Mini 1728: Circus Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #525 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:21 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

In post 438, Performer wrote:
In post 405, Garmr wrote:bluemoon rising is monkey man.

whats the purpose of this post?

Monkeyman is pretty much a chronic VI. :shifty:
I actually wondered if it was him when I came across a couple of his posts in particular. The one about not hammering Trivium was pretty classic. Read any of his town games. He typically flakes and gets lots of flak for his points.

In post 444, Performer wrote:I am NOT liking Angry's entrance. As in the suspicion I have on that slot, he's not done anything to curb my suspicion.

Can you organize your reads? Cause you just did this regarding Aris and it felt much like this post. Arguing points that are fairly superficial or already hashed out by other posters previously.

In post 449, Performer wrote:Bare posts as in insufficient in making me lean town on him .

Mmmmmk, perhaps I disagree with your assessment that posts are bare when you are holding a mostly subjective opinion about the posts but describing them in a way that comes off objective. The rest of this looks like you simultaneously want to pander to me but also be able to vote me if needed.

In post 467, Aristophanes wrote:Does nobody else try to see things from their viewpoint in order to discern meaning from their posts??
*sigh*
I guess I'll just sit over here, understanding Lapsa alone...

There was some recent discussion about Lapsa and people called him mostly null. It occurs to me that you have been the one expressing a townread on Lapsa from the background perhaps. Is that purely meta inspired or....am I totally mistaken about your Lapsa read? I'm not really sure what you see here. Your defense of Lapsa just reminds me that understanding things from his viewpoint is difficult because he isn't posting any indications of WHAT the train of thought behind the posts is. I can only infer so much of someone's reads and intentions when its all minimalistic communication. TL;DR: I'd love to read your dissertation on why lapsa is town here beyond "He has used this playstyle as town before"
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Post Post #526 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:42 am

Post by toolenduso »

Garmr we have 14 hours left, Triv is at L-1 and I've said that I don't want to no lynch. Why do you want to lynch Triv before he claims?
"Half of the game is figuring out who the scum is. The other half is convincing everyone else that you're right." -- PlaysWithSquirrels, in Newbie 437
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Post Post #527 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:44 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

In post 476, Zulfy wrote:I don't get it.

I liked that you were calling out a scumteam so early, even if in jest. It shows that your mind is in the right place and I like that you struck it out instead of just censoring yourself. It shows me that your posts are a natural progression of your thoughts without any editing to cut out something people might find suspicious.

^ Thats a slight overexplanation but I have gotten such an impression at various strengths when reading the majority of your posts.

In post 478, Lapsa wrote:
In post 477, makara wrote:I looked through Triv's past scumgame and his playstyle seems pretty similar here

did same and i disagree, makara

This shit needs to stop. If people are going to start fronting opinions on meta-dives it needs to be more than "Well I read some past games for player X and hes playing
(adverb)
in this game. Its pointless to speculate on that without actually making at least a small case for it and I'm going to start assuming that people are faking meta-dives for towncred if it continues.

is showing a really large amount of awareness and paranoia that dates back to the beginning of the game. The progression that led JarJar to bring this up looks very town. That said, I don't really agree with the conclusion that Zulfy is buddying him. My perspective is going to be different since Im a 3rd party observer to the JarJar/Zulfy interactions, but I absolutely see where JJD is coming from. Specifically in response to /; Moon argued that JJD was making an objectively bad case on Keyser which was scummy and Zulfy was pointing out that being wrong does not mean being scum which is a salient point to bring up. (I'd also disagree that JJD was objectively wrong at that point, but that doesn't matter since this is all analysis of people who aren't me).
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Post Post #528 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:54 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

In post 514, toolenduso wrote:The reasoning posted for voting BMR makes me a little less suspicious of Perf now

Really? What about it did you like? Most of performer's recent content felt fairly uninspired and go-with-the-flow for lack of a better term.

In post 521, Garmr wrote:I don't like the way tool is chainsawing for trivium

I wouldn't say that. Tool has been hard-defending Trivium for most of the game. If he is attacking Triv's attackers, then hes not being sideways about it at all. Calling Triv his top townread certainly gives him some leeway to go after the cases on him which he has? Chainsawing implies that he is trying to dismantle cases on Triv without making it obvious that is the goal.

Ok and with that I'm 100% caught up, let me make a summary.
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Post Post #529 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:01 am

Post by toolenduso »

In post 528, AngryPidgeon wrote:
In post 514, toolenduso wrote:The reasoning posted for voting BMR makes me a little less suspicious of Perf now

Really? What about it did you like? Most of performer's recent content felt fairly uninspired and go-with-the-flow for lack of a better term.


Literally that he could articulate reasons for the vote. Whereas before all he said was that the ISO left a sour taste in his mouth.
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Post Post #530 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:15 am

Post by toolenduso »

The reasons themselves weren't hugely insightful or anything but they supported what Perf said before and I could see them serving as the basis of a towny's vote. Whereas before it looked more like scum taking advantage of a shift in momentum and not having any genuine reasoning for it.
"Half of the game is figuring out who the scum is. The other half is convincing everyone else that you're right." -- PlaysWithSquirrels, in Newbie 437
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Post Post #531 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:15 am

Post by Keyser Söze »

I'll be online for the deadline.

