Mini 1729 - History Mafia II END

[Spiffeh]

Yes it's in spoilers.

[Spiffeh]

But even so I don't get how you can be convinced by CotW's post when there are some pretty obvious things wrong with it.

[Dwlee99]

Oh lmao.
UNVOTE: Spiffeh

[Spiffeh]

No I want to know what had you convinced and what in my reply changed your mind.

[Dwlee99]

SW what if he was 11 would that change your mind?

Why does his age matter? This still bugs me. He could be 11 and scum, why can't I pressure him? Classic WKing.

Anyway KT looks like exactly the type of player scum would push to mislynch imo

More of the same.

SW you can't seriously want to lynch this guy

More of the same.

Spiffeh you don't want ari lynched or you want errant under pressure more?

Errant under pressure more. I don't particularly mind Aristophanes lynched at this point in time.

Here comes a scumread on Ari. Where did that come from? Did I miss it? I don't see it before this.

SW do you know why Titus is scumreading me?

Also could you tell her she is wrong?

This is like waaaaay too much concern about Titus suspecting you.

Also SW what do you think of my reads?

TITUS WHY ARE YOU SCUM READING ME?

Btw Plotinus' posts give me twinge my scumdar but I BBT sounded town so I'm conflicted. I really don't like Plot's justification for catapulting me up to a town read.

Again, super concerned about being scumread by Titus. Shows irrational worry about this. Now suddenly BC is suspicious. Here we go again.

Also I will be honest and admit that I didn't read all of Plotinus' posts

I'll do it now and post more in depth about it.

This is upon us asking to join the wagon. I'd expect town to do this first before voting. I get that we asked you to so that does have some merit so I'm so-so on this.

Gdi fine my EP vote isn't doing anything anyway BECAUSE EVERYONE IS IGNORING HIM

VOTE: BeardedCat

Switches to BC while whining about us not paying attention to who he was voting before but saying nothing about his own suspicions of BC if he had them.

VOTE: Aristophanes

ftr I think Scorpious should be the ultimate lynch atm

Then not too long after that, he does this vote. Ari was mentioned as playing elsewhere but he jumped on this like a cat seeing a flopping fish and never says why he thinks Ari is scum outside of being inactive. BUT, Scorpius now needs to be the final lynch. Where did he say Scorpius was a scumread also in addition to Ari, BC, and earlier Errant-did he ever say why Errant was no longer a scumread? I'm having trouble follwing the thought process here and that worries me a bit.





Also Spiffeh, I did find your reasons for suspecting Scorpius. While I have trouble with his picking at KT and dwlee, you seem to think that no one is allowed to scumhunt KT because of his age or they are suspicious. Makes no sense.

Also, the minute I started suspecting you, you insinuated I might be scum for not automatically reading your reasons for your votes and assuming you are town.

Spoiler: Response to CotW

This vote is gross. There is no reason for it. His question was perfectly fine.

Don't say there isn't a reason for it when you quoted the exact reason I gave. If you disagree with the reason (which is what I think you are saying), I get it's not some hardcore irrefutable evidence, but keep in mind that this was post 126. What exactly would constitute a vote that isn't gross? I can also point to your slot's vote at the time and how Titus gave no real reasoning for it. And your Bella point is a stretch. But I'm not going to call these things out because I read them all as efforts to get out of RVS and didn't take them super seriously enough to call them bad and suspect you for them. But you don't feel the same way about mine?

Why does his age matter? This still bugs me. He could be 11 and scum, why can't I pressure him? Classic WKing.

I responded to that in post 483. To be clear, I thought he was obv town and it looked like it was his immaturity (not in a bad way) that was turning people off. Nothing about him looked scummy to me and I still hold to that. I will defend my town reads, like I defended you in Delicious 2 when you were taking heat.

Here comes a scumread on Ari. Where did that come from? Did I miss it? I don't see it before this.

post 371

This is like waaaaay too much concern about Titus suspecting you.

Here is why: post 578

Yeah again, you didn't allow me to investigate him so I could find out for myself if he was town or scum. You got in the way for no good reason. He was in no danger of a lynch at this time anyway.

