Newbie 1656 : Game Over

[Ether]

He's competent scum, and I'm not. Even if I were, I can't imagine faking the knots I tied myself into at that deadline. There are some things that no scum would ever be stupid enough to do.

I'm open about my history, he's not, and he has

very clear things to hide

. Ask him for the link.

[SilverWolf]

OceanWind-Can I have the link to your offsite games?

[OceanWind]

OceanWind-Can I have the link to your offsite games?

I don't want to post links to offsite games. That's not changing. Judge me by my actions in this game and by reading my two completed games on site. If Blitz isn't enough, read the other one.

---

@Silver, if you think it'll help I can make my case. I'd hate to be the deciding mislynch after that high of lynching GoodMorning D1. The overview is basically this:

1. My actions and motivations have helped the town. Ether's actions have helped the scum. Occam's razor points to her. She's really good at selling herself as town motivated and has a genuine uncertainty and town tone. She knows how to paint her actions as pro-town and use convoluted explanations to pass them off but no matter how much I can't capture her enigma, the fact remains that what I did was honest, and what I did put a dent into the scum's chances of winning and boosted town chances. Ether is either lying about her competence as scum or her definition of competence based on 10 years of experience is a whole different level than what my definition is.

2. Despite Ether's attempts to twist my scum meta, I specifically told my partners in the Blitz game that bussing was overrated. It's not that I made "big plays," it's that I think scum's best chances of winning is to have everyone alive as long as possible because different scum will click with different townies and that can be useful in endgame.

3. GoodMorning was townread by several players. MightyMandarin had her as the only townread among the experienced players. Moosy was unwilling to lynch her. The lynch may not have happened if I didn't back you up; besides that by trying to sway you onto GoodMorning, I actually winded up making you look less scummy which I would never do as scum. EVEN IF I wanted to distance from GoodMorning, I'd have voted GoodMorning and shut up so that lordj could get lynched and I'd get towncred from lynching her the next day.

4. With two scum alive, they have a better chance of avoiding the jailkeeper and this is optimal play. Look at how me and my partners avoided the town roleblocker in the Blitz game by having the least suspected partner perform the kill. Killing GoodMorning ensures that I'd put all my eggs in one basket which is hugely suboptimal to having both buddies alive, so Ether's claim that I'd lynch her just so I could find the jailkeeper is nonsense.

5. You say I was being opportunistic here. I can tell that you didn't read the Blitz game and only read the ending because my play there (quickhammering a townie I claimed to townread) is nothing like me being around to put an L-1 vote on a player I made a case on and wanted lynched.

6. Sakura Hana kill points more to Ether than me because Sakura would have been my last option for a kill. If not Ether, I would have killed you because Sakura was less likely to vote me than you due to your pre-existing suspicion. Secondly, when town re-read the game, they remember all the things that happened over the course of the game. When Sakura got to the point where she called an Ether/GoodMorning scumteam, she absolutely would have taken that into consideration. I think that's part of the reason Ether killed Sakura.

I don't know how much more obvious I can be to show you that I'm town here through my actions in this game. Don't let me down now.

[OceanWind]

He's competent scum, and I'm not. Even if I were, I can't imagine faking the knots I tied myself into at that deadline. There are some things that no scum would ever be stupid enough to do.

I'm open about my history, he's not, and he has

very clear things to hide

. Ask him for the link.

It's really crappy of you to pretend that I'd try to use offsite games for an advantage. It's like saying I pretended to have a family emergency so I don't have to post as scum.

[OceanWind]

vote: Sakura Hana

.:theatrics:.

Now this is just golden, why vote me instead of helping me bus GM if you're scumreading us both? Or...

Are you afraid to bus?

And im pretty sure this vote was totally not triggered by a certain VCA threat performed by someone last page, nope not at all.

This post is a reason why I wouldn't kill Sakura Hana.