I am unofficially V/LA.
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Post Post #532 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:16 am

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 524, Garmr wrote:Ap vote triv before we get a no lynch
We have 14 hours.
Maybe let them finish catching up?

All this hardpushing of the hammer is something I dislike.
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Post Post #533 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:19 am

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 526, toolenduso wrote:Garmr we have 14 hours left, Triv is at L-1 and I've said that I don't want to no lynch. Why do you want to lynch Triv before he claims?
^^^^^
Lots of this.
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Post Post #534 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:27 am

Post by Aristophanes »

AP, I can do a translation of Lapsa at some point if you like, but it won't be before the day's end.

I have had (rough) conversation though with them and mentioned a few of their posts in plainer English.
My read on them is based in meta, as in, the style didn't surprise me.
The things they are mentioning are town oriented though, which is what supports this read.

They didn't make it to D2 in the game I linked though, and I do hear that they post properly as the game progresses. If this is not seen, I will consider them for lynch because this shit does get old fast.
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Post Post #535 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:44 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

I'm going to list people in roughly T->S order as I think of it.

Toolenduso has been very objectively pro-town this game. Supplying the links to Keyser games is still the most standout indication of it, but providing information and not wielding it like a bat or otherwise trying to make a contriver point off of it is town-motivated. The readslists and points made at various points are well-formed and combined with the effort that went into it all, I really think this is just an obviously town slot. The defense of Trivium in particular seems fairly unlikely from scum, regardless of Triv's alignment.

I read your last bit about me and BMR. I generally dislike meta, but if you've played with MonkeyMan before...this is basically just his MO. Lurk a lot, push fairly superficial observations and get lots of flak for being judgmental about many things (like the hammer post). You mentioned thinking I'm a good scum player and I will only add that I do take pride in my scumgames, perhaps more than most people. I'm town in this game though and mentioning that I have a good scum game isn't going to get you closer to figuring that out. The biggest feeling I absorbed from your last post is that you want to think I'm town but are having doubts and don't really want to commit to it. Thats fine, I've been there at various points in my past. You're gonna have to talk to me though; it feels like you are putting up a barrier preemptively to keep me at arm's length. I'm not gonna figure out my own alignment for you, so lets talk? I really really think you are town here and being pro-town so all the more reason to talk some things out. Unfortunately this Day phase is mostly over, but if we are around Tomorrow I'd like to discuss some things about Performer, Lapsa, and Garmr for sure.

Jar Jar Drinks isn't quite the same level of town for me, but may as well be. I'm seeing a lot of indications that his reads are updating organically and his suspicions all make a huge amount of sense if you look at it from his perspective. The zulfy push that I mentioned about buddying him really stands out as a paranoia that Town is likely to exhibit but scum doesn't really gain too much from arguing. The push on Keyser early on was very much progressing the game state and sticking his neck out. Post really hit the nail on the head as I was reading through that part of the game about Gray who was previously kinda getting by. The points on Lapsa are also pro-town points to be making.

---

Keyser is definitely someone I'm taking a bigger picture approach to reading and the more I read Keyser posts the more I think hes just town. My gut was really torn at some of the early self-defending which felt a bit fake and I was concerned that some of the posting schtick was really a mask to distract from some scummy elements. At this point, I'm convinced that Keyser is mostly carefree and just doing things how he wants with little regard for how his posts will come across, ironically the opposite of my prior opinion. But frankly, just the tone of his posts would be really hard to fake. The zeal, confidence and occasional cluelessness that gets meshed in when someone argues with him would be really tiring to do as scum and while I'm not really able to rule that out as a possibility, I think its less likely than him just being blatant town here.

Zulfy...nothing really specific about Zulfy that screams town to me; I just really like the air behind most of his posts. Hes very analytical but also abridged which makes him easy to understand. Low fluff to content which is refreshing at least if not towny. I like in particular. The only things making me a little concerned are that he was fairly aware of the tunnel on Trivium when called out on it. The refusal to vote BMR felt a little white-knighty, but makes sense in the context of his push on Trivium at least. Sooo I'm reasonably confident about Zulfy being town, but thats definitely a notch below my previous mentioned reads.

Trivium: This read got more town, the more I read. I could pin down a couple things in particular but the self reflection after the meta of Keyser came out felt fairly genuine. I'm largely drinking Tool's koolaid on this slot so rather than rehash that I'll just take a lazy approach and ....link

Aristophanes: I really should have more to say about Aris right now but I'm getting lazier as I write this. The post ? read really town to me. For similar reasons that I thought Tool came off as town, the questioning of the meta links for Keyser aligned with some prodding I would have done around that time. The post seemed very aware of what was going on and the careful developing of the discussion without interjecting personal bias or leading questions looked like genuine scumhunting over fake scumhunting. Aris on the last few pages has been more of a blur to me since it happened all at once and I read it all at once. My main gripe with Aris is the Lapsa read which seems to be like Schrodinger's leopard. Lapsa is town stop harassing him for the playstyle!; but lapsa is actually only null-town because he's...been protown? Really want to discuss that further with him because I'm not sure why hes seeing Lapsa town and when it comes to interacting with people scumreading him, just makes melodramatic gestures in defense of Lapsa without really doing anything to dismantle the pressure. But ya. I generally like Aris's other content and I'm willing to call Aris probably town.

