Newbie 1656 : Game Over

[SilverWolf]

@Ether: He's thoroughly reading, asking questions, trying to stir people up, actively scumhunting when he's here. It's not a high standard, but he clears the bar easily and then some. Also, he straight-up shot down my request for a readslist. I don't really see newer Scum feeling confident enough to do that so directly.

This is coming from someone telling everyone in the game who says anything about the effort I put in as effort is not indicative of alignment saying that OceanWind is putting in good effort.

Coming from the same person who refuses to read me because she's been wrong on me so many times, then talks about how I'm complicated, then says she would be willing to wagon me but doesn't want to deal with it right now.

Who is giving out townreads like their candy on Halloween night with almost no good reasoning.

GM's behavior this game has been bad and she's likely scum. Probably with MoosyDoosy.

Also, to elaborate on this, MoosyDoosy is scum for tunnelling LoHa all day, then saying I'm his scumpartner based on weak associatives, then when asked by multiple people why he's good with my lynch when he was townreading me, and me having to vote him and still having to be pushed, he finally said it was something Ocean said which was a long time ago and he hadn't posted in days. Then saying I'm waffling which is bunk. Prove it then. When I push him he also said he was fine not playing which is weird as well. Why no fight?

[SilverWolf]

scumhunting =/= effort

srsly

You have been ignoring my scumhunting though haven't you? Don't think I haven't noticed the way you've decided to deal with me this game. And now, you are doing exactly what I predicted and setting up a scumread on me.

Funny how that works. You know I am hard on people who scumread me when I'm town. As scum you would not want to deal with that. You'd rather set me up as a lynch or ignore me.

I'd be pretty surprised if you were town this game.

[Sakura Hana]

386 (Sakura) - Why does Sakura's townflip preclude you from attacking GoodMorning? It seems like your issue with GoodMorning is that her townread on Sakura was based on weak reasoning. Couldn't she have been whiteknighting Sakura and calling her town knowing that she's town? Why does it necessitate that they be mafia together?

I think this was supposed to be directed at Ether XD

[Sakura Hana]

Also I'm liking SilverWolf's points on GM's selective scumhunting, more GM votes pls.

[OceanWind]

Pages 21-23

504 (MoosyDoosy) - I'm not sure what you mean by stopping the other players pointing fingers at each other. It seems that most of your posts have been accusations of LoHa and you are taking the side of the person pushing him at various points.

505 (GoodMorning) - Why is MoosyDoosy's preceding post "painfully town?"

513 (LoHa) - I'm leaning town on the claim and crumb. He'd need to have planned this well in advance if he were mafia. I also don't agree with Ether on there being no counterclaims. Lynching mafia on D1 is well worth outing a PR.

525 (Ether) - I had the opposite reaction to LoHa's claim. Explain please. I don't like your attitude of wanting to lynch the newbies because you think LoHa would have been coached and I think you are putting far too much emphasis on coaching and its effects. If I were mafia with someone who doesn't know how to play the game, I'd coach them plenty. Even then, there's no telling how much of the coaching a new player will take into account. To some extent, it is okay to lynch someone who's mafia with LoHa but your method of POE is remarkably crude.

546 (Ether) - So, what does someone who look like they are being coached play like? There's a limit to a player's skill that they can't improve beyond just by having daytalk with an experienced partner. If you are simply saying, "he's too bad to be someone that's coached" that's surface-level reasoning.

556 (GoodMorning) - Why is your vote going back on LoHa? I've asked for Ether's reasoning which isn't very clear to me and I want yours as well.

568 (Ether) - Okay, what makes MightyMandarin mafia? Of all the players, I found him to be the easiest to read as town because he's genuinely trying to piece together the game and read and re-read to get reads despite the fact that he's struggling. Then there's his paranoia which is a feature of new town much more than new mafia.

---

I'm burnt out so I'll do the rest tomorrow or I'll wait a couple of hours and finish tonight. Sakura, why don't you like my "time-warp?" I'm catching up from where I last left off but I'm taking into account things that stand out to me in preview edits.

[OceanWind]

Pages 24-28 (Current)

620 (MoosyDoosy) - I had the opposite impression of SilverWolf. At first, I found her omgus of me scummy but as I started reading through the thread, I could follow along with her thought process more easily than anyone else. I don't understand your unnatural tunnel of LoHa at all. You are so focused in on him and once he claims, your next move is to start looking at associatives which aren't even that strong as you are just looking to see who didn't push the wagon which is a pretty surface level associative tell. I'm not ruling out an early bus with you/LoHa either.