Read through the Micro game I finished. In 3 way LYLO I told Firebringer that his replace in reads would have been accurate if he was town because his biggest scumread was the other townie in LYLO and his second scumread was my partner who we had lynched in 5 way LYLO. That plays into people wanting to be right about their initial reads. That's what convinced me that Ether was playing off of your suspicion of me for putting lordj at L-1.

[Ether]

I'm saying that your home forum can probably shed a lot more light on what your bussing habits really are, because they're definitely more nuanced than you're making them out to be. Saying that you're withholding a relevant part of your meta is nothing like claiming you lied about your situation offline.

I have like four scumgames in total, and I flaked from two, broke down upon being voted in a third on two different occasions, and the last was my first game on the site. Seriously, I'm physically incapable of drawing scum, I do not actually have experience in that department. It's weird, but you can look it up.

Being incredibly transparent as town, though?

That

I can do. I've only been mislynched once.

For the record, I don't actually have anything against OceanWind's vote on Day 3. I do, however, think that he spent that entire day coasting while the rest of us actually worried and secondguessed things and took leaps of faith.

Sakura Hana wasn't the only person who suspected me at some point in the game. I was always going to be in for a fight, and killing me would have lost him his easiest mislynch.

[Ether]

The bottom line is, there are valid reasons that people don't bus, and there are valid reasons that they do. He could have probably kept goodmorning alive, but not doing it wouldn't have sunk him--as we've seen here.

I don't know the exact reason that he chose to bus her. I don't think we

can

know. It was an initiative that he chose to take when he didn't have to do it. But scum can do that too, and coming from a guy who fakeclaims masons and quickhammers people he thinks are power roles before they can claim, you shouldn't put it past him.

I do think you'll have better luck trying to understand me than trying to understand him--it's what I wound up doing with you.

[OceanWind]

Ether is mischaracterizing my play on D3. I had lordj as a scumread and made a case on him towards the end of D2. He was who I thought was scum and who I wanted lynched. Other people may have correctly nailed Ether as scum but Sakura Hana was the only one who correctly called the scumteam so early on in the game. It's only natural for people to go back to their earlier reads when in LYLO because they want their early reads to be right. Sakura Hana took considerable pride in how she caught Ether avoiding a GoodMorning vote and it's safe to say it would have been a big factor in her final decision.

Contrary to what most people believe, defending a partner and derailing their lynch isn't all that damning. As you can see with Ether's case, despite almost turning the D1 lynch of her partner into a mislynch of lordj who was an easy target on D1, she's still alive and kicking with a decent shot at winning. Bussing D1 is poor scumplay not just because you lose a partner but also because getting too much towncred too early can backfire as people wonder why you are still alive. Setup and power roles mitigate this to some extent but on balance, it's not worth it. Ether claims I make bold plays as scum. I make bold plays as scum to advance the scum wincon. I quickhammered a townie I thought was a power role because it advanced the scum wincon. I defended my partner and later fake-claimed Masons together because it advanced the scum wincon. Hard-pushing a scum lynch advanced the TOWN wincon.

Ether is trying to dodge this fact by instilling paranoia about me shoehorning my "bold moves" into this game while ignoring that the moves I made as scum are nothing like the pushes I've made here. I also think her subtle implication of "don't try to understand him" is a below the belt shot that you should ignore because I'm a player like any other in the game. I have a wincon. Ignoring me isn't the way to win especially not when we're both town in LYLO.

[SilverWolf]

I didn't realize lordj had completed games. May I see?

Disclaimer: I will probably never read them. Fortunately I'm like the third player to bring up meta publicly, so maybe someone else will!

In theory I believe in meta! In practice I don't really have the attention span to sit through games I wasn't in, and even if I did, my scumdar probably still wouldn't pick up on any scum that wasn't a direct and current threat to my own wellbeing. Since I have played exactly one game since anyone else here was even on the site, I'm out of luck.
But

still

.

i played games on another site replaced into one game here but was replaced out when i had to leave for i think 8 days for honeymoon or 4 days for miitary i cant remember off top of my head now

I know about the on-site one! I also know that it's ongoing, and I'm more looking for examples of your town game.