This is fair. I should have let your interaction run its course before I stepped in.

I get this question. tbh your 371 is a pretty townie post that I am going to give you credit for because I like it.

So you read my 371 thoroughly enough to make this determination but you didn't notice my scum read of Aristophanes?

Switches to BC while whining about us not paying attention to who he was voting before but saying nothing about his own suspicions of BC if he had them.

You quote my reason for suspecting BC in this exact post. Post 559

Then not too long after that, he does this vote. Ari was mentioned as playing elsewhere but he jumped on this like a cat seeing a flopping fish and never says why he thinks Ari is scum outside of being inactive. BUT, Scorpius now needs to be the final lynch. Where did he say Scorpius was a scumread also in addition to Ari, BC, and earlier Errant-did he ever say why Errant was no longer a scumread? I'm having trouble follwing the thought process here and that worries me a bit.

I'll quote my response to the first part that I had already written in response to you asking the same thing:

You also mentioned that you didn't like that I was voting for someone other than who I wanted to be lynched ultimately. And I don't even get why that's a problem. I voted for Aristophanes because you said he was active elsewhere on the site, figured he was still looking at the thread because of that, and voted for him so he'd see that he needed to actually contribute. I still voiced my support of the Scorpious wagon so it wouldn't lose traction (to no avail because KT and Dwlee swapped over to Aristophanes really quickly fsr). I'm not going to vote park on someone, even if I think they are the scummiest, if I think my vote will be of greater use or garner better reactions elsewhere.

Once again, I mention my scum read of Scorpious in post 371. Remember, the one that you liked?
No, I never said Errant was no longer a scum read until later on. But I think it's a little unreasonable to expect me to post about it in the thread every time a read changes. Anyway, I talk more about EP here.

Good lord, look how many people Spiffeh casts suspicion on here? First, it's BC for his Sonic vote. Then it's us for ours. Then it's KT for jumping off Scorpius. Then he decides his scumread on Ari can wait cuz he's not here which is fair actually. Then complains about Scorpius again and says he' lurking off suspicion.

So let me get this straight, Spiffeh is suspicious of:

-BC

-US

-idk what happened with Errant but I think at one time he changed this to a townread which is fair so I'll drop it

-Ari

-KT-I think? Not sure on this one.

-Scorpius

Also Spiffeh, I did find your reasons for suspecting Scorpius. While I have trouble with his picking at KT and dwlee, you seem to think that no one is allowed to scumhunt KT because of his age or they are suspicious. Makes no sense.

Also, the minute I started suspecting you, you insinuated I might be scum for not automatically reading your reasons for your votes and assuming you are town.

Oh come on now this is ridiculous. First of all, who cares how many people I am suspicious of? You think that makes me scummy? This is me scum hunting. I say what comes to my mind. You should know this from Delicious 2. And me asking KT a question does not mean I am casting suspicion on him.

I do not believe that KT should be exempt from scum hunting. I even do it myself as you pointed out. I agree with you that I shouldn't have interfered when you were interacting with him, but I don't think I have exhibited any other actions indicating that people should leave him alone, and nor should they.

And yes I was becoming a little worried about you because you ignored an entire post I had typed up that had addressed almost every single issue you expressed in the post I quoted.

tl;dr It's really hard to overlook how much I had to point you to when you said you were going to read me thoroughly. You're going into reading me with your mind already made up because I am not the spitting image of the last game we played together. Can you at least give some examples of differences you are seeing in my play from Delicious 2? I do understand why you'd be concerned about the KT situation, but that's all I'll give you. The rest of your points are reaches and could be reflections of your preconceptions of me. I think it should be clear from the rest of my actions what I have been doing and what my thought processes have been. So I don't know if that one moment early on scarred you or something, or if there's something more to it. You're attacking what you want to be there as opposed to the content I have been providing, and I can't tell if it's genuine paranoia or not.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

I liked pretty much everything you said in your post.

[Spiffeh]

If I wanted the posts requoted and my question ignored I would have asked.

So you're telling me you liked agreed with everything that CotW said, before you read my post.
Then you read my post and agreed with everything I said?

This seems unnatural.