621 (MoosyDoosy) - I thought your case was entirely associative but now you are putting forth the possibility that SilverWolf is mafia even if LoHa is town, why? If LoHa is town, then you've wrongly tunneled on a townie for most of the game and are calling people mafia because you are so sure in your scumread that you can't understand why someone would disagree with you so they have to be mafia?

623 (MoosyDoosy) - I thought you disagreed with me entirely on my scumread of SilverWolf so why are you now referring to my read to back up yours? Which parts of my case did you agree with?

626 (GoodMorning) - Why don't you like the way the wagon is moving towards Moosy? Can you articulate why you have him as town? It reads like you are either whiteknighting or protecting a buddy neither of which I like.

633 (Ether) - You vote me for "process of elimination." Let's be clear: this poe consists of scumreading LoHa regardless of the fact that he wasn't cc'd, clearing GoodMorning, SilverWolf, Sakura Hana and yourself because LoHa doesn't look coached. Then townreading MoosyDoosy for reasons you can't articulate. That still apparently leaves lordj and mightymandarin who you could "sort of go with" but prefer me? The more I read your posts, the more you're losing me and I can't follow your recent logic despite your earlier posts looking town to me and there's just some enigmatic vibes that you keep throwing out that are confusing.

641 (GoodMorning) - You are putting off reading multiple people that it looks like you are just hanging back and coasting. We're all here to play mafia so I don't get why aren't even attempting to get a read on them in the first place.

643 (Ether) - Who warned you that GoodMorning is hard to read? Can I PM them and verify that they did indeed say this since it was before the game started? I don't think I follow your Moosy read. If he was under the radar, why don't want to bring him into the spotlight then? I don't think I'm wrong about how to treat a BP claim. I prefer having flipped mafia as early as possible to improve scumhunting in general. All of my questions are important except the ones you've already answered.

644 (GoodMorning) - Why would questioning the validity of my case hurt your ability to read others if they've already responded to my case? SilverWolf and Ether had both had chances to make unadulterated responses so I'd expect that if you were town, you'd have some sort of questions or comments and would try to read me that way. But you sort of avoided it saying "nothing to do with me so Ima ignore this post and let the argument with Ocean/Silver stew."

646 (GoodMorning) - What do you mean you are afraid of what you might find if you try to read Silver harder?

666 (Ether) - That's rather unfair. I didn't post when my internet became spotty and stopped working but now that it's fine, I'm back and I think I've been doing a pretty thorough job of going through the game. I don't give a crap how you read me. That's your problem, not mine. If you want advice though, I'd recommed engaging my posts and responding to them which will get you a lot further than complaining that you can't read me. How have I been in the background or provided "safe" content? My content is long and wordy I agree but that's how I post and I make no apologies for posting a lot.

667 (GoodMorning) - That's kind of a lame reason to townread me and I have played as mafia lots of times FYI.

669 (There) - More complaints about how I'm posting too much content and I'm hard to read. Seriously though, what are you actually expecting here? It looks like you are throwing nonsense at me to try to rile me up. It won't work, I play a logic based game and the best way to read me is to actually read what I write.

672 (GoodMorning) - How am I trying to stir you up?

[OceanWind]

I've caught up. My scumreads are GoodMorning and MoosyDoosy. I'll go with GoodMorning because I could see her either defending a partner or whiteknighting a townie and there was also a moment early on in the game where MoosyDoosy looked like he was trying to figure things out but I found no reason to think GoodMorning is town. Lordj is another player that I think could be scum if it isn't GoodMorning or MoosyDoosy as there are several problems I have with his posts.

UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: GoodMorning

SilverWolf is interestingly enough one of my strongest townreads. While I found her scummy at first, the more I read through the game, the more I found myself either agreeing with her points or wanting to say something that she beat me to it. MightyMandarin and Sakura Hana are my other townreads. My Ether townread took a hit considering my difficulty in following along with any of her logic or reasoning but I'm not sure how much of it is scummy and how much of it is just a playstyle clash that I disagree with so I want to see responses and the "engagement" that she's so desperate to see from me. Well, I'm here now so I welcome it.

[SilverWolf]

VCA is silly

No it isn't. I was caught out in 185 via VCA. I have caught scum before with VCA.

It isn't always effective but in the right situations, it most certainly is.

[LoHa]

UNVOTE:

I'm ready to compromise. My vote joins whoever argues his case best.

[SilverWolf]

I like OceanWind's catch up and don't think he's likely to be scum right now. Moosy and GM are both scumreads of mine and I'd be willing to compromise on lordj. That's where I"m at right now. Not overly interested in anyone else for today. As far as the more time to read GM, that was before her recent posts setting up a scumread on me as I've suddenly become her number 3 with no explanation which is exactly what I was talking about earlier when I said she was doing this. Her behavior toward me and her reads on others is one of the big reasons I think she's scum. Also, there was no wagon movement on Moosy. It was just me so her not liking it was because she doesn't like me (thinks I'm scum) but won't really do anything to try and figure me out. If she was town, she would. It's like everyone is town (for no good reason) except the uncc'd PR, lordj, and me. She'd join a wagon on me but has also admitted she hasn't looked into me yet which says she's willing to lynch me even if I'm town because she's admitted she hasn't looked into me yet. Boo!!