----

Bleh, I'm heading home so I'll be on in a couple hours to move my vote if needed.

Quick summary of everyone else

Makara/Lapsa: Kind of feel the same about both of these. I've seen a couple things that I've liked, but Lapsa is coasting really hard on not explaining things and Makara had a post that I recall thinking looked hedgy. Null and would really like to discuss these slots Tomorrow.

Gimlear: I don't really remember much of anything from Gimlear. Quick skim of the ISO tells me that I should devote some time to thinking about this. Null.

Garmr: Already talked about Garmr previously. Thought his reaction to my entrance was off and the whole spiel about the Trivium wagon was definitely less-than-town imo. I recall thinking that Garmr had some things that I liked so I'll likely go through some of his posts again when I have the time. Leaning scum.

Performer: Stances have been expressed by other people for the most part. The case on BMR and Aristophanes rang bells and especially the Aris one looked like an attempt to open up a wagon there without sticking his neck out. Still not totally sold on that, so null scum.

GrayFoxx: Probably scum? Not sure why Gray managed to get by all Day with minimal amounts of scrutiny. Unfortunately the V/La is alignment neutral. I wouldn't really feel bad about lynching him anyways though because I think hes the scummiest person in the game and he had his chance to post content. The question to Trivium and follow up on why he asked it looked ridiculously scum motivated and the sheep vote on to the triv wagon was pretty much scum behavior.



VOTE: GrayFox for now.
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Post Post #536 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:52 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

After consulting the last VC, I will hammer Trivium to avoid a no-lynch though which sucks but NL is the most anti-town thing possible.
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Post Post #537 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:01 pm

Post by Trivium »

Claiming cop. Doctor should heal me tonight if I live.
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Post Post #538 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:03 pm

Post by Garmr »

UNVOTE: triv
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Post Post #539 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:14 pm

Post by toolenduso »

Yep, pretty much figured this was where we were headed. So if there are no counterclaims, let's hear people's second preferences.
"Half of the game is figuring out who the scum is. The other half is convincing everyone else that you're right." -- PlaysWithSquirrels, in Newbie 437
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Post Post #540 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:15 pm

Post by Garmr »

VOTE: perfomer
For reasons previously stated
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Post Post #541 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:37 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 537, Trivium wrote:Claiming cop. Doctor should heal me tonight if I live.
God dammit.

I don't think anyone should counterclaim this. It's D1. If this is scum then a counterclaim is just a way to draw out the real cop.

I'm not going to be around tonight much, but will check in in about 5 hours when I get back home, and again in the morning just before day's end to make sure we do something.

UNVOTE:
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Post Post #542 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:38 pm

Post by GrayFoxxxx »

Sup guys.
I should probably catch up
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Post Post #543 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:43 pm

Post by toolenduso »

In post 541, Aristophanes wrote:I don't think anyone should counterclaim this. It's D1. If this is scum then a counterclaim is just a way to draw out the real cop.


I had an immediate negative reaction to this suggestion because it would be missing out on an opportunity have a confirmed scum, but now I'm thinking it might actually be a good idea.

In the scenario where Triv is scum, that means that any actual investigative roles (probably) get to use their ability tonight, and then we get to go into tomorrow with both a 1v1 and a result.
"Half of the game is figuring out who the scum is. The other half is convincing everyone else that you're right." -- PlaysWithSquirrels, in Newbie 437
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Post Post #544 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:59 pm

Post by Keyser Söze »

Image

I want to lynch scum.

Still reading (it's midnight here).
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Post Post #545 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:00 pm

Post by Keyser Söze »

In post 542, GrayFoxxxx wrote:Sup guys.
I should probably catch up

Perfect timing :giggle:
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Post Post #546 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:13 pm

Post by Garmr »

Keyser there's more to catch up on hint hint
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Post Post #547 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:18 pm

Post by Zulfy »

Keyser where you from if you don't mind me asking.

I have a lot of soul (read:ISO) searching to do, plus a Law and Order episode to watch. Be back soon.
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Post Post #548 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:21 pm

Post by Gimlear »

Sigh, we have less than 12 hours to lynch someone. Is it better to risk a no lynch trying to find an alternative or lynch a cop claim and hope they're lying?

If not Triv, I would go for a Gray Fox lynch. I was hoping to get more info from him in day 2 since he has been V/LA.

I'm leaving my vote on Triv for now in case we still want to lynch Triv.
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Post Post #549 (ISO) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:24 pm

Post by Garmr »

I'm not opposed to grey lynch but we get no info if he flips town and the chance his scum is 50/50

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