[Dwlee99]

I didn't quote everything that CotW said?? lol

[Bellaphant]

@ btt, you nitpick mostly as town, yeah, but I also seem to remember every time we've both been town you thinking I'm scum for ages before coming to see the light.

We need to consolidate before deadline, @plot, thoughts on a spiffeh lynch?

[Call of the Wild]

I'm here and about to respond to Scum!BeardedCat so watch out. Fireworks ahead. LOL

[Spiffeh]

No CotW respond to my post first (if you're SW at least)

[Spiffeh]

I still need to read BC's recent posts before I decide to keep my vote or move elsewhere.

ATM leaning toward voting Scorpious.

[Call of the Wild]

Don't move your vote, I got a case coming.

Which post Spiffeh? I've been completely exhausted so I need your help here.

~SW

[Spiffeh]

Look at the post of mine Dwlee quoted above (I'm on a phone or I would grab it myself)

[Call of the Wild]

Nevermind. I see it. Here's your ISO from Delicious http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=26341

What I noticed here is that you kept your vote on Anna until you were sure that your scumread there was resolved. You didn't just vote wherever it looked like a good wagon was about to pop up. I townread you hard in that game. On top of that I was worried about your concern for how Titus was reading you. I felt like you were too concerned with appearance. A few other comments have given me that idea as well. Your interference in my KT vote pinged as well. So did your Errant vote. Some of it was just gut and feeling and paranoia because I haven't been able to read you as town this game and I've never seen you as scum.

As it is, the voting thing has become null. I throw my vote around sometimes, depending on the situation to scumhunt. I poke and prod and make waves. It is of my opinion that you can't flush out scum if you don't do this so if I get on you for moving your vote around, it doesn't make sense if I'm doing the same thing.

So you are back to null. Now let me go catch scum.

UNVOTE: Spiffeh

[Call of the Wild]

OK, I want everyone to take a look at the first few pages here and see BBT going after Grib for a supposed scum slip about his flavor. Hint-BBT was scum, Grib was town.

I'm going to stop you right here. If you're going to try and meta me, you had better do it correctly.

Recent game

Take a look at that game. I pinned someone's (PatientZer0) early reads-list as scummy and questioned Mollie because she was town reading it. Mollie and myself got into a 'pointless back and forth' for quite some time. I

pressed

(read: nit picked) Mollie about the reads-list and ultimately got distracted from it. I was town and Patient Zero was scum.

Another game; BBT caught scum from another reads-list and engaged in yet another 'pointless back and forth'

That is a very, very poor attempt to meta me SW. In summary, I nit pick ALL THE TIME. It's how I play, it's how I find scum. I find a small detail that nobody else noticed and I hone in on it until my read is finalised. I catch scum out for making shit reads-lists all the time - those two examples were just from the top of my head.

This makes me suspicious of Bella because she is trying to use this as reasoning to position herself to join my wagon when she knows full well exactly how I play. Hell, I'm pretty sure in our first game together I tunneled the shit out of her for something pretty small until I realised she was town.

You wanna try again SW?

~BBT

This was my response to your 'meta case'. You have been here and have been posting and have chosen not to respond to this.

This tells me your scum who got caught pushing a bad case.

You are spinning things like I just put that meta comment out about you, then spun it as a scum case against you, and then when I said I was tired it meant I was scum who saw your response to it and was walking away. You assume that's what the case was and that's how you are spinning it. That meta comment was never a case on you. That was a comment in a post where I commented on a bunch of other things. I didn't vote you on that. I didn't try to push a wagon on you on that. I pointed something out, you responded, I was done with it. You are completely ignoring the other problems I have pointed out with your slot and only picking this ONE thing out to spin it as a case on us and it reeks to high heaven.

Oh hey, should we look at what you said here when I went after you for questioning me and then ignoring it when I answered you, OK let's do that:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=60427 This game you said this:

Subject: Open 586: Playing With Elements~ (D7)

1021 - SW, if I'm satisfied with an answer, why would I pursue it further? If it makes you feel better, from now on I will quote a person's response and say 'Thanks for responding, I am satisfied with your answer and will no longer be pursuing this issue. Have a great day.'