VOTE: goodmorning

pedit: Why do we have to do it for you?

Keep in mind, this is the 3rd vote on GM and it only takes 5 so please be careful on this. No quickhammers.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.14

goodmorning - 3 - Sakura Hana, OceanWind, SilverWolf
LoHa - 2 - MoosyDoosy, goodmorning
OceanWind - 1 - Ether

Not Voting: Mightymandarin, lordj210, LoHa

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2015-10-22 07:40:38)

V/LA: ...

[LoHa]

pedit: Why do we have to do it for you?

I give up on pushing Sakura. I've said everything I find scummy about her, by now someone would've noticed them and joined me if they intended to sheep. If you can't inspire then you are left judging others' prowess at inspiring.

Competition where the best argument wins is healthy at this stage, or at least good for me to assess who is interested in providing good reasons against who, to get a better vantage point for reads later on and form my town block

[Ether]

I don't think goodmorning is scum.

Which puts me in a weird position, because I think I'm already tied to her in some people's minds, and I'm scared that defending her will just make it worse.

[LoHa]

So far we've got SW saying GM's townreads lack reasons / her sudden scumread on SW is scummy due to her not frankly saying SW is scum and making no effort to investigate thoroughly.

[goodmorning]

378 (GoodMorning) - What do you think of Sakura's assertion that she is playing against her meta? Do you agree with it? If so, why are you townreading her based on meta and do you think your read is based on something she can't change? Can you talk about the finer details of this read?

I think she's doing some different things than usual, and that she's trying to react to things less emotionally, but those are big things and not what I'm talking about.
As in 502, words and deeds are not what I'm reading here.
See the end of 408 for any further explanation.

scumhunting =/= effort

srsly

You have been ignoring my scumhunting though haven't you? Don't think I haven't noticed the way you've decided to deal with me this game. And now, you are doing exactly what I predicted and setting up a scumread on me.

What scumhunting? I recall a lot of research and a lot of erratic behaviour but that's not the same thing at all.
And surely I'd have to be some kind of idiot to scumread you as Scum once you decided I was trying to scumread you?

Funny how that works. You know I am hard on people who scumread me when I'm town. As scum you would not want to deal with that. You'd rather set me up as a lynch or ignore me.

As Town, I still don't want to deal with that. But it's becoming glaringly obvious that I'm going to have to.
As Scum, I'd rather ignore you, then NK you first possible chance. I wouldn't bother with you in the first place.

505 (GoodMorning) - Why is MoosyDoosy's preceding post "painfully town?"

Just look at it. I can't remember the last time I saw a newbTownier post than that.

556 (GoodMorning) - Why is your vote going back on LoHa? I've asked for Ether's reasoning which isn't very clear to me and I want yours as well.

Simply put - I read the previous few pages. What I saw didn't look like a PR

at all

.
-more preening than scumhunting
-attempts at divisiveness by being a dick
-seriously, almost no scumhunting at all
-and no attempts to divert the wagon pre-claim by playing better, almost like he wanted to claim
-that whole sakura thing
-and what ether said

Basically, I don't find that his claim matches his play. At all. And since BP isn't confirmable and doesn't even necessarily exist...

I'm ready to compromise. My vote joins whoever argues his case best.

Seriously, what "confTown" DOES THIS??????

I've suddenly become her number 3 with no explanation

You were already number 3 and I think I've explained everyone else pretty well.

Also, there was no wagon movement on Moosy.

The wagon doesn't have to move visibly to gain traction.
The ground, for instance, might have been sloping underneath it.

[SilverWolf]

I don't think goodmorning is scum.

Which puts me in a weird position, because I think I'm already tied to her in some people's minds, and I'm scared that defending her will just make it worse.

You should not be afraid of this if you are town and think GM is town.

[SilverWolf]

As Scum, I'd rather ignore you, then NK you first possible chance. I wouldn't bother with you in the first place.

Thank You for proving my point.

[goodmorning]

I don't think goodmorning is scum.

Which puts me in a weird position, because I think I'm already tied to her in some people's minds, and I'm scared that defending her will just make it worse.

You should not be afraid of this if you are town and think GM is town.

Your idealism is inspiring.

As Scum, I'd rather ignore you, then NK you first possible chance. I wouldn't bother with you in the first place.

