote is exactly the sort of thing I can get behind.Vote: Lalendra. Wouldn't mind a Hieirama lynch either.
[I believe Haschel Cedricson's vote put Lalendra to L-1: I no longer think Haschel Cedricson-Lalendra are scum-scum] Since Lalendra's roleclaim, Haschel Cedricson has not pressed the player he was also happy to "lynch" (Hieirama).
VOTE: Haschel Cedricson-
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In post 757, mykonian wrote:In post 734, Keyser Söze wrote:BlueBloodedToffee is now on my uncomfortable list.
only now?
I have different levels of 'uncomfortableness'.
BlueBloodedToffee's"This is today's lynch pool"post was the turning point.-
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In post 776, Haschel Cedricson wrote:I'll try to get something done tonight, but no promises;my computer keeps grinding to a halt.
1 day to deadline - still waiting on Haschel Cedricson's input.
RE: Lalendra - I will re-look at Lalendra's ISO. The only thing that made me unvote was her roleclaim.-
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Keyser Söze Jack of All Trades
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In post 917, A Simple Plan wrote:Haschel Cedricson was lynched. He was
Greetings, Haschel Cedricson!
You are aMafia Goon.
Expelliarmus Mafiosa!
Day 3
Let's look at:
- Haschel Cedricson's wagon
- BlueBloodedToffee town/scum reads-
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In post 918, A Simple Plan wrote:BlueBloodedToffee was killed. He was
Greetings, BlueBloodedToffee!
You are aTown Mason. In addition to your vote, you have the following abilities.
- You may communicate during Pregame and at night in your Private Topic.
You win if all threats to the town have been eliminated.
I would recommend the other town mason not role-claiming until later. As soon as you claim you will basically be confirmed as town (thus, likely a NK).