More coming, this just points out the hypocrisy with his so called case on me. Stay tuned.

[Errantparabola]

If I wanted the posts requoted and my question ignored I would have asked.

So you're telling me you liked agreed with everything that CotW said, before you read my post.
Then you read my post and agreed with everything I said?

This seems unnatural.

It is.
Dwlee has been going on about lynching Spiffeh a long time before CotW vs Spiffeh and it seems odd that he would drop that read so quickly without giving half of a reason.
Surely Dwlee must have had some reason to have Spiffeh as scum other than what CotW said?
Dwlee, any scumreads now other than scorp?

[Call of the Wild]

Major misrep BBT. I did not justify the reasons others are scumreading you with that observation about you nitpicking things as scum.

I didn't say that. You said this;

I am starting to get the reasons people have been suspicious of you. You come in and selectively quote us and throw down a vote while doing nothing to question us or try to figure us out. That's bad after saying you don't like the voting and after spending time calling others scum.

~SW

This means you can see how people are scum reading us (me) because of my 'selective quoting' and vote on you when it had ONLY JUST HAPPENED. So, yeah, that's exactly what you said.

OK, earlier you asked for an example of you selectively quoting and here it is. You wanna quote that whole paragraph? No, OK I will then.

So yeah, you are scummy. I am starting to get the reasons people have been suspicious of you. Plot sits back and posts all these wordy posts that no on really reads or likes and does pretty much nothing that resembles scumhunting at all. You come in and selectively quote us and throw down a vote while doing nothing to question us or try to figure us out. That's bad after saying you don't like the voting and after spending time calling others scum.

So you left out the problem I had with Plot's posts to spin this to look like I suddenly understand the scumreads on you based on this alone. Also you seemed to have forgotten this. 781 where I laid out all the problems I had with your slot. I'm sure this was just an oversight though right? I mean, why would you say I'm only scumreading you based on one post while leaving out others and then say you aren't being selective? Because clearly you are, and that's scummy.

I brought up an observation that concerned me. You addressed it. I didn't have any further questions for you on that issue.

You didn't even acknowledge my response. You tried to push a case for me being scum based on meta - a very poor case. In fact, you later stated that 'nothing has changed' in regards to your read;

I believe I already explained all my issues with BC in an early post. They haven't gone away.

This implies that you have seen my response and are not willing to reevaluate your read. That's scummy on two counts;

a) the meta case you originally pushed was awful and you quite clearly did not do your homework as my response shows

b) you didn't acknowledge my response. Nothing. To the rest of the thread, this implies you're still scum reading our slot and allows you to jump on our wagon if need be. If I hadn't called you out on it, no-one would be any the wiser. The fact you completely ignored my response to your case is scummy in it's own right.

Nope, my problems with your slot were laid out in my 781. Did you ever address that cuz if you didn't you are a total fucking hypocrite and need rope badly. Those issues haven't gone away like I said. Stop spinning it as scum walking away from a response to one simple comment I made. How about you ask me about it? How about you get clarification for it? That would show me you are scumhunting me in an effort to figure out my alignment, not fabricating a shitty scumread on me. Mega scummy behavior.

You quoted me saying I was tired and said we walked away from you. That's an outright lie. You will not get us lynched so that's just bluster.

Stand back and watch me lynch you.

You did walk away. You had no response for my counter to your case - you got caught pushing a bad case and swiftly turned your attention to Spiffeh.

I was suspicious of Spiffeh before your response to my meta case so this is just you trying to paint this as scum and refusing to see it's town exploring their scumreads and trying to determine alignments.

You also contradicted yourself by talking about others bad votes and make a really shitty one.

This is completely subjective - of course it's bad vote to you, you're caught scum. To me, it's a fucking fantastic vote and in no way contradicts my views of your awful voting this game. What a strange comment that is to make, you're trying to discredit me in any way possible.

No, you called me out on our voting this game while you are throwing your vote around as well and your reasons are weak as hell. What's good enough for you, makes us scum and that's just plain bad.

You also have been pushing Spiffeh as scum but are ignoring that to come after us. No you really haven't laid out the reasons you have a problem with us.