Thank You for proving my point.

I don't know if I've made this clear enough: I'm bothering with you. Tonight I'm going to go through all your posts again and decide just what I feel about you.
Like I said, I don't expect it to be positive.

[SilverWolf]

I don't know if I've made this clear enough: I'm bothering with you. Tonight I'm going to go through all your posts again and decide just what I feel about you.
Like I said, I don't expect it to be positive.

Because I forced you into it.

Of course you don't expect good things. You have already decided I'm scum. Now you have to try to come up with some reasons for that.

Oh and while you're at it, you could maybe tell us why you are willing to lynch lordj as well.

[SilverWolf]

I don't think goodmorning is scum.

Which puts me in a weird position, because I think I'm already tied to her in some people's minds, and I'm scared that defending her will just make it worse.

You should not be afraid of this if you are town and think GM is town.

Your idealism is inspiring.

Nice sass but since you didn't follow that up with some frustrated caps locks and making me look like an idiot who doesn't know what they are talking about, then it's not town GM here.

[Ether]

You should not be afraid of this if you are town and think GM is town.

I didn't mean worse for me.

[goodmorning]

I don't know if I've made this clear enough: I'm bothering with you. Tonight I'm going to go through all your posts again and decide just what I feel about you.
Like I said, I don't expect it to be positive.

Because I forced you into it.

Of course you don't expect good things. You have already decided I'm scum. Now you have to try to come up with some reasons for that.

Oh and while you're at it, you could maybe tell us why you are willing to lynch lordj as well.

I could have left you alone, pursued lordj, maybe Mandarin, kept going with a LoHa tunnel. Reading you is a choice. _{which i am already regretting ahhhhhhh}

lordj's play in the beginning stages of this game was underwhelming even by Newb standards - asked duplicate questions, didn't answer some questions, talked some theory but no real attempts to scumhunt, was oddly worried about the L-2 on LoHa, readslist was just weird and also somewhat self-contradictory. Recently his posts have improved, but a. that could be from coaching and b. I'm not sure how much of that improvement is just the upping of sass levels.

Also, in checking lordj it's come to my attention that you misrepped me in a most delightful manner!
When I told him that effort isn't indicative of alignment, I was debunking his townread on you, yes - but I was also debunking his townread on me!
Fancy that!

[SilverWolf]

Also, in checking lordj it's come to my attention that you misrepped me in a most delightful manner!
When I told him that effort isn't indicative of alignment, I was debunking his townread on you, yes - but I was also debunking his townread on me!
Fancy that!

I'm delighted you pointed that out!

He never said he was townreading you based on effort. So that wouldn't debunk a townread on you. Only on me, which is why I mentioned it.

[Sakura Hana]

I could have left you alone, pursued lordj, maybe Mandarin,

kept going with a LoHa tunnel.

Would you look at that.

[SilverWolf]

Nah, the hi was for OceanWind.
I just...don't get what LoHa's trying to do. He has experience, apparently--it kind of bothered me that he was so terse about coming out with it, which is Page 2 logic but was still a part of my initial vote. (Also I already knew at that point that it wasn't very likely to be anyone else, for various reasons that mostly don't say anything about how townish they actually are.)

His 27 didn't really strike me either way. (Now that I'm typing this I keep wanting to talk about how weird it is that he was

asking permission

to vote goodmorning, when I don't see how he'd read her jokey reaction as a town tell if he thought she was scummy before then. And maybe that's true and maybe it isn't, but either way I know I'm saying it from a perspective of being sick of us spinning our wheels and really wanting to find somebody scummy already.)

I don't like his showing after I voted, either. People were exchanging reads by then, and he just dropped in and asked me about my return. He doesn't know me and doesn't strike me as someone who asks things just to socialize, and I don't see the point. Continuing to talk about Sakura's Page 1 vote didn't impress me either.

Asking permission, ey? I don't do that simply because I don't have a superior in this world, i.e. I have no individual, or group of individuals to ask permission from. I was curious how the other people interpreted the response. I suggest you take care not to misrepresent, it might paint me scummy and you don't want that if you're town.
I asked you the question because I was curious, and maybe to open you up a bit and see what you're voting me for. You should realize that if it takes you quite a bit to articulate it it can't be that good.
@Sakura I like to wifom exclusively on day1. Reformulating: Would you say that in your scumgames you'd risk sticking out by providing good reasons to vote when nobody else is?

this almsot sounds like your saying you got a PR (saying it makes you look skummy witch town dont need (you trying to get under the radar so you can use your role>>

Anyone remember lordj saying this? Given LoHa has claimed a PR, does anyone think this means anything? Seems like kind of an odd coincidence to me but I can't decide if it has any significance or not.