Ether, You spend a lot of time this game asking for and looking for meta. But you also mention in these posts that you don't think you'll take the time to read games and don't feel like you'd be able to scum hunt based on meta like this.

So why is it so important for you to get OceanWind's games?

---------------------------------

To both of you, I promise not to drag this out. I'm just ISOing GM, Ether, OW and if I have any questions, I'll ask.

Also, read through that blitz game-at least the parts that were relevant and OW did vote for one of his buddies twice but both times moved to town wagons which tells me he doesn't really like to buss his buddies to a lynch.

[SilverWolf]

It really sucks that every single person in this game knows the answer right now but me. :/ Like, I'm sure the whole dead thread knows it by now. Whichever one of you is scum has knows all along and whichever one of you is town now knows.

I am going to go through the game and see if ANYTHING at all jumps out to me to push things one way or another and also since I read OW's scumgames (I would LOVE town meta but w/e) I will look more closely at Ether's as well.

Then I'm just going to decide. I see very good reasons for OceanWind to be town here. I mean ALL his posts are town motivated and advancing a town wincon. If he did that as scum and wins because of it, then I guess he deserves it because it's a huge gambit for scum on D1 in newbies and that doesn't make sense.

Big points for Ether are the fact that she is very, very open and transparent in her though processes and if feels genuine. I don't get the feeling she's trying to manipulate me or lie and her style of writing looks town to me. If she wins her and is scum, then I guess her scum game has improved a lot and she deserves it as well.

I'd be bummed if I picked wrong but whoever is scum here is playing really, really well BUT I think after reading some more, I'm leaning toward going for motive. Ether says she's not good at scum. Well, maybe she made a mistake in trying so hard to save her buddy. Or maybe, she truly believed GM was a PR. I'm gonna keep that in mind around the lynch there and see if her actions make sense from that standpoint or not. That might be key here.

Anyhow, I'll try to get through my reading as quickly as I can and like I said, any questions and I'll ask.

[Ether]

Yes,

it's important. I don't have the attention span or the kind of scumdar that will let me sit through a whole game, but it can still take objective facts down just fine. I can look through people's quicktopics/PTs as scum, I can note their activity and run calculations on it, I can look for things other people have said about them and what they've said about themselves. It's what I did with you. If OceanWind is really so anti-bussing, I can find that.

But he's lying. He's initiated busses before, and he did it here.

If you read 771, take special note of the timestamps. The game actively threw off my sleep schedule because I hated posting in it so much. Here's my quicktopic for it, since I couldn't find that in the thread.

[SilverWolf]

I have absolutely no meaningful opinions on goodmorning, which is weird because most of what I do have is from things that revolve around her in some way.

I have no real feelings as yet about Ether and Silver, or the mans.

OK so both of these quotes are GM and Ether not having opinions on each other which is totally fine at this point in the game.

my studious "kick the READ GOODMORNING can down the road you don't have to care about this yet don't worry" campaign is still going strong, sooo.

Let us continue this "I'll do it later" quest as comrades!

OK, So here they pledge not to read each other yet which I actually find kind of strange.

I think I Townish read Ether now.

A townread on Ether here.

I think you (talking to GM) (and lordj) are probably town, by the way.

Now look Ether is townreading GM.

This is scummy. Town would never say things like this, even if thinking them.

Actually, I think every time I've seen that, it was from town. I can give links--I can think of at least four examples just off the top of my head, one of which was me.

My 16 year old self was such a mess.

This quote is town though because a scum motive would of been to let me continue with this but instead she was helping both myself and lordj here so I'm just noting this for now.
-------------------------------------------------

Also, GM's scum meta suggests she doesn't bus, at least in newbie's much as scum. In 1644 she said she didn't understand her partner, briefly suggested he may be scum while hard pushing a townie and saying they were for sure scum, then later saying she wasn't interested in a wagon on her buddy which suggests she has no problem defending and townreading her buddies as scum.

Her behavior toward Ether this game so far at least is to townread her. Her behavior so far regarding OW is to welcome him but not say too much-like her response to his first wall was to say it didn't strike her one way or the other-this is going from memory, I haven't gotten to that part in the game yet, when I do I'll quote it.

OK, I'll get back to this more later. I have to take my daughter to school and do other things for a bit.

[Ether]

Actually, I was talking about townreading Moosy, not goodmorning.

[SilverWolf]

Ha, That's what I get for selectively ISOing 3 people. OK, guess I'll stop with that and read the whole thing.

But you are right-You were not talking about GM so that pretty much invalidates that point I was making which is good. I can discard it.

[Ether]

I mean, my interactions with goodmorning are still going to get embarrassing later, don't get me wrong, and not all of them will be over the power role thing. But yeah.

[SilverWolf]

I did look at 771 a bit and I'm torn. Ether certainly is capable of making genuine looking posts like she is in this game as scum. The beginning of that game she was very strong and looked pretty townie. She slacked off quite a bit though mid game and when she came under suspicion, she pretty much disappeared and did one post that looked like AtE and that's it. Here she's a lot more engaged than that game.

[SilverWolf]

OK, looking at a town game of Ether's-the one she linked where she made it to lylo and I'm also torn there as well. She was very active and engaged like she is in this game which makes me lean town on her here. She also asked for meta a lot like she is here that I didn't see her do in her scum game. She was pretty obvtown-actively questioning people, making cases, being aggressive. She isn't quite as aggressive here or asking as many questions of people but her ISO in this game looks a lot more like her town meta than her scum meta.

If I went by meta and posting rates and post content and how genuine someone is-I'd go with Ether is town here and Ocean just decided to bus.

If I went by meta (Ocean not being willing to bus his partners to a lynch like he did here) and MOTIVE (which is huge to me) I'd say Ocean is town here because he clearly went after GM and intended to lynch her and never wavered from that. He unvoted me after re-reading and realizing I was town. He helped direct me back onto GM when I was wavering which he has zero motivation to do as scum and in doing so, helped me look a lot better than I would of in lordj was flipped and then GM was lynched later. Almost all of Ocean's posting in this game is town motivated. This is HUGE with me and makes me want to think he's town out of the two of them. I wish I had town meta but otherwise that's my only reservation.

So, like I said, I'm gonna read through the game one more time and see if ANY little thing sticks out at me that I should be concerned about or makes me lean towards one of you or the other and like I said, if I have a question, I'll ask.

After that, I'm just gonna make a judgement call and hope I'm right.

[Ether]

I was posting once a day in 771 in the wee hours of the morning because I hated even looking at that thread. My style of typing was the same--different from 2015, but close enough not to stand out to people who knew me in 2009--and I could string things that looked like logic together, but that was all I had. Everything under the surface was just gone. The contrast between that and my play here should be blinding.

I think my personality in general is softer than it was in the old days. You can look at Chosen for a comparison, although I was a hydra there. (I did sign everything and post hydralogs at the end, though.)

OceanWind is lying to your face. This isn't crossvoter rhetoric, this is something you can prove. He's not linking to his offsite games because he already knows they'll condemn him. The fact that he doesn't bus in literally all his games doesn't mean he won't take it when he can get credit for it, especially in a constrained setup like Matrix6 where the factors he was talking about like being too obvtown (only one vanilla has been shot all game) don't apply. There are reasons we expect people not to bus--just like there are reasons we expect people not to fakeclaim masons--and OceanWind is someone who knows how to take advantage of them.

[OceanWind]

I glanced through that game of Ether's to see what was going on. Knowing she's scum here, I can't help but agree that she's improved a lot. Ether said she was sixteen when she played her first game which I assume is in 2006 since that's her join year. The scumgame we're talking about was many years ago in 2009 featuring a teenage Ether who was still trying to get her bearings. Even then, she had a natural knack and talent for looking town as scum though she didn't have the stamina to play like she did here. I appreciate how much she's grown since then and blossomed into a well-rounded player.

Ether trying to pass off her teenage incompetence as comparable to her meta now tells you she's being intellectually dishonest. I have not one but two completed scumgames so there's meta of me available. Ether's demands that I link my offsite games is a distraction that she hopes to use to cover up the fact that her motivations in this game has been to help GoodMorning. She's an intelligent enough player to come up with elegant explanations for why she was defending GoodMorning. We're talking about a grown person here, not a teenager. A grown up with some nine years of experience playing mafia under her belt minus some years that she didn't play.

A Matrix6 setup doesn't have any more power roles than the average 9 player setup. Power roles exist in any setup and the concern of being too obvtown is always there. There were times I actually worried that GoodMorning was going to flip scum. As you read Ether's posts around GoodMorning, read mine too. I was worried that Ether was setting me up to take the fall upon a GoodMorning townflip. That's probably something that never would have occurred to me as scum. Chaining mislynches based on your partner's townflip is ludicrous and in fact, if I were bussing, I'd have tied Ether to GoodMorning so I could get a mislynch to offset the bus. Ether also can't beat my logic that all the bold plays I make as scum have been to help my team whereas my play here helps the town. She's using a combination of paranoia, understating how much she would have improved growing up, and eloquent writing to cover up the basic fact that despite her natural town-sounding tone, beneath the surface, her play has been to help scum.

[OceanWind]

I mean, you're actually saying "when I was a kid, I flaked from games and broke down." You don't even need to have played mafia in the intervening years to get a better appreciating for social dynamics and gain maturity.

[SilverWolf]

Ugh............You guys are making this extremely difficult for me. After lynching GM D1, I really don't want to be the one to lose the game if I pick wrong.

The stress.....................it's real!!

I know people say it's just a game but damn it, I'm a super competitive mafia player and I hate losing and I especially hate if I'm the one to make it happen like that one game where I quick voted town in lylo and lost the damn game for town-a game that had been going for months and was soooooo hard fought and I was so upset with myself.

It would be less traumatic here but I don't want to lose this game for town.

Still have to read the game though. I promise not to drag things out.

Ocean-is there a reason you don't want to link your offsite games?

[OceanWind]

Yeah, privacy mostly. I'd never do it for an in-game advantage.

[Ether]

Please don't psychoanalyze me again.

I was already an established player by 2009--that was three years on-site--and I had plenty of towngames to compare. Some of them I was a mess in, but overall there was a huge contrast. I won a scummie in 2009, and while I'm not particularly proud of my play in that game--I was inaccurate and kind of pissy--I won it for the passion that shines through in my town games. The fact that I even did as well as I did in 771 was because people who knew me expected me to be

even worse

as scum.

Now I'm supposed to have jumped from that to this, with no scum games in between, with only one completed game in the past four years at all? The bus is the only reason you're ranking OceanWind higher than me.

People bus.

It's a lot more common than them faking all the brain glitches I went through, or even dreaming them up. Seriously, talk to me about that. There is no way in hell that would have even occurred to me as scum.

Threaten to vote him if he doesn't post his offsite games. See what comes out. Seriously, he's withholding them for a reason. If this were just a distraction, he would have posted them already!

[OceanWind]

Uh, you grew up? If you learned a game as a kid and were decent at it and know all the fundamentals, added maturity and knowing how people interact will only help you as an adult. It's not the fact that I voted scum that makes me town. I'm not averse to doing it as scum. It's how I played around the GoodMorning lynch that would be jumping through so many absurd mental hoops, that I don't think it would even occur to me to consider, let alone play them out. Namely, getting SilverWolf to switch back at the last minute and worrying about you taking advantage of a GoodMorning townflip.

[Malakittens]

Official Vote Count

Ether

(1): OceanWind

OceanWind

(1): Ether

Not Voting

(1): SilverWolf

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-11-28 21:45:00)