You're right, I did think Spiffeh was scum but your hop on the wagon after trying to attack me is super, super scummy and I'm now much more comfortable voting for you.

What wagon are you talking about? I was the only vote on Spiffeh. I gave my reasons for that as well.

I got more. Let me get it all in before responding please. I'm breaking this up.

~SW

[Dwlee99]

If I wanted the posts requoted and my question ignored I would have asked.

So you're telling me you liked agreed with everything that CotW said, before you read my post.
Then you read my post and agreed with everything I said?

This seems unnatural.

It is.
Dwlee has been going on about lynching Spiffeh a long time before CotW vs Spiffeh and it seems odd that he would drop that read so quickly without giving half of a reason.
Surely Dwlee must have had some reason to have Spiffeh as scum other than what CotW said?
Dwlee, any scumreads now other than scorp?

I can go reread if you want me to pick out specific reasons I thought spiffeh was scum earlier. I don't really think I need to, though.

And I'm leaning scum on you.

[Call of the Wild]

You finding it hard to leave the thread? Scum just can't help but defend themselves...

BBT has said many times that being defensive is not scummy but look at this. Oh, suddenly defending yourself is scum. Just another example of total fucking hypocrisy. Here let me get you a couple quotes of him saying that.

From the earlier game I quoted:

Subject: Open 586: Playing With Elements~ (D7)

Defensiveness does not equal scum though.

And this game:

Not really, no. Being defensive is a null tell.
~BBT

Another example of your hypocrisy. Not done yet though. Hang on.

[Call of the Wild]

My case on CotW has nothing to do with meta and everything to do with how they tried to approach me/lynch me. I also have very little faith in meta and I try to avoid using it at all costs but when I'm attacked with meta I have to defend with meta.

Again, I wasn't trying to lynch you with that but you keep saying over and over I am. You are selective casing instead of reading me as a whole and that's scummy because it spins evidence to fit a read you already decided on instead of looking at the evidence and seeing if it fits.

How does SW referring to 3 players effect their read on me? I'm not getting the correlation you're making there? I'm talking about SW's read on me and me only.

Do you think scum make things as obvious as possible? Do you think they shout their plans from the rooftops? The point is to do things subtly, slyly, quietly so as not to draw attention to themselves which is exactly how SW went about their meta case on me. Now they have to engage with me because I called them out on their bullshit. They might have pursued other directions, but they very clearly left the door ajar to return to their scum read on us if the game state warranted it.

See this is you putting the idea out there that what we did was scum and scum motivated without listening to what Sir Bastion is doing which is explaining why it could come from town and isn't a scumtell of any kind. This is just saying we are doing something and because scum COULD do it, the only answer is that it MUST be scum instead of realizing it CAN be and IS town.

~SW

[Call of the Wild]

VOTE: BeardedCat

Fite me.

[BeardedCat]

Is that it? Are you finished? Can I rip you apart now?

[Call of the Wild]

Nope, I'm gonna lay out my case on you first and then bring it on. So be patient.

~SW

[BeardedCat]

I'm waiting.

I absolutely cannot wait for this.

[BeardedCat]

I'm sorry, I can't help myself.

As it is, the voting thing has become null. I throw my vote around sometimes, depending on the situation to scumhunt. I poke and prod and make waves. It is of my opinion that you can't flush out scum if you don't do this so if I get on you for moving your vote around, it doesn't make sense if I'm doing the same thing.

So you are back to null. Now let me go catch scum.

UNVOTE: Spiffeh

Before I even get to your response I want to flag this up; clear buddying from SW to Spiffeh. Spiffeh was contemplating leaving our wagon (or at least re reading our slot) and SW figures that the best way to keep him on it is to stop scum reading him and retract the vote. Note, it's now a null read, not a town read. A town read would be too far. It's subtle things like this that people are not picking up on. It's really good scum play but not good enough to get past me.

She also has to pull back on her hypocritical voting so she can call me out for hypocrisy. I'll get to this in a later post though. All of their moves are calculated, I fear that once we get killed CotW will run this game.

